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Rowls
18-08-2014, 07:55 PM
Surely nobody else in the entire universe who isn't a Chelsea fan thinks it was a penalty.

Just because he manages to kick Heaton a little bit with a trailing leg as he dives doesn't equate to a free kick.

Kgun5
18-08-2014, 07:57 PM
In spite of the ridiculous embellishment, I'd want that call.

Rowls
18-08-2014, 08:04 PM
Add to the list Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher.

It just isn't a penalty. The rules of the game are very clear.

It has to be a trip or a kick.

It was neither.

He threw himself to the floor and got touched whilst doing so.

Happyclaret12
18-08-2014, 08:53 PM
the lad was diving then got caught...perfect call from the officials..but these cheats should be sent off...end of story...problem solved forever.

Mk1Golf_BFC
18-08-2014, 09:02 PM
Absolute tool he said at one point, "you know who I've been impressed with?"

Go on then... Duff? Signed for 50k a hundred years ago. Arfield goalscorer, Huddersfield reject signed on a free transfer?

"Cesc Fabregas" ...Well then, wow, thanks for the input you bonehead. How much are they paying you to say that?

2Hot2Handle
18-08-2014, 09:14 PM
Smith for me is the worst co-commentator ever.

Rarely anything interesting to say, and such an incredibly dull voice.

Thought Costa was cute dragging his right leg, and 9 times out of 10 he'd probably have got the decision - thankfully not this time.

wills_claret
18-08-2014, 09:38 PM
sorry, that was a penalty. It certainly wasn't a booking for Costa. And yes, I'm a Burnley fan. I agree with Neville and Carragher though - in real time it looks like a dive.

Berbs78
18-08-2014, 09:41 PM
Watch it again in the morning when the glue's worn off

KeighleyClaret
18-08-2014, 09:41 PM
Definitely a pen, he certainly didn't dive after flicking the ball over Heaton with his left foot; Heaton then caught his right.

Certainly not simulation either. He should get the yellow rescinded (though he can't).

permafrost
18-08-2014, 09:43 PM
cock-nose smith is an annoyance yes, but he's not Andy Townsbellend.
thank ****, sky would lose half its subscribers overnight.
lets see what smithy has to say when arsenal and leicester get tanked
by chelsea.

merlin1
18-08-2014, 09:49 PM
This is what I like about being a Burnley fan, slagging other people rather than bickering between ourselves!

Jerseypaul
18-08-2014, 10:02 PM
That was an excellent decision from the ref who had an outstanding game tonight.

The player blatantly dived before getting clipped and leaving his leg there for Heaton to tap.

Smith, Neville and carrachhhher need to condemn this behaviour before it gets even more out of hand.

It's easy for the ref. if the player leaves his leg for the GK to 'clip', the ref should signal an immediate free kick for the defending team as 'technically' the attacker has kicked the GK's arm. I bet FIFA won't go for it though but it would give the officials a good excuse not to give a pen.

Re costa, I would have said the same thing if it had been up the other end for us.

dsr
18-08-2014, 10:31 PM
Not a penalty. It's not in dispute that Heaton touched Costa, but if you check the rules carefully, touching isn't one of the fouls that lead to a direct free kick. Not even if you call it "making contact" - it isn't a foul.

What is a foul, is tripping. If Heaton tripped Costa, then it's a foul. As replays show, Heaton touched Costa's back foot, and yet the reason he fell is because his front foot failed to hit the ground. Nothing Heaton did affected Costa's front foot, so it was a dive, not a trip.

socrates
18-08-2014, 10:36 PM
It was a penalty.

ralphpom
18-08-2014, 10:44 PM
no it wasn't ..

HatfieldClaret
18-08-2014, 10:45 PM
No penalty. kicked the ball away from goal then went for the dive over Heaton. Normally would be given when Ref's get intimidated by the big clubs. last time in the prem we had some bad decisions against us, as do others, swings/roundabouts...

The ref has to be sure to give the penalty. If we can't agree then how can the ref be sure.

sheffieldturfite
18-08-2014, 11:05 PM
Not a penalty for me but there will be a lot of incidents like this and most will go against us. The moment Costa took to the air it was a dive and a free kick, then the touch by Heaton onto the trailing leg was after the ball was dead.

That kid Costa won't be far from the headlines this season I suspect, for several reasons.

SNB
18-08-2014, 11:15 PM
Be interesting to see the comments if it had gone against us.

beddie
19-08-2014, 07:58 AM
Not a penalty for me. Oliver got it right.

RammyClaret61
19-08-2014, 08:38 AM
We had Martin Tyler & Danny Mills commentating. Both thought it was a penalty. But I hate Mills comment "he was touched, he had every right to go down" sorry, I thought you had to be BROUGHT down.

I thought it would be given. But thought it would've been very harsh. I think Oliver got it right.

the_quoon
19-08-2014, 09:00 AM
i had an even better view than michael oliver. fortunately, he called it absolutely right.

rank bad cheating from costa.

thelifeofbrian
19-08-2014, 09:10 AM
hes ok Alan Smith.

I was in a pub with a few Chelski fans and they didnt think it was a pen.

Me...well ive seen them given and if it was at the other end id be annoyed if the ref made that call against a burnley player

army88
19-08-2014, 09:15 AM
To be fair to the ref,

He looked straight to the assistant and he shook his head and said not a pen,

So really the liner made the decision and he was directly side on of it,

Truthfully Costa was looking for it and that's why he didn't get it , I admit I thought it was at full speed, but after watching slow motion he was def trying for a pen , so deserved the yellow and no penalty.

tybfc
19-08-2014, 09:19 AM
socrates - what are you on?

LancasterClaret
19-08-2014, 09:22 AM
Its one of those "modern pens". Drives fans up the wall.

God knows why he didn't just take it around him and slot it in.

socrates
19-08-2014, 09:32 AM
What am I on? My high horse.



Apologies. That's you.



The pundits in the studio all felt it was a penalty. Every neutral I've spoken to today at work thought it was a penalty.

A penalty can be given if a player trips or attempts to trip an opponent in a manner adjudged by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force.

So the questions are :-

Did he trip him? In my eyes, those looking through non-Claret tinted spectacles, yes he did.

Was it careless, reckless or excessive? I'd say it was careless.

On that basis, and under the laws of the game, it's a penalty.

the_quoon
19-08-2014, 10:15 AM
i'd say, also through non-claret tinted glasses, that he didn't trip him - costa was going to ground before heaton touched him.

as lancaster said, no idea why he didn't just carry on and slot the ball in.

i don't think it was careless either, he went for the ball then tried to get out of the way. its a contact sport which many pundits seem to forget - touching is not a foul.

certainly open to interpretation though and we've all seen them given so ty's harsh response is a bit odd.

for me, costa was on his way down before heaton touched him, thus it was a dive and a yellow card.

Bin_Ont_Turf
19-08-2014, 10:20 AM
I thought that it was a penalty on t'Turf in real time.

I've seen it since on the gogglebox and it isn't a penalty. And it wasn't anyway.

thewellernut70
19-08-2014, 10:35 AM
The pundits in the studio all felt it was a penalty. Every neutral I've spoken to today at work thought it was a penalty.

A penalty can be given if a player trips or attempts to trip an opponent in a manner adjudged by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force.

So the questions are :-

Did he trip him? In my eyes, those looking through non-Claret tinted spectacles, yes he did.

Was it careless, reckless or excessive? I'd say it was careless.

On that basis, and under the laws of the game, it's a penalty."

The two people who more importantly didnt think it was a pen was the ref and the linesman,and for me they were both spot on

dsr
19-08-2014, 10:44 AM
If Costa fell because of the touch by Heaton, it's a penalty. If Costa chose to fall because he felt the touch, it isn't.

I've seen rugby players get touched like that and they never fall down. Costa fell because he wanted to.

yesTHATironingboard
19-08-2014, 10:44 AM
did he cause him to fall over?

no. i'm depressed that anyone could think that is a penalty.

if you want a soap opera i suggest you watch coronation street.

braindead
19-08-2014, 10:45 AM
100% not a penalty - right decision given by the referee and linesman. There was slight contact, by which time Costa was already going to ground and THAT'S the reason the penalty wasn't given - he was also right to be booked as well.

As has been mentioned above: stay on your feet, hurdle or round the keeper and score, no need whatsoever to go to ground with Heaton's fingers only just brushing Costa's leg - .

Massive let off for Heaton and Ben Mee by the way, but ultimately the right decision.

claretspice
19-08-2014, 12:13 PM
One observation - its odd that so many people, many of whom suggest on other threads on other topics that football supporters shouldn't have opinions on things and should defer to the experts, are completely disregarding the views of pretty much every independent pundit on this incident who have had the opportunity of watching countless slow-mo replays of it.

Personal view is that its a pen 6 times out of 10. Don't think its stonewall, think Costa drags his right foot deliberately, but I also accept Gary Neville's point that Heaton is flying out of his goal, making himself big and at the very least forces Costa to take evasive action.

I'm not sure these decisions are every binary right/wrong issues - there are lots of grey areas and I think this falls into one.

yesTHATironingboard
19-08-2014, 12:45 PM
there are lots of grey areas and I think this falls into one.

mana for the tinpot journalist.

cheating has become an intellectual debate.

socrates
19-08-2014, 12:52 PM
The two people who more importantly didnt think it was a pen was the ref and the linesman

And as we all know, they never make mistakes.


Here's another two questions :-

I. Did he touch the ball?
II. Did he touch the man?

You have to answer no and yes to those questions. Once you've done that it's hard to argue it's not a penalty.

The pace he was going at, the speed Heaton was going at, it's going to take him down and on that basis it should be a penalty.

AndyattheTurf
19-08-2014, 12:55 PM
I played five a-side for the first time in a whole last week. Its really hard to make someone fall over if they don't fancy diving. These are strong, athletic men we're talking about. As mentioned above, the touch by Heaton didn't make Costa go down, Costa wanted to go down, and was doing so before Heaton got to him (as evidenced by the rigid right leg that was skimming along the floor toe down, heel up before Heaton's arrival). The touch, if you watched the replay in slow-mo, was so slight that all his right foot did was a minor wobble. Not enough to make him lose balance, certainly not enough for him to not be able to put his leading foot down.

The real problem here is that pundits are reinforcing the idea amongst the public that any touch in the area means a player has the right to go down. Of course the player has the right to go down whenever they want, but the Referee therefore should have every right to send the cheating bugger off.

yesTHATironingboard
19-08-2014, 12:56 PM
touching a player is no case for a penalty.

causing him to fall is.

did he cause him to fall? that situation exemplifies everything that is wrong with football.

a player blatantly cheats and a large section of the customers lap it up.

Boliclaret
19-08-2014, 01:15 PM
If thats a penalty then I'm dismayed for the state of the modern game.

There wasn't too much protest from Costa, the chelsea players or fans. Heaton never touched him and Costa went to ground by force of habit.

A non debate in a well refereed game.

RogerEliHatTrick
19-08-2014, 01:48 PM
Not a penalty

Walton
19-08-2014, 02:59 PM
I thought it was a penalty in real time, and having seen it umpteen times still think it was a penalty.

A massive giveaway was Tom Heaton's reaction. He sheepishly took himself away to the touchline and stayed there til everything died down. If it was a dive, Heaton would have let Costa know. He's certainly done that in the past when someone's dived over him.

socrates
19-08-2014, 04:21 PM
Yep.

The fans with their hands over their mouth behind the goal were a clue.

Absolute bat**** mental on here if it had been Ings and Courtois with the same outcome.

yesTHATironingboard
19-08-2014, 04:35 PM
perhaps those fans have had their views just as distorted as you clearly have on what exactly merits a penalty.

and your parallel universe argument is meaningless.

just answer this one question: did heaton cause costa to fall over?

stevie2112
19-08-2014, 04:43 PM
How many times do you see a player running towards the ball with one foot dragging on the floor,unless it is about to be 'clipped' by a goalie.Never,I would say.

claretspice
19-08-2014, 04:45 PM
"just answer this one question: did heaton cause costa to fall over?"

According to the likes of Neville, who know a thing or two about this, yes.

Personally, I don't think its that simple. Costa probably could have tried to stay on his feet. But I'm not convinced he played for contact until he saw Heaton was going to be in his line of travel, either. How far out of his way is he obliged to go to stay on his feet? In hurdling Heaton he'd have probably lost a split second to regain his balance, all the while whilst the angle got tighter, so the chance gets more difficult.

Thats why its so difficult to my mind and its always going to come down to a personal judgment about whether its a pen or not, rather than a clear matter of right or wrong.

Socrates has a point though, we'd have been screaming for a pen at the other end.

yesTHATironingboard
19-08-2014, 04:53 PM
Personally, I don't think its that simple.

it is precisely that simple. the whole issue of 'contact' is an awful distortion of common sense.

it is cheating. black and white cheating.

costa and others exploit the fact that a large percentage of viewers are gullible.

rather than 'get up you softy' it's turned into some semantic debate.

if i trip you i cause you to fall. if i don't then you choose to fall.

i find the gullibility of people that see the same thing i see yet come to an obviously wrong conclusion infinitely more exasperating than the actual cheating.

claretspice
19-08-2014, 04:59 PM
OK. If you want to make it that simple, its a foul. See Socrates' questions on the other page, Heaton sticks his right arm across Costa's path, doesn't get the ball, does make contact with Costa. Would he have made contact but for Costa dragging his right leg to ensure he made contact?

No-one knows for sure, but quite probably. Would he have been inconvenienced by changing his stride pattern to ensure he didn't make contact? Almost certainly.

So at that level, Heaton impedes Costa. Simple as that.

Is it enough to make it a foul? That's the difficult, subjective bit. You can't make it an objective binary matter of right or wrong beacuse it simply isn't.

yesTHATironingboard
19-08-2014, 05:07 PM
you're right. it is subjective.

but so is the question of the quality of the godfather part 3.

there are those that will debate its strengths vs its weaknesses and there are those that realise it is utter shyte.

costa dived. if you don't realise this i don't respect your judgement.

claretspice
19-08-2014, 05:13 PM
"costa dived. if you don't realise this i don't respect your judgement."

Okey-dokey. Fair enough. See above comments, I guess, as to my view on whether it was a dive or not.

MrTopTier
19-08-2014, 05:18 PM
As an aside to the debate of diving and going to ground. Stan Collymore has challenged Gary Neville to find footage of him diving and should he find some and the case be proven. Collymore has said he will stop broadcasting.

Berbs78
19-08-2014, 05:21 PM
Re-name the thread title to yesTHATironingboard is a prat

yesTHATironingboard
19-08-2014, 05:24 PM
done.

Rowls
19-08-2014, 05:24 PM
Socrates,

"A penalty can be given if a player trips or attempts to trip an opponent in a manner adjudged by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force.
So the questions are :-
Did he trip him? In my eyes, those looking through non-Claret tinted spectacles, yes he did.
Was it careless, reckless or excessive? I'd say it was careless.
On that basis, and under the laws of the game, it's a penalty."

You've researched the relevant law(s) but your interpretation is plain wrong.

Did Heaton trip Costa? Correct question. Wrong answer. How you think he tripped him is beyond me. He evidently dives and throws himself to the floor. Obtaining contact whilst diving is not the same as being tripped. Football is a contact sport.

Was Heaton careless, reckless or excessive? Again you've asked the right question. Again, you've got the wrong answer. "Careless, reckless or excessive" doesn't relate to footballing matters, it relates to matters of safety. For

The Bedlington Terrier
19-08-2014, 05:25 PM
I honestly thought it was a penalty!

Boliclaret
19-08-2014, 05:25 PM
Does that mean that if Gary Neville can't find any footage he'll quit instead?

Fingers crossed.

sheffieldturfite
19-08-2014, 05:35 PM
There are many instances of refs knowing a lot more about interpreting the laws of the game than Premier League pundits, players and managers. I suspect this is one of them.

It's obviously a debatable one and we would have been yelling for one at the other end.

However, Costa looked to have a bit of La Liga left in him. He wasn't hurdling Heaton, he had knocked the ball away and was hanging in the air hoping for a contact. I maintain my view that the whistle should go for the dive first, then the ball is dead so if Heaton clips him it is incidental. I suspect that refs this season are clamping down on players doing this, hence the booking.

Wonderful that every game this season can now be analysed at 5 frames per second, meaning now we can clear all these up immediately - or not :-)

melbritt
19-08-2014, 05:49 PM
What a waste of money...32 Million for a player who can`t win a penalty in those circumstances. XD

On a serious note did he jump for a challenge at all last? Seemed like he backed into our defenders throughout the game.

Rowls
19-08-2014, 05:55 PM
"Wonderful that every game this season can now be analysed at 5 frames per second, meaning now we can clear all these up immediately - or not"

Yes.

The copious over-coverage of football is actively changing the way the rules (laws) are being interpreted.

So because the likes of Neville and Carragher can slow the incident down to a near-standstill and spot that Heaton brushed Costa's leg for a few milliseconds they somehow now believe an offence has occurred.

It's an easy conclusion for them to come to because it means they don't have to call out anyone for cheating. They're all old pros and they're all part of the same unofficial "union" in that respect.

Very few players, ex-players and pundits have the backbone to call these cheats what they are - cheats.

Much easier to say "well, there was contact so he's entitled to go down". No he isn't.

Not until the laws are changed.

socrates
19-08-2014, 06:10 PM
YTIB - I've quoted, verbatim I may add, the laws of the game. How that comes to be a distorted view I'll never know.

Rowls - did he trip him? He was on his feet, he connected with him, he went down. That's a trip in my eyes.

Was he careless? Of course he was. He didn't mean to connect with him so he was obviously without care.

I'm struggling to understand how this isn't a penalty. He was through, at speed, there was no contact with the ball but there was with the man - it's a penalty, clear as day. Costa has no duty to try and stay on his feet if he's clipped at that speed and I'm reassured that every neutral who has seen it has said it was a penalty.

I understand supporting your team but this goes beyond myopic. And I absolutely guarantee you would not hear the end of it on here if the roles were reversed.

Rowls
19-08-2014, 06:23 PM
Costa does not have a duty to stay on his feet but he does have a duty to play in a gentlemanly manner.

You believe:

"He was on his feet, he connected with him, he went down. That's a trip"

There are two problems with this interpretation.

1. It assumes that 'contact' is equivalent to 'trip'. It is not. Football is a contact game.

2. The contact that occurred did not cause Costa to fall over. He did that himself.

In case you want to know what a trip looks like compared to a professional footballer flopping into the air like a salmon, here's a link to some moronic schoolboys tripping somebody up.

Note how the the trip causes the boy being tripped to put his hands down to protect his fall. Costa put his hands up.

Note how the contact changes the tripped boy stride (because it's an actual trip). Costa's stride didn't break, beacuse he wasn't tripped. It was aptly balletic.

Of course we 'wouldn't hear the end of it' if the roles were reversed but not from me (B

scouseclaret
19-08-2014, 08:12 PM
Not only is it blatantly obvious that Costa deliberately dragged his foot along the ground in order to make contact with Heaton, he actually shows no interest in following the line of the ball after he has chipped it over Heaton. The ball goes slightly off to the right, but Costa carries on running straight on.

I don't see how, if a player so deliberately engineers contact with an opponent, it can be construed as a penalty.

the_quoon
20-08-2014, 08:28 AM
"On a serious note did he jump for a challenge at all last? Seemed like he backed into our defenders throughout the game."

really odd behaviour from costa, never seen any other player do this before.

every aerial challenge he ran at his opponent looking directly at him, not once did he look at the ball.

i wondered if its a way they get cheap free kicks in la liga, bouncing off the defenders?

couldn't see a reason for it otherwise as all he's going to do is foul the man.

dsr
20-08-2014, 09:06 AM
Part of the problem, socrates, is deciding who made contact with whom. If A touches B, then by definition B touches A. I think you're edging towards the belief that touching is a foul if and only if one of the players ends on the floor. Therefore the thing that causes the foul isn't where that players touch each other, it's that one man has "earned" the foul by throwing himself down effectively.

Referees have the same problem, and it leads to vast inconsistency. You often see a player shielding the ball from an opponent who comes up behind him and touches him from behind. (Keep it clean, gents.) If the man with the ball flings himself forwards, he gets a free kick; if he uses his strength to play on, he doesn't. It's inconsistent because whether B fouls A should not depend on A's reaction.

wheelbird
20-08-2014, 11:22 AM
Keepers should be allowed to come out "forcefully" a la Adam - after all, they're about to get kicked in 'th ed.