View Full Version : The mystery of the missing thousands

06-01-2014, 02:08 PM
article from Richard Oldroyd on the dwindling attendances at Turf Moor - see link - view external link (www.clarets-mad.co.uk/feat/edb3/the_mystery_of_the_missing_thousands_820774/index.shtml)

06-01-2014, 02:18 PM
Interesting article, Richard.

If my family is anything to go by, crowds should increase in the second half of the season.

My cousin and his mate, who did not renew at the end of 2010-2011, have bought half season tickets in their usual seats just in front of me, and my sister, who has never had a season ticket before, has also bought one for the seat next to me.

That's three more, anyway!

06-01-2014, 02:28 PM
Aren't we averaging roughly what we always do at this level?

Might be a few down because STs went on sale when we were utter garbage last Spring, but generally I'd say they were about where I'd expect.

06-01-2014, 02:28 PM
dwindling? Last week we had 14000 on , a few months ago we were talking about sub 10,000 crowds.

In the promotion season it wasn't until after Christmas that the crowds started to rise.

06-01-2014, 02:37 PM
"In the promotion season it wasn't until after Christmas that the crowds started to rise."

There were over 16,500 for the Boxing Day game against Barnsley in the promotion season.

06-01-2014, 02:43 PM
I've checked

Boxing Day is the 26th December &

Christmas Day is the the 25th December

So the crowds did rise after Xmas

If you want to be pedantic...

06-01-2014, 02:49 PM
Interesting article, but don't agree Burnley has a particular style of play that suits the club and is enjoyed more by the fans. Also the argument doesn't really stack up if that's what RO thinks most fans want to see - why aren't they turning up then? Money is the obvious answer to that I suppose.

For me the more gung ho Coyle/Ternent sides were more Burnley than the current lot. Keegan-style 'we'll score one more than you' football. When I think of 'typical Burnley' it's teams that always had a go, always aimed to win games even if we had no right to, always fought like dogs and always had flair. Not sure the current team, as successful as it is and entertaining as it is in its own way, matches that.

Dyche strikes me as essentially a pragmatist, which is fine. We're solid and compact and that makes us hard to beat and impossible to hammer, and we rely on moments of quality from our best players to win matches. That's worked well this season. But does it get people into the ground?

06-01-2014, 02:54 PM
Good article Richard and one with which I can identify because I made a decision not to renew this season purely and simply because of the amount of money I was spending on fuel with regular trips to the Turf and also for child-minding duties in Sheffield. Something had to give and it had to be the football except for the odd occasion.
Missed it like hell but luckily have had a change of circumstances and my wife treated me to a half-season ticket and I look forward to my football once again.

Many fans, however, will still be feeling the pinch with the cost of living having increased so much and they will be picking and choosing games.

Our average home League gate this season is 12454 which is 474 down on last season's average, however, at this stage of last season our average home League gate was 13769 even though we were languishing in 13th place with 33 points.
This means that, compared to this stage last season, there have been 15780 fewer fans through the gate.

06-01-2014, 02:59 PM
There simply isn't 'missing thousands' but there are some ST's missing.

What you would think is that with us doing well that we would have a couple of extra thousand coming on.

The reason we don't have that couple of extra thousand coming on is purely down to the ticket prices. If you want to use the promotion season as a marker then for a big game in that season you could get in the Longside upper for ?23, this season for a 'Gold' game it's ?32/33.

Edit - What's going on these days with trying to put a pound sign on this board?

06-01-2014, 03:08 PM
Sorry just had a look and we've only had one 'gold' game, so my point isn't as valid as I thought.

06-01-2014, 03:13 PM
In the last 3 seasons, to a lesser degree as time passed, the crowds stated were higher than the actual crowds that were on the game, as the effect of the Premier League season caused some less than fanatical fans,to buy season tickets, but they did not always attend.
So in 2010/2011 a stated 14000 crowd was a times 14 but at times 12+ or 13+
Now a crowd figure is as it says it is cos the only people that have by in large bought ST's intend to use them.

P.s I have no issue whatsoever with people purchasing, or not, ST's, whatever their situation,or how they choose to use them, it's their prerogative, I just think the higher ST sales distorted the actual crowds...

Have attending crowds dropped, not really.
Are less people paying for a seat, yes.
Will both rise from now, probably, hopefully... UTC

06-01-2014, 03:21 PM
we don't play like what i consider to be a traditional burnley team because we don't play with 'proper' wingers.

the best teams we had as i grew up were the ones with wingers: francis/harper, tin man/eyres, little/moore, elliott/eagles.

football has changed though, there's not many teams who do play that way anymore.

06-01-2014, 03:21 PM
The promotion season our average home League gate was 13082 and this was boosted considerably with the last three matchces which averaged 15982. The previous 20 matches we had averaged 12647 which is slightly more than this season.

06-01-2014, 03:26 PM
2008 - 2013... State Pensions have risen by 20%+
Wage increases 8%
Utility costs...40% +
Inflation ???

3 out of the 4 things above has also increased for the club I would have guessed.

My only complaint re the pricing for next year is that whilst many good things have progressed - 12 mthly payment plans (albeit with a bitter admin fee), flex tickets (which help those who miss more than 6 games a season - no effort has been made for increasing volumes of bums on seats by offering cheaper tickets dependent on volumes of sale.

I think I have read that ?3k was paid out to fix our own seats which were destroyed by our own fans...Thats 6 ST sales cost to the club.. Costs of utilities have gone up etc also.

The club will argue that you can see the club for less than ?20 a game.
The club will argue, if you can't afford a ST all in one go, there are several ways of purchasing - 12, 10, 3 months etc.
If you can't get accepted for credit, you can still get a season ticket through a credi

06-01-2014, 03:37 PM
the unlinkable recent interview with Lee Hoos is well worth a read if you want to know why ticket prices are as they are, although clarethomer has covered quite a bit of it.

worth searching out.

06-01-2014, 04:57 PM
In response to post no 6 bleeding claret

Boxing Day is the 2nd day of Christmas only so not after Christmas.

06-01-2014, 05:00 PM
May I take this opportunity RogerEliHatTrick to wish you a happy Christmas, for what's left of it.

The Bedlington Terrier
06-01-2014, 05:10 PM
Burnley has a population of roughly 75,000 of which an ever increasing proportion are not culturally into football. It's not rocket science!

06-01-2014, 06:05 PM
'...Burnley has a population of roughly 75,000...'

as anyone spotted that Old Trafford could accommodate that many? >;)


06-01-2014, 06:25 PM
"Sorry just had a look and we've only had one 'gold' game, so my point isn't as valid as I thought."

There in does lie a problem though,it's the paying public's perception that nearly all Burnley home games are in or around ?30 to attend.Ticketing pricing really does need to be simplified

06-01-2014, 06:35 PM
This is not aimed at Burnley but all football clubs including Rovers,actually especially Rovers of recent times .
Its funny how more fans can afford to attend when the team is doing well !!!!

06-01-2014, 06:43 PM
I agree that admission prices should be simplified and everything should be geared towards encouraging the "walk on fan".
At the moment, the opposite is true.
It is no coincidence that gates started to drop when the Gold,Silver and Bronze games were introduced.

06-01-2014, 08:53 PM
Just read the article.

There seem some strange thoughts / ideas in there.

06-01-2014, 09:07 PM
I recommend reading the article that the quoon refers too.

Hoos comes across really well in it, and you would have thought that something that helps debug the myth of our ticket prices would be more accessible.

06-01-2014, 09:12 PM
But no mention of the Cynic's view that the 'declared' attendance is nothing short of a tax dodge.

How about a Clarets Madder on each turnstile leading up to kick off with a 'clicker' in hand counting the people going in. Or would that get the Board in a bit of a sweaty panic ?

06-01-2014, 09:37 PM
"But no mention of the Cynic's view that the 'declared' attendance is nothing short of a tax dodge"

A valid point and I think there have been two or three classic examples this season of exactly that.

The latest being the game on New Years Day that Richard makes reference to in the article. It was clear to everyone around where I sit that there were more in the home ends than the previous Blackpool game and Huddersfield brought considerably more than Blackpool. We all said, as Richard states, that this was a gate in excess of 15,000 and yet the official attendance was some 500 less than Blackpool.

There was an even more blatant example earlier in the season where some suggested that the people using the cash turnstiles were not included in the declared gate. It certainly makes you wonder.

06-01-2014, 10:28 PM
I suspect it is more an issue of demographics than anything else.

Burnley's population has decreased by around 12% in the last 10 years and so the pool of potential supporters has shrunk.

Additionally, the population that is retained is ageing. A lot of younger people leave the town to go to University/College or to seek better employment prospects and never come back - a fidelity is lost. The older generations with higher affinity for attending games eventually die off (brutal but true). The club have previously recognised this in part by having offers that appeal to youngsters. The problem lies in their retention - because of the issues above , and also the replacement of the old guard.

I have never been convinced by the cost argument per se. It is used when a team isn't performing but a lot of people try and find the cash from somewhere to attend games when the team is relatively successful. The uplift of attendance for the QPR game is perhaps a good example. I don't doubt that s

06-01-2014, 10:33 PM
Montevideo -- I agree with all of that.

06-01-2014, 10:50 PM
I'm not convinced by the idea that the population of the town and its shift in demographics is that important in terms of attendance. Not only is the catchment area for Burnley much bigger than the town itself, but I don't think moving away from the town necessarily stops people going on either. I don't think there's anyone in our little cluster of ST holders that lives in Burnley, but nobody has stopped coming on.

As with people who complain about the prices, if the club gets promoted it wont be a problem for people who live out of town to get to the Turf.

It really is simple. Going to games is an easy habit to get out of, more and more people have got out of it after the boost in 2009, and it will take a lot to convince them to come back. As much as we all want to believe they're going up, it's probably a bit early for a lot of people to buy back into it at 27 quid a pop or whatever. There's no sense blaming people for it, if they come they come and if they don't they don't.

Not s

07-01-2014, 10:21 AM
Absolutely bonkers people can't link to the LH interview that's been referred to. I'm biased but should be required reading for Burnley fans.

07-01-2014, 10:28 AM
A few years ago there were 18k or so people who would regularly attend Premier League games. I don't think many of those people have gone away, it's just that 6k of them are less sold on regular Championship fare.

07-01-2014, 10:46 AM
There are so many reasons why people are not attending football matches these days. In his thought provoking article, Richard merely touches upon a few of the obvious ones but, for me, football is losing its appeal throughout the Country.

If you ask people who no longer attend football matches the question "WHY", it is obvious that finances will come out top by some way but the spirit in which the game is being "played" has deteriorated in recent years. It now appears obligatory to challenge the Ref and gripe on about "poor decisions" that cost us the game. This needs to be redressed. Bring in Rugby League Refs. No arguments then!!!

The gulf between the haves and have not is widening even more season on season. Perhaps a European Super League IS the answer whereby the BIG boys with their Billionaire owners can play with themselves (sic)

I could go on with other reasons but I am sure others can come up with many more.

The days of football being the working man's game are drawing t

07-01-2014, 11:05 AM
What's the sense in a 'tax dodge' when we don't pay tax on losses?

07-01-2014, 11:12 AM
In my opinion it is mainly down to finances and particularly the grading system that we are using.

My last three home games have been Barnsley ?25, Blackpool ?29 and Huddersfield ?29 giving ?83 total.

My last two away games were Huddersfield ?23, Wigan ?20 and I am going to Yeovil on Saturday at ?20 giving ?63 total.

That is a whopping 32% premium to watch the clarets at home rather than away and is not acceptable in my opinion.

I know someone could choose a different set of games and come up with a different answer but that is my personal experience.

I will not be going against Sheff Weds on the 18th because it is another ?29 game but will be going against Brighton and probably Millwall which are Bronze ?25 games.

07-01-2014, 11:16 AM
"What's the sense in a 'tax dodge' when we don't pay tax on losses?"


07-01-2014, 03:26 PM
Supercarrots, you could have bought a standard 6 game flexiticket and got your games for 20.83 per match, then your three games would have cost you 62.50 in total. That way you'd have saved 50p plus all your travel expenses.

07-01-2014, 03:49 PM
I thought this was a thread about our missing Premiership monies.

07-01-2014, 03:54 PM
Halffullclaret -- that has been discussed more than enough on here. It is spent, mainly on wages, repayment of loans which some directors never thought they would get back and compensation for getting rid of a manager. You can only spend it once and we have.

07-01-2014, 06:30 PM
jambomackemclaret says
"For me the more gung ho Coyle/Ternent sides were more Burnley than the current lot. Keegan-style 'we'll score one more than you' football. When I think of 'typical Burnley' it's teams that always had a go, always aimed to win games even if we had no right to, always fought like dogs and always had flair. Not sure the current team, as successful as it is and entertaining as it is in its own way, matches that."

The current Burnley team has outscored all but three other teams in the division and has the joint best goal difference of all. If you don't think we always have a go, always aim to win games always fight like dogs and always have flair (in some players at least ) then I have to assume you are not watching this team at all.

07-01-2014, 07:22 PM
I went on maybe 7 or 8 games in the promotion season, but I didn't go on once in the prem.It's expensive, but I don't blame the club... Just the way football is at the moment.

07-01-2014, 07:36 PM
I think PapaBendi has nailed it. We've got about as many fans coming in as we're going to in the Championship.

PS. If anyone really can't work out the Gold/Silver/Bronze thing, maybe you could ask any nearby 10-year-old to explain it to you ? It's about that complicated.

07-01-2014, 08:25 PM
Strangely enough we have the best away attendance in the division! 19512

07-01-2014, 08:35 PM
Celts, do you mean that games where burnley are the away team, that the home side generally get their best gates?

07-01-2014, 09:34 PM
It's probably more like we've played the best supported home teams away already;

Leeds, Brighton, Derby, Forest, Leicester are the top 5 home gates in the league and we've played them all away.

More generally, we've played a lot of the toughest away fixtures, QPR being the stand out one followed by...Blackburn who now have the 7th. best home form.