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ets
28-11-2014, 09:16 PM
Considered and sensible thoughts only please.

It personally think, it will have an affect on our town in the future. Our population will most certainly shrink, but at least benefits bills will too. We need people that contribute to society not just think it's ok to claim for whatever they can because we have let them all too easily. If they contribute positively, then I am in favour.

Bin_Ont_Turf
28-11-2014, 09:37 PM
A proper egg shell treader is this subject on here.

Not enough housing, not enough jobs.

I'm hoping for some Mongolian immigrants to the town who will hopefully open a restaurant.

I used to like eating here in Eindhoven... - view external link (http://www.dzjengiskhan.nl/en/)

taio
28-11-2014, 09:53 PM
The town's population is already shrinking.

I doubt Cameron would be able to implement his latest proposals on EU migrants anyway.

I heard someone say on the news this week, that immigration is the biggest issue this country faces, which was laughable.

BelialofBacup
28-11-2014, 10:41 PM
It depends what exactly those changes will be. If they are large scale, and are policed correctly, then potentially it will affect Burnley and most of the country. Will it be for the better? Again, that depends on whether rules are initiated to make sure anybody coming in is actually going to contribute. Either way, unfortunately I don't believe that any of the serious parties have the determination and foresight to plan anything effectively

nil_desperandum
28-11-2014, 10:57 PM
" Our population will most certainly shrink, but at least benefits bills will too."

An arguable point since statistics already suggest that immigrants from the EU pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits and are therefore helping to pay our single greatest benefit which is the pension.

"Immigration to the UK since 2000 has been of substantial net fiscal benefit, with immigrants contributing more than they have received in benefits and transfers. This is true for immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe as well as the rest of the EU.
Over the period from 2001 to 2011, European immigrants from the EU-15 countries contributed 64% more in taxes than they received in benefits. Immigrants from the Central and East European ‘accession’ countries (the ‘A10’) contributed 12% more than they received."

These are the central findings of new analysis by Professor Christian Dustmann and Dr Tommaso Frattini of the fiscal consequences of European immigration to the UK, published Nov 5th 2

mdd2
28-11-2014, 11:19 PM
There won't be any changes to immigration and our population will expand at around 500,000 per annum from excess births over deaths and around 250000 folk arriving over those leaving.Our failure to control our borders and plan ahead appropriately for housing, health and education will cause more and more misery and lead to more immigration as we have to import health care workers. We always fail to plan ahead for the appropriate numbers of nurses midwives doctors teachers etc.. I have no idea how we are planning to provide the extra power generation for energy needs of these extra people let alone provision of water.
But we do need more young working people to fund the needs of the increasing numbers of elderly people.

barracuda
28-11-2014, 11:50 PM
Every time I read these threads it makes me understand that the only answer is emigration

pstotto
29-11-2014, 12:12 AM
Apparently by 2030, The majority of eligible voters in the UK will be voting for tribal courts hanging out gang rape sentences...

HatfieldClaret
29-11-2014, 07:41 AM
taio, you may be referring to the chap from YouGov who was on the news yesterday. He was saying theat the polls show that at the moment immigration is top of the concerns list. However the polls also show that for the next election the priorities for voters will be the economy, jobs and standard of living. Ironically, all 3 are linked.

As far as Freedom of Movement to work goes, I grew up abroad as my father worked overseas for 35 years. (always paid his NI before anyone asks). I therefore have no problem with it.

Freedom of Movement to work is, however, different to Freedom of Movement to claim benefits. We already have enough people who are claiming enough benefits, some never having worked and some who are just too useless to be employable. That's before we count those who are ill or disabled in someway and do need our help.

Pure sound financial sense, let in those who have a job to come to and stop those who don't. Immigrants are paid low wages as they can then claim other bene

ets
29-11-2014, 07:58 AM
HC wouldn't it be good if we did have a few that made a positive contribution to the team though? One can only hope. It would set a good example to the rest.

superdimitri
30-11-2014, 02:54 AM
I don't know if anyone else notices this, bit I seem to encounter a lot more British citizens claiming benefits both legally and illegally than foreign immigrants.

They work hard and long hours, are grateful for lesser jobs and often have a strict culture/religion preventing most young girls from getting pregnant at 13.

I think it's the people who fake disabilities or exaggerate them that cost more money. Free cars, payments etc. Teenage pregnancy also is a factor.

I don't understand why people are scared. Most of these families are raising children who are British and are doing just as well if not better in schooling. I bet most people in this thread at some stage derived from somewhere else, that's just always been the case in most countries. It's a gradual process and nothing to be afraid of.
And no, my may have dimitri in it but I'm not an immigrant... Well actually I am, one of my great grandfathers was born in Ireland.

The Bedlington Terrier
30-11-2014, 09:14 AM
We live in a globalized world where freedom of movement should be a given. It's borders and territory that causes the problem and the people who want their "territory" to remain theirs. Anyone emigrating into Burnley like a new centre forward who knows where the back of the net is more than welcome for me!

karatekid
30-11-2014, 09:40 AM
The population of the UK is just over 64 million . France which is much larger is 66 million.
Australia only 23 million.

At what point do we say we have too many people on this tiny island to sustain a decent quality of life. Each new arrival needs a job , a home , a school place for their kid(s) , a hospital bed if they become ill , a space on the road for their car etc.

What happens if their is another global economic crisis and a lot of jobs are lost. Can we afford the welfare bill of all the extra out of work people that have come here?

Again, what is the maximum wecould cope with? 70 million , 80 million ? At what point do we sink ?

bobinho
30-11-2014, 09:44 AM
"They work hard and long hours, are grateful for lesser jobs and often have a strict culture/religion preventing most young girls from getting pregnant at 13."

That's right, they just get ours pregnant at that age, and leave their own unmolested. Have a read of the "at the courts" section of our local rags to see how these communities with strict religious and cultural beliefs are behaving. Their community elders/leaders do nothing to police their own and just ignore what they are doing.

I digress.

To answer the OP, I think not. The damage is already done. We have two separate main communities in Burnley, with some eastern Europeans thrown in. These two communities at best tolerate the others e existence. We have a racial divide in the town and it will only get worse as one of those communities increases in size and the other decreases. You can over complicate matters all you want, but if we eventually manage to curb it, locally it won't come down to immigration, it will be down to

ets
30-11-2014, 05:29 PM
Fair comments Bobinho.

Burnley is probably a fair reflection of what is happening around many parts of our great country.

I personally fear for this countries future, if matters are left to carry on as they were, will only serve to undermine us all. We must make changes whether Europe likes it or not. Either that or EC should contribute more to our ever increasing social welfare bill that is close to breaking point.

blackburnturfite
30-11-2014, 06:37 PM
Idont pretend to be politically minded,and under no circumstances do I ask for any insults, but a lot of our youngsters seem to be getting nowhere learning trades they have no work experience,some don't know what its like to earn a steady wage, and I don't believe that they don't want work, perhaps a minority. But working part-time at Matalan,Asda,Next,etc, isn't what I would call earning a reasonable living wage too start a family, pay a Mortgage, which is what any young Adult Born and Bred here deserves before any immigrant. Rant Over ;D

nil_desperandum
30-11-2014, 06:39 PM
"Either that or EC should contribute more to our ever increasing social welfare bill that is close to breaking point."
And what is the main reason why the welfare bill is rising?
Too many people living too long and drawing the pension. Nothing to do with immigrants from the EU, the vast majority of whom are working and contributing towards these pensions.
(That's not to say that there shouldn't be a major review of the benefits system.)

addisclaret
30-11-2014, 06:40 PM
What happens if their is another global economic crisis and a lot of jobs are lost.

I would hope that if "there" is another global economic crisis we can grammatise our way out of it.

And that the people running things are a bit smarter than you.

karatekid
30-11-2014, 07:00 PM
It's called a typo. Obviously you didn't study computing. How about contributing to the thread instead of searching for typos. Arrgggghh. >:(

Edit: typo

ColdPieWarmBeer
01-12-2014, 12:16 AM
David Cameron's (probably adorable) son: "Daddy, daddy, why is that man sleeping under a bridge?"

David Cameron: "Because he doesn't have a house, son."

Son: "Why doesn't he have a house?"

DC: "Because he doesn't have a job that affords him a house, son."

Son: "Why doesn't he have a job?"

DC: "Because there are no job vacancies, son."

Son: "Why are there no job vacancies?"

DC: "Because there aren't enough businesses hiring, son."

Son: "Why aren't there enough businesses hiring?"

DC: "Because a lot of businesses struggled financially a few years ago, son, and some closed."

Son: "Why did they struggle?"

DC: "Because they didn't have many customers, son."

Son: "Why didn't they have many customers?"

DC: "Because a lot of other people didn't have jobs and so couldn't buy things from them, and some people's mortgages were too expensive because of the housing bubble so they couldn't buy things, and other people couldn't get credit to buy things because their lender

secessionman
01-12-2014, 03:12 AM
'Considered and sensible thoughts only please.'

This thread was not intended to be a party political broadcast.

HatfieldClaret
01-12-2014, 05:25 AM
CPWB

Ypu really have too much time on your hands...

You forgot to mention which government was sleepwalking when all of this happened, Northern Rock etc.

Can be found in the Fiction section at the bookshop, or the bargain bucket by the door...

fatboy47
01-12-2014, 08:07 AM
The tories won't change the status quo because, right now, having lots of people prepared to graft for peanuts helps keep British workers' wages down.

If we shift even further to the right and there's any kind of major depression/mass unemployment/serious racial conflict...then you can be sure it'll be the UKIP/tory alliance that'll be fanning the flames and shouting for mass repatriation.

BasilofCliviger
01-12-2014, 10:51 AM
Nil-desperandum
Those figs you quote only go up to 2011 and "they" say that it's been a vastly different story since then with a big, big reversal - only the next set of figs. will confirm this.
Another point - when those defending the immigrant/Europe thing quote that there are a million British o.a.p.'s living in Spain, fleecing their system, they omit that the vast majority of these have worked for 45 to 50 years, paying Tax & NI all the time and have saved-up to support themselves in retirement and have mostly helped the Spanish economy by investing in property over there too. What with the big EU kitty, reciprocal health agreements between countries, etc Spain do immensely well out of it, so I wish Chucka Ommana on Question Time would button it.
Also a big concern is that whilst the focus of attention is on Eastern Europeans then all the first, second and third generation non-European immigrants already here continue to fleece the heck out of us.

ColdPieWarmBeer
01-12-2014, 01:35 PM
You forgot to mention which government was sleepwalking when all of this happened, Northern Rock etc.

Yes, what the above, clearly allegorical figment of my imagination really needed to drum home it's point was finer nuance in the form of party political back-and-forth point scoring, so allow me to indulge you by seeing your "sleepwalking Labour" and raise you "instrumental in liberlising the financial markets and entirely complicit in accelerating the neo-lib rigged capitalist system that has shafted the public in pursuit of an agenda that the overwhelming majority of the electorate didn't ask for-Labour".

You familiar with divide and rule?

The Bedlington Terrier
01-12-2014, 02:46 PM
The success of Asian entrepreneurship in this country should be a benchmark not a negative. People are arriving from Eastern Europe because we afford them the opportunity of employment, education and health care. Why should we turn them away because if ever a town needed an injection of entrepreneurship and positivism it's Burnley and the whole of East Lancashire. It's time we stopped worrying and whittling and got off our arses and compete - locally and globally!

BasilofCliviger
01-12-2014, 02:53 PM
Thought Gordon Birtwistle had put us back on the map? Well, once we get the loco to run on the lines, that is. We'll be awash with students and Manc. entrepeneurs - why would we need more? We just need workers and people who won't dodge their taxes and claim for just about everything, whilst running their vehicles on Red Diesel, whilst the coppers turn a blind eye.

nil_desperandum
01-12-2014, 03:17 PM
"Nil-desperandum
Those figs you quote only go up to 2011 and "they" say that it's been a vastly different story since then with a big, big reversal - only the next set of figs. will confirm this."

The report only came out last month so you can't get much more up to date.
Who are "they"? ... and why will there have been a such a big change since then? Immigrants continue to find work, and the number of people drawing the pension continues to rise.

"Also a big concern is that whilst the focus of attention is on Eastern Europeans then all the first, second and third generation non-European immigrants already here continue to fleece the heck out of us."
The focus is on Eastern Europeans as it is the freedom of movement in the EU that certain factions blame for perceived problems, and Cameron has chosen to make it an issue.
As for being fleeced by certain sections of the community. I wonder if there is any statistical evidence to support this.? If we are looking at being fleeced I would p

BasilofCliviger
01-12-2014, 03:46 PM
Yes, them as well. There's loads of evidence - just that people won't admit it until it's too late, like those other issues which have come to light. The more you look at it there are so many rotters about, it worries me!

OneNilWade
01-12-2014, 03:52 PM
Why would anybody object to getting control of the UK borders...

nil_desperandum
01-12-2014, 05:08 PM
"Why would anybody object to getting control of the UK borders"
Admittedly I haven't scrutinised in detail every post on this thread, but I don't think anyone on here has objected to this.

bf2k
01-12-2014, 07:40 PM
ColdPieWarmBeer - My son would have got a clip round the ear at the third "why" >:)

OneNilWade
01-12-2014, 11:11 PM
Nil you are correct nobody has directly said they object but reading between your lines you are pro open door...

which is fine but I'm for control...

Guich
02-12-2014, 09:17 AM
ColdPieBeerWarmer,

We're somewhat off topic, and the bank blaming path is well worn. There was some fault there, on the part of the risk takers for sure. But to add some balance I do get a little fed up when I hear people (and not saying this is you) who have owned houses for some time and have pensions (particularly public sector)blaming the banks for all the world's problems when the banks' performance over decades have made these people considerably wealthier in terms of property rises, tax revenues and institutional pension investment.

The credit crisis was bad, but the people who suffered the most were businesses under £25m turnover and the retail bank staff who are either redundant or suffer dogs abuse daily.

Blaming politicians sits easier with me.

nil_desperandum
02-12-2014, 09:25 AM
"Nil you are correct nobody has directly said they object but reading between your lines you are pro open door...

which is fine but I'm for control..."

Having freedom of movement for EU members doesn't mean no border controls. You still control who you let in and who you don't. We still need to know who's here and who isn't and ensure that only those entitled to be here are allowed to cross the border, (in both directions).
I am perfectly willing to admit that neither of the recent governments have been very good at this, and personally I would strengthen border controls at present.

LoveCurryPies
02-12-2014, 09:41 AM
These sort of discussions are always started by people who dislike the Asian community but like to go for a curry on friday nights.

mansfieldCLARETS
02-12-2014, 10:59 AM
immigration is to sort out

1/ must have health insurance for 5 years
2/ no housing benefits for 5 years
3/ no working tax credits for 5 years
4/ must have a job within 6 months of arriving in the uk, or they must leave
5/ must take a uk driving test after 6 months
6/ must pay some sort of vignette (road tax) for there car
7/ child benefit can not be sent back to there home country, and the children must be in this country

have i missed anything :D

nil_desperandum
02-12-2014, 11:40 AM
Why must they be forced to drive and have a car?
Already too many on the roads.
People born in the UK don't have to learn to drive. It's a lifestyle choice.

lotty1
02-12-2014, 11:54 AM
"Too many people living too long and drawing the pension ."

OK then nil_desperandum - at what stage should we oldies actually die ? :D

nil_desperandum
02-12-2014, 12:54 PM
I know that your comment is tongue in cheek lotty but it is of course a very serious difficulty for any future government.
When the benefits system was set up, it would never have been envisaged that some people might be drawing their pension for 40 years and more, and that's going to become even more common as life expectancy continues to rise.
As to the answer, like yourself, (I suspect), I really don't have one, but like yourself I shalln't be volunteering to leave the planet early just to reduce the benefits bill!.

lotty1
02-12-2014, 01:10 PM
It is a problem I agree but I don't exactly agree with the 40 years or more comment . Pensions have been put back twice I think and my other half has to wait until she's 63 to draw her pension and others longer . I would think 20 years max for most people .

It does seem however that some seem to think that pensioners are too well treated which I find a bit odd . I feel they're more deserving than those who have never worked and have no intention of ever working .

As for immigrants ; don't have a problem if they're here to work but do have a problem with the fact that they prefer to come here ( UK ) seemingly over and above anywhere else and you have to question the reason for that .

Also if they continue to flock to the UK we'll be building houses in the ocean . NHS , schools etc ; how much can we afford and surely preference should be given to those born in this country to a larger degree than there is at the moment .

I suppose figures can be manipulated to mean anything you want

nil_desperandum
02-12-2014, 01:54 PM
Just to clarify Lotty: I said 'some' people draw the pension for 40 years or more, not that it was the norm.
There are currently over 13,000 centenarians drawing the pension in the UK, and apparently this is predicted to rise to 160,000 within 30 years.
With the pension age currently set at 66, I can foresee a large number of people on the pension for 30 years +, and a significant number for 40 years.
As you say, however, the norm will be more like 20.
25 maybe? :)

ColdPieWarmBeer
03-12-2014, 02:38 PM
We're somewhat off topic, and the bank blaming path is well worn.

We're not and it's not, because xenophobia in 2014 manifests itself in the form of well rehearsed but hopelessly misguided arguments about stretched public services and infrastructure. Stretched public services, housing shortages etc is a real problem, nobody is denying that, but our societal woes are borne of the intrinsic social irresponsibility and individualism that is rooted in corporatocracy, the exact corporatocratic ideology pushed by all UK governments, as representatives of the private sector first and the electorate second, since the Thatcher era, and accelerated at an alarming pace in the last five years by the Tories; not 'kin immigrants. Sure, immigrants are visible and debate over monetary and fiscal policy is nauseatingly dull but, fundamentally, these are economic issues and the economic reality does seem to have a bias towards the money rather than the boogeyman.