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ElmstClaret
23-10-2014, 04:32 PM
Ward to slot into LB must be getting considered by dyche surely? His game against zee Germans must at least guarantee him a start over mee.

BillyHamilton66
23-10-2014, 04:38 PM
Why would you drop Ben Mee?? :?

army88
23-10-2014, 04:44 PM
I can see the point of this tbh, I think for Ben a lot depends who plays in front of him to give him cover/help.

I still think mee might be better at centre back for a go.

mkmel
23-10-2014, 04:44 PM
Thought Ben Mee had a decent game against both Leicester and West Ham so see no reason to drop him no matter how well Stephen Ward played against Germany and Leicester

claretspice
23-10-2014, 04:48 PM
Why would you drop Ben Mee?

Well, much as he's done fine defensively, there is an argument that Ward's just as competent in that department, but adds more going forward.

It was obvious against West Ham - and they aren't the first - that they were perfectly happy to allow Mee possession of the ball and to leave the left side relatively open, safe in the knowledge that if they shut down our attacking threat down the right, they'd neuter us.

Assuming Arfield, who is more a scorer than creator of chances, goes back to the left flank when Marney is back, theres a strong argument that he and Mee lack the creativity betweeen them to give us sufficient threat on that side.

Mee is another who fits into that category of players who is doing OK, so it might seem harsh to drop him, but who equally isn't making an overwhelming case to stay in the team. Fact is that I could 8 or 9 players who don't 'deserve' to be dropped, yet we're 2nd bottom with no wins and 4 points from 8 games, so the

ElmstClaret
23-10-2014, 04:49 PM
Ward played in a side that held the world champions to a draw, think the question should be why would you play mee ahead of ward? He done great in the championship but we got to be playing our strongest 11 or else we will be in the bottom 3 for most the season. We have to be ruthless and act quick or else we will drift away.

ClaretTony2014
23-10-2014, 05:15 PM
"Ward to slot into LB must be getting considered by dyche surely?"


Are you really serious? Ben Mee playing really well right now and is the obvious choice for left back.

joe14
23-10-2014, 05:20 PM
I thought Mee was auditioning for Bambi on ice on Saturday. How West Ham didn't score when he tripped himself up in the box I'll never know.
Inconsistent.
Still saying all that he does have his moments.

jedi_master
23-10-2014, 05:25 PM
Mee is one of the few players that I feel is starting to show he is capable at this level.

Certainly would not drop him - excellent in the last two games.

ElmstClaret
23-10-2014, 05:27 PM
And if all this time were playing mee but ward does offer us more, think that's where were going wrong. No one is saying he isn't good enough but the fact that ward could be better in that position

claretspice
23-10-2014, 05:48 PM
"Are you really serious? Ben Mee playing really well right now and is the obvious choice for left back."

He's doing fine, but I think its a stretch to say that he's performing 'really well' at the minute and I don't think there's too much reason to question whether someone is serious when what he's proposing is that we bring in an international left back who has just acquitted himself well against the best team in the world and who has played over 100 games at this level compared to 8.

I wasn't massively smitten with the signing of Ward, but having brought him in and got a promising performance from him out of position at Leicester, it seems to me entirely reasonable to muse on whether he might offer a more polished and experienced all-round option down our left side, however adequately Mee might have been so far.

ClaretTony2014
23-10-2014, 05:51 PM
As far as I'm concerned he's playing really well. Outstanding at Leicester too. No, it's not a stretch at all.

Jamb0MackemClaret
23-10-2014, 06:56 PM
I don't think Mee has excelled really, in fact he's regularly looked the weak link in the defence, if not the team. We've conceded nine in the last three. I agree missing Marney has had a big impact, but are we going to stick with a defence that's started shipping three a week on average? Those clean sheets feel a long time ago now. Even when I think Mee has played well we've conceded goals from his wing. I'd play Ward.

spice, why would Marney being back mean Arfield moves to the left? Lost me with that one. Boyd left and Arfield right, can't see that changing as much as I'd like to see a 4-3-3.

The Bedlington Terrier
23-10-2014, 07:00 PM
Mee is one of the bravest players I have ever seen in A Burnley shirt. Ben looks like he would willingly die for the cause. He is an excellent player and deserves the shirt. Ward looks the part but will have to wait his turn. Where does Danny Lafferty now fit into the scheme of things?

Boliclaret
23-10-2014, 07:20 PM
Had an absolute 4 out of 10 shocker imo against WBA, his response in the last two games speaks volumes about his character. One of our better performers this season and he'll continue to get better.

warksclaret
23-10-2014, 07:28 PM
Its a difficult one as Ward has more experience,very composed and when attacking will put in a great cross as he has played wing and striker

I think SD will stay loyal, as he has the ability to play indifferently then come back and play a binder ie WBA then Leicester(against a great winger)

However if Ben should get injured I think he would struggle to displace Ward

Personally I would prefer to bring Chalobah in even if it means playing Marney and Jones in a 3 and playing Ings, Boyd and Barnes up front

Bin_Ont_Turf
23-10-2014, 07:41 PM
If fit then this team all day long...

Heaton
Trippier
Duff
Shackell
Mee
Marney
Jones
Arfield
Boyd
Ings
Juke

garfunkal
23-10-2014, 07:55 PM
Why drop Ben Mee , maybe something to do with the fact he is constantly caught in possession and out of position , apart from that he is fine .

Bin_Ont_Turf
23-10-2014, 08:21 PM
It's one stupid extreme to another with you Garfunkal.

'constantly caught in possession' my arse.

claretspice
23-10-2014, 08:23 PM
"spice, why would Marney being back mean Arfield moves to the left?"

Because Boyd played on the right on Saturday and had his best game for us, and Arfield's as comfortable on the left as he is on the right if not more so.

Tony - sooner or later we're going to have to face up to the fact we're second bottom of the league, and winless, have scored one goal from open play all season (the Chelsea goal being a second ball from a corner) and have now conceded 9 in 3. I don't think Mee's done badly at all, I don't think any of them have, but I don't think everything in the garden is rosy.

If Ben Mee was doing very well, then given the time and space afforded to him on our left side, he'd have produced a healthy number of dangerous balls into the box. I don't believe anyone can say that hand on heart he's offering that.

I'm not saying I would drop Mee, in fact on balance I probably wouldn't, because I'd bring in Keane for Duff and I wouldn't want to disrupt half the back four, but given t

Decades
23-10-2014, 09:02 PM
No way would I drop Ben Mee, he's stepped up to the challenge of the higher level and will get better.

thedonz
23-10-2014, 09:13 PM
I think there is value in the proposal of replacing Mee with Ward for Sunday. In my opinion you cannot boss a game and then concede 3 goals without some change at the back.
Heaton and Duff also need to step up their game based on recent performances.

warksclaret
23-10-2014, 09:17 PM
Ben is one of my favourite players. The PL is very clinical though. Last week Tripps produced a string of great crosses giving us some of the best goal chances to date. At the same time the West Ham fullbacks both delivered killer crosses that won them the game

Teams in the PL need fullbacks that can attack and defend and I suspect Ward is capable of doing both better than Mee.

3putt
23-10-2014, 09:30 PM
I thought Mee looked completely out of his depth in the first few games. He has improved in recent games and is a decent defender, but others have said,very weak going forward.

I find him a constant source of frustration when he is involved in attacks and failing to deliver.

Would perhaps be harsh to drop him right now, but he is definitely a weak link in the team because of his lack of attacking prowess.

sheffieldturfite
23-10-2014, 10:40 PM
I wonder if Ward had played 100 games for us and Mee 100 for someone else before signing in the summer, would we be saying that we cannot contemplate dropping Mee?

I think he has done OK but I think Ward is a better player and his extra attacking nous may lead to more goals. If Dyche lets emotion guide his thinking it will lead to the job centre so he has to pick who is genuinely the best choice.

barracuda
23-10-2014, 10:46 PM
Ward in for me too

I hold back on saying this cos i really do like to back our players and not be negative... but i see Mee as a weak link at this level. I don't think his touch, passing and control is good enough on the ball. There... I've said it and don't like to say it

Dyche needs to make this decision

DiBranchio
23-10-2014, 11:15 PM
Infamy, infamy.
They've all got it... ...

Bin_Ont_Turf
23-10-2014, 11:28 PM
So we've got some 'Ward in for Mee' fans saying that Mee offers nothing in an attacking sense and others saying that he's the weak link defensively.

Reading all that it comes across as though Mee is all o'er place, which he isn't.

It comes across as though a scapegoat has been found for our winless goal conceding side, just because there is a genuine capable replacement at the ready.

When Mee has a shocker then Ward will come in, but recently Mee hasn't had a shocker so there's no need for change yet.

I find it quite hilarious when some say that Ward will offer more going forward, as though they've seen plenty of him.

fidelcastro
23-10-2014, 11:44 PM
I think that must come from people reading that Ward started his career a striker, but how many years ago was that? :/

From what I remember of him at Wolves he was seen as rather a 'steady Eddie' sort of player rather than a marauding left-back. I know he's played at left-wing too but that is no guarantee he'd be any better than Mee at LB.

He also has the two successive relegations on his CV too! :O

mkmel
23-10-2014, 11:53 PM
I would say that Ben Mee warrants his place at the moment but if his form was to dip or he got injured or suspended then I would be confident that Stephen Ward would come in and do a good job

ElmstClaret
24-10-2014, 12:17 AM
1 thing for sure is ward has a better delivery which we need from every angle possible right now. He also gives us extra height in defending and attacking set pieces. The advantages are on wards side to get in the team barring him not being in our promotion winning side. Ben Mee is a top draw defender but worst that could happen if ward plays and doesn't perform is we lose which is happening anyway, but for me we get to see if ward is good enough to put mee on the bench.

ashtonlongsider
24-10-2014, 05:56 AM
I have to agree in giving Ward a shot at LB.
Mee, much as I like him is prone to leaving big gaps when he goes forward and teams are targeting and exploiting this. Mee although not the only one is also prone to giving the ball away too cheaply. Fingers crossed Mirallas isn't playing this Sunday.

garfunkal
24-10-2014, 07:19 AM
BOT
Nice to know you don't disagree with me on one thing regarding Mee , that he is constantly caught out of position , let's hope he proves me wrong on Sunday as I can't see Dyche dropping him.

Holtyclaret
24-10-2014, 08:00 AM
I like Ben Mee, but for me he is out of his depth. Ward in for me with Ben on the bench.

Would also get Keane in for Duff when we can.

Both give 100% but not up to it for me, really harsh but we need to be.

Come on this weekend lets have them toffees UTC

the_quoon
24-10-2014, 08:07 AM
Mee has done as well as anybody else in our team so far.

No problems whatsoever with keeping him in the team. It's important to keep the defensive unit as settled as possible.

Also odd to see the goal against Chelsea being classed as not from open play.

spunkybackpack21
24-10-2014, 08:46 AM
Have to love the incredulous reactions to a perfectly reasonable tactical suggestion. Encapsulates Clarets Mad in general, really.

For what it;s worth, I think Mee has done ok, but Ward looked v good against Leicester (albeit in CM) so it's something worth looking at if, defensively, things don't pick up.

braindead
24-10-2014, 08:53 AM
Have to agree with the OP.

I think it is time to shuffle our pack somewhat, Ward is an international natural left back and Ben Mee, although he is a decent defender, lacks the ability going forward so I would rest him and let Ward play.

Also if Michael Keane is fit I would give him a game at centre half.

It is all very well 'keeping faith' with the players from last season, but we plainly need to change something.

claretspice
24-10-2014, 09:00 AM
"It's important to keep the defensive unit as settled as possible."

I think there's some truth in that. You can make valid cases for dropping any of Duff, Heaton and Mee I think. But to drop all 3 in one go would be ludicrous. You can probably make one change at a time so you've got to decide what the priority is.


"Also odd to see the goal against Chelsea being classed as not from open play."

Its a wierd one. Its not directly from a set-piece, admittedly. But when the first ball is cleared, it goes straight back wide and all the players stay lined up as for the set play. Shackell and Duff get right in the way of Terry and co getting out to Arfield to cross the ball. Taylor's as high up the pitch because he's just taken the set play. So its a bit of a grey area, and you can classify it how you like, but its a goal that has its origin in the set piece.

JohnMcGreal
24-10-2014, 09:03 AM
Outstanding at Leicester too

If that was an outstanding performance, you must have very low standards, CT. He was Sunday League on their second goal.

Overall, he's doing ok, like anyone else, but he seems to be being targeted by the opposition very frequently, which would suggest that several scouts have identified him as a particular weakness to exploit.

I'd have no qualms if Ward came in for him on Sunday. He's doing ok, but we aren't winning, so changing the system/personnel wouldn't be the craziest thing in the world.

thedonz
24-10-2014, 09:27 AM
Spice - I think its good for posters to elaborate on an argument at times but pray tell me where dropping 3 players at once comes into this one. You seem to have plucked that one out of thin air for some reason. Do you have an agenda by any chance?

the_quoon
24-10-2014, 09:35 AM
spice was just saying that you could make cases for at least 3 players to be dropped but you wouldn't do that as its too disruptive.
changing one player is less of a risk.

fatboy47
24-10-2014, 10:20 AM
""Ward looks the part but will have to wait his turn""


So Dyche now uses the "Buggins' Turn" principle for selecting his teams ?

Not common in the Prem isn't that.

BlackCountry
24-10-2014, 10:33 AM
Too many crosses coming over for me that our CB's failed to deal with so we either have a change or provide support.

I thought Ben Mee had a poor game against the Baggies but to be fair so did others.

milwaukeeclaret
24-10-2014, 10:35 AM
People are underestimating the importance of having a full back who is comfortable on the ball - Ben Mee isn't. West Ham figured that out in the second half and constantly put him under pressure covering angles. It resulted in him hooking a hopeful long ball down the line most of the time, and us losing possession.

I rate him and admire his attitude and defensive attributes, but more and more teams will start to figure out that he isn't good enough on the ball.

We may realise that Ward is no better in his position, but I wouldn't say Mee being dropped is totally unreasonable at this moment.

Claret_Russ
24-10-2014, 12:03 PM
People are underestimating the importance of having a full back who is comfortable on the ball

This is exactly the point. Mee is essentially a centre half playing at full back. The modern full back is dynamic, comfortable in possession, contributes equally to attack and defense. Mee is none of that. He is a brave and committed defender but not such a good one that we can afford to ignore the obvious deficiencies in other aspects of his game. We got away with in in the Championship, but it's being fairly ruthlessly exposed in the Premier League.

Would Ward be a huge improvement? We won't know until he gets a chance, but on paper at least he will bring more balance to the team and give opponents a bit more to think about in terms of where we can attack them. It's not about punishing a player for poor performance - it's about getting the maximum out of the squad and my hope is that we don't stay loyal to players who did well last year at the expense of doing what is necessary to

Rileybobs
24-10-2014, 12:34 PM
I like Mee, he's a committed player and able defender. However he is undoubtedly our weakest link in possession. I'm afraid that now is the time to throw sentiment out of the window and make changes to a side that have failed to win 8 games. If we fail to win any of our next 8 we will be almost certainly be relegated.

Ward, along with Keane, Gilks and perhaps Chalobah would all potentially add something to the side and it's the time to give one or two of them a chance. None of our side have disgraced themselves this season but nor have they shown that they have what it takes to win games at this level.

And whilst average player ratings should be taken with a pinch of salt, it is worth noting that Mee ranks 10th this season.

bodge
24-10-2014, 12:47 PM
Have to agree with Russ and Milwaukee.

I would also like to see Ward in the team as the left hand side needs to pose a threat like Trippier clearly does on the right.

Most opponents will target stopping Trippier's runs, Amalfitano failed in the scond half for West Ham but most teams have done a decent job on him knowing that we can't re focus our efforts down the left.

With full back being one of the few areas of the pitch where players get space it makes sense to have players who are comfortable on the ball going forward who can give teams something else to think about.

army88
24-10-2014, 12:52 PM
Posted before to the end that a lot of Mee s failings are down to no support in front of him in most of the games we've seen so far.

His real problem is pace tbh and that's why teams are targeting him, although both full backs allow too much ball delivered into our box unchallenged.

claretspice
24-10-2014, 01:04 PM
There are teams in premier league history who have played centre backs at full backs and got away with it, and at Championship level Mee is these days somewhat more comfortable than an out of position centre back.

Thing is that at this level, to get away with left backs who are very limited in attack, you've got to have a greater threat further forward. Unfortunately, the quality of our creative options is such that we probably need give teams more to think about from our left back channel. That's the argument for Ward - I've not seen enough of him to be sure he'd offer more coming forwards but I'd be interested to find out.

The issue, for me, is that adding more mobility and power at centre back in Keane is arguably a bigger priority.

EDIT - not sure the criticism of our full backs for not stopping crosses is valid. We've very deliberately set up very narrow this season, encouraging crosses to an extent but also putting an onus on the wide midfielders to track the opponents' outsid