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Steve_Harpers_Perm
08-03-2015, 11:41 AM
Surely time to start him with Ings on Saturday. As well as Barnes has done if we have any chance of staying up we need the striking partnership that bagged us 50 odd goals last season to start playing together for the rest of the season.

Drop Kightly and move Barnes to the left or even start the returning Taylor there.

Or will Dyche go with the same 11?

kaptin1
08-03-2015, 12:11 PM
At home where we need to be on the front foot I would like to see 4-4-1-1

Heaton
Trippier - Keane - Shackell - Ward
Boyd - Arfield - Jones - Taylor
Ings
Vokes

Away from home where we need to absorb pressure and play on the counter I would like to see 3-4-1-2 / 5-3-2. This would see more long ball, with Vokes / Barnes trying to win knock downs for Ings.

Heaton
Keane - Shackell - Mee
Trippier - Arfield - Jones - Ward
Ings
Vokes - Barnes

Or

Heaton
Trippier - Keane - Shackell - Mee - Ward
Arfield - Jones - Taylor
Vokes - Ings

treadmillclaret
08-03-2015, 01:12 PM
I'd also like to see us matching sides who play 5 in midfield - but Pelegrini tends to play 4-4-2 like SD

Can't see Dyche dropping Barnes - he doesn't deserve it...and its only a few weeks ago when Barnes terrorised Mangala and Demicheles and scored a cracking goal...

I would personally against City drop Kightly - move Arfield back out wide ; play Danny in midfield and Vokes and Barnes up front...partly because Sam was not only fantastic up front last year but also our best defender from set pieces.

Don't think SD will do this though - and he knows a lot more than me !

3putt
08-03-2015, 02:14 PM
I think we need to shake things up a bit for the final run in. Assuming he's fully fit, we need to bring Vokes into the starting eleven.

I quite like the idea of Vokes, Barnes and Ings all playing, I think Danny could be really good in an attacking midfield role.

Would like to see it, but not sure SD would play that way.

IanMcL
08-03-2015, 03:17 PM
I'd like to see the three subs on from the start!

ClaretTony2014
08-03-2015, 03:35 PM
Doubt Taylor will be ready for Sunday - only played 45 minutes.

As for Vokes - have to say that it was only at Chelsea when he began to look anything like. Would be a big, big decision to leave Barnes out but there again it was a big, big decision to bring him in last November and that worked.

joe14
08-03-2015, 03:38 PM
Usual team, usual subs/use of subs.

Akinbadbye_20
08-03-2015, 03:43 PM
I was against dropping Barnes for Vokes until recently.

Vokes is now looking back to the player he was last season and looking at Barnes record this season, 5 in 26 games according to Wikipedia, it really isnt great and if we are comparing both players all round game, then Vokes has to win that battle for me.

If we can get all 3 in the side it would be ideal but it seems unlikely

BriscoCountyJr
08-03-2015, 03:50 PM
For the twenty minutes or so that Vokes was on against Liverpool, the Vings combination looked much more potent than Ings/Barnes.

However, that isn't a knock on Barnes performance, and he had had a decent game to that point. The only knock against him is that he doesn't have that connection with his strike partner.

northeastclaret
08-03-2015, 03:58 PM
Vokes to replace Kightly for me, Kightly has been woeful in the last 2 matches. He has gone back to the player who loses far more possession for the team than any other player.

Putting Barnes on the wing would also take him away from the challenges where has not got anything from the last 2 refs.

With Vokes we would also be stronger at corners.

BriscoCountyJr
08-03-2015, 04:03 PM
Barnes on the wing? Against David Silva?

Yes. That will end well.

ClaretTony2014
08-03-2015, 04:10 PM
"Vokes is now looking back to the player he was last season"

Given he hasn't played a full game publicly other than at Spurs where he looked miles away, I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion.


He's looked much better in his last two sub appearances, no doubt about that, but back to how he is last season will have to wait until he's played some games this season.

Akinbadbye_20
08-03-2015, 04:12 PM
Probably exaggerated a bit but he's at least looking capable again, he was initially miles off the pace when he returned

bfcjon
08-03-2015, 05:22 PM
Vokes, is I think good for next season..
Totally unfair to judge him this season..

Next season,
When Danny Boy Goes,..and a big IF, We do go in for anyone. With any commitment to replace him,
Would it be any better than January...

In the TETLEY Men we trust... :blue:

summitclaret
08-03-2015, 07:09 PM
Vokes is the answer to defending corners. Barnes played wide for BHA many times. So Kightly out on Saturday.

Ward needs to come into central midfield (for Arfield) against City and Danny has to drop back to leave one striker or we will get murdered.

Please don't say you can't play 2 left footers together as it is no different to 2 right footers.

bfcjon
08-03-2015, 07:20 PM
Hey Summit, Don"t tell the Vatican ?...;D

ClaretTony2014
08-03-2015, 07:34 PM
"Please don't say you can't play 2 left footers together as it is no different to 2 right footers."


It is very different. I know it shouldn't be logically but it is.

mkmel
08-03-2015, 08:05 PM
Very much doubt that Sean Dyche would play this system and not sure if these players could fit into it either but on paper this as a starting 11 looks well balanced and would include both Barnes and Vokes

Heaton
Keane Shackell Mee
Trippier Boyd Barnes Jones Ward
Ings Vokes

williamsorhowey
08-03-2015, 10:57 PM
The Ashley Barnes fan club will shoot me down but it's time for a change. Vings or Varnes for me but change is needed no matter how much CT worships Ashley Barnes.

army88
09-03-2015, 06:24 AM
I'd try Barnes centre mid I think , competitive can win headers , isn't afraid of a challenge.

We will def set up 442 whatever though.

Vings up front for me

claretspice
09-03-2015, 07:26 AM
Really don't understand this notion of Ashley Barnes playing as an orthodox central midfielder. As far as I'm aware he's never played there in his life and its a completely alien position to the one he's grown up playing, even if he can fill in on the wing.

I can sort-of see the argument for dropping Barnes for Vokes, or playing both of them and going 4-3-3. However, Kompany has struggled all season with centre forwards who move, dropping off into the space and wide into the channels. Vokes isn't immobile by any means, but Barnes is a far more mobile target and so particularly given what a good game he had at the Etihad, it doesn't seem the right game to drop him or to move him out of the centre.

I would be tempted to bring in Ward for Kightly though. Said the same thing before the Liverpool game, I suspect Ward can replicate the auxillary central midfield position that Arfield made his own far better than Kightly. Kightly stretches the game which is great when the onus is on us to

sheffieldturfite
09-03-2015, 07:41 AM
We may need to nab something against City, Soton, Arsenal or Spurs, but we definately will need at least 3 wins from our last 6.

Taking that logic, and applying it to the above argument that Vokes won't be "back" until he has a few full games, it seems irrefutable that Vokes has to start against City so he has the best chance of being on full power for the last 6 games. He only has to do 60 minutes of course, then Barnes can come on.

It is thus now or never. If we play Ash, previous results suggest we will not get the wins we need.

claretspice
09-03-2015, 07:51 AM
"If we play Ash, previous results suggest we will not get the wins we need."

If we play Ings, Shackell, Jones, Trippier, etc. previous results suggest we won't get the results we need. Why make Barnes the scapegoat? He's done well, he's scored 5 goals in 20 games by my reckoning since he got into the starting XI which is a very respectable return, and he's been particularly good in games against teams playing a flat 4-4-2, as City do.

I'm a big Sam Vokes fan, I think he's probably a better player all things being equal than Barnes, but there's not that much in it and it seems to me Vokes is being built up into something more than he is at present. He's no world beater, he's a player with good pedigree at Championship level but no experience to speak of in the Premier League and I think people need to be wary of assuming the only thing holding him back from terrorising defences at this level is match sharpness. It isn't, its confidence and experience at this level and unfortunately fo

Boliclaret
09-03-2015, 08:01 AM
At the beginning of the season we couldn't get Vokesy back quick enough, he was to be our saviour unless we really splashed the cash and bought a new striker.

The dilema over Vokes/Barnes and the season that Barnes has had is testimony to how well Dyche has done on such meagre resources.

claretspice
09-03-2015, 08:06 AM
Its also testament to the fact that Barnes has turned out to be a better footballer than most of us gave him credit for.

That reflects on Dyche for getting the best out of him, but it also reflects well on the lad himself.

Just 2 games ago he was by all accounts outstanding at Chelsea.

Claretforever
09-03-2015, 08:07 AM
I'd actually start withVokes on Saturday. I've been well impressed with Barnes since October, prior he looked weak, was not winning headers and just collapsed when touched. His touch, close control and will to win has improved ten fold. We need to change something to stop opposing managers being ready for our tactics though.

Kightly playing at United caused them problems because I don't think they were expecting us to go at them.

Equally, if we are going to pump balls from 40 yards out into the box, then Vokes is the man who can win the headers to get a shot on goal, or flick on. I'd then perhaps bring on the fresh legs of Barnes to terrorise them after 60 minutes...if we're still in it. :/

jt_claret
09-03-2015, 09:30 AM
Completely agree with starting Vokes, despite how well Barnes has been.

We seem to have lost the threat going forward that we had when Barnes came in. As mentioned, we know Vokes and Ings work very well together, add to that Trippier also knows how it works, and the long balls we often play may have that little bit of extra threat.

I also think Barnes would be an absolute must to come on as sub for at least the last 15mins (unless we are comfortably winning) for the nuisance side of his game against defenders.

claretspice
09-03-2015, 09:43 AM
"We seem to have lost the threat going forward that we had when Barnes came in."

Swansea was the first time this year we'd failed to score twice in a home league match - we'd scored twice in our previous 3 home games. Before that run, we hadn't scored twice at home all season.

Particularly at home, our problem has not been scoring goals, it has been keeping them out.

All for opinions but I think there's a bit of a danger in perceptions clouding facts in this discussion.

wills_claret
09-03-2015, 10:21 AM
I agree with most of what Spice says, but I'd still go for Vokes on Saturday. Not because I think he's a far superior player than Barnes, but because he's more likely to bring Ings into the game. If we're going to stay up, Ings is going to have to play a big part. Vokes is a little more intelligent with the ball, and obviously has a great understanding with Ings. It's a tad harsh on Barnes who'd been really good, but I think we need to change something. We've looked less threatening in our last two games and haven't scored. I don't think for a moment Vokes is a solve all, but it's worth giving him a shot with Barnes coming on after an hour perhaps.

sheffieldturfite
09-03-2015, 11:10 AM
"If we play Ings, Shackell, Jones, Trippier, etc. previous results suggest we won't get the results we need. Why make Barnes the scapegoat?"

I don't think I said Barnes would be the scapegoat, the term is too harsh, but it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that the other players mentioned present the same dilemma. Barnes is weaker in the air, doesn't hold the ball up as well, doesn't link with Ings as well, doesn't defend corners as well and doesn't get into clear cut positions as well as Vokes. What he does do is press the opposition well when they have possession, and shoots on sight which means he scores a couple from half chances. Will that be enough? I suspect not. Thus the recommendation for Vokes.

All things being equal, Villa have a reasonable run in and will get to 33-34 points, so we have to look at sides like Hull who we also have to travel to. We have to do something different. Sticking to the same, especially with Marney missing, is like sticking our heads in the sand and

claretspice
09-03-2015, 11:34 AM
"Barnes is weaker in the air, doesn't hold the ball up as well, doesn't link with Ings as well, doesn't defend corners as well and doesn't get into clear cut positions as well as Vokes."

I suppose the problem is that all of these are pretty much assumptions, as we've not seen whether Vokes can do any of the above so well in the Premier League. I'd concede the point Vokes will always be better in the air, but against that I'm quite sure Barnes would beat him in a 20 yard dash and I can't see how you can possibly conclude that Vokes' hold up play, or link-up with Ings, would be better in this division. We're comparing Vokes' performances when at the peak of his powers as part of a successful team in the Championship with Barnes' in a struggling team in the Premier League.

It isn't a fair comparision but it is worth noting that I haven't yet seen Vokes come off the bench and improve us. But I'd say that the success story of the season to date has been the Barnes/Ings axis. Only 10 home

Steve_Harpers_Perm
09-03-2015, 12:00 PM
'Couple of disappointing results'. We've won 1 in 12. Something needs to change. The 11 who keep starting are devoid of confidence.

Facts are Vokes and Ings are the best striking partnership at the club.

SmithybridgeClaret1
09-03-2015, 12:41 PM
It a hard ask, but IMO I think its Sh88 or bust on Saturday. If we lose, were down... if we win, we keep ourselves in with a chance.

claretspice
09-03-2015, 12:49 PM
"Facts are Vokes and Ings are the best striking partnership at the club."

Facts are that's not a fact at all, its an opinion which is somewhere between a guess and a working assumption, and which allows nothing for the confidence and sharpness of the players concerned, or the fact we've stepped up a massive level in the 12 months since Vokes was last starting games and playing well.

I'm not saying its a completely ridiculous notion, but I do think its an odd one immediately before we play the side Barnes shone against the most, and it needs to be based on a hell of a lot more than "oh well we need to make a change, that's an obvious one".

We might have only won 1 in 12 but we've scored 2 goals or more in 5 of those games and only won one of those so I'd suggest if we're looking for fall-guys we'd be best looking elsewhere. I know Vokes is also being presented as the solution to our set-piece woes but a very basic bit of research on last season confirms that that's a false premise a

Jamb0MackemClaret
09-03-2015, 01:02 PM
Vokes is a better player than Barnes. Yes he's still feeling his way back but if we go down without trying the Vokes-Ings combination for a few games then that's daft imo. Vokes looked excellent at Chelsea and we have to try something different. We can't keep playing the same team with the same tactics when we're not winning games.

Barnes would be unlucky to be dropped, but that's football. He's only scored one goal this year after all. He's not undroppable.

silkyskills1
09-03-2015, 02:20 PM
I must say that I think Vokes and Ings are the best striking partnership we have at the club because for the life of me I can't think of any other combination that's better.Whether Barnes starts or not on Saturday will be based on the opinion of the manager but it's an indisputable fact that Vokes and Ings' partnership last season was the envy of the Championship.

sheffieldturfite
09-03-2015, 03:05 PM
"I know Vokes is also being presented as the solution to our set-piece woes but a very basic bit of research on last season confirms that that's a false premise as well."

I don't know the answer to that one but it feels like we are conceding from a lot more corners this season, and aren't scoring from many corners either.

Holding out any hope for the City game is a bit of a red herring I suspect. They are worse without Toure than we are without Marney, incredibly, and Toure will play this time. They had Mangala and Demichelis at the back, I expect Kompany to return this time. We played them 2 days after Boxing Day where they had an away game - they had nothing left in the second half. Sadly, we'll get stuffed this time, and should be trying to win but planning for the remaining games while doing so.

Bobcloth2
09-03-2015, 05:53 PM
"I know Vokes is also being presented as the solution to our set-piece woes but a very basic bit of research on last season confirms that that's a false premise as well."


The solution? Or are people just pointing out he's better in the air than Barnes?

corkcityclaret59
09-03-2015, 09:03 PM
Whatever about Vokes,bring Matty Taylor back on crutches