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ClaretTony2014
11-03-2015, 03:03 PM
Match commander David Duckenfield has just admitted that he told a lie to Graham Kelly (FA) when he said that fans had got themselves in through a gate.

He has apologised unreservedly to the families of those who died for lying about the fans and said he will regret it to his dying day. He says he has no idea what motivated him to lie.

He said: "It was a terrible lie in that everybody knew the truth. The fans and police knew the truth that we opened the gates."

ClaretTony2014
11-03-2015, 03:37 PM
Ended today as follows:

Duckenfield: "I did my best and if it wasn't good enough I apologise unreservedly."

C Lambert QQ: "Was it good enough?"

Duckenfield: "No Ma'am."

CleggHall
11-03-2015, 05:52 PM
Disgraceful he finally tells the truth 25 years after the event. What pain and hardship this crooked policeman has inflicted on so many families. Why did no other police officers tell the truth first? The gate was opened by the cops not broken down by fans, surely examination of the non-broken gate would reveal this. A shameful disgrace which besmirched the of fans to save the skins of South Yorkshire police.

evensteadiereddie
11-03-2015, 06:41 PM
25 years for this crooked ******* to tell the truth and he's only done it now because he's no choice.
Absolute **** of the earth, I hope he pays for it painfully and at length.
Didn't know why he lied XD - cowardice and self preservation, mate, that's why.

morninbob
11-03-2015, 06:43 PM
I agree that the apology is 26 years too late but at least he has had the decency to say he was inexperienced, the wrong man for the job and he froze. Other police have just hidden behind the "I can't remember " line of defence or still blamed the fans.

Bobcloth2
11-03-2015, 07:00 PM
I'd start by taking his lucrative pension from him.

mikeS
11-03-2015, 07:05 PM
There will be more to come from him, hopefully about why the police changed witness statements.

BabylonClaret
11-03-2015, 07:46 PM
I agree that the apology is 26 years too late but at least he has had the decency to say he was inexperienced, the wrong man for the job and he froze. Other police have just hidden behind the "I can't remember " line of defence or still blamed the fans.

He didn't really have much choice did he? The whole lot came crashing down around their ears last year.

Should be prosecuted for perjury. C * * T

Here's hoping the rest of them follow on.

yorksclaret
11-03-2015, 08:41 PM
I agree that the apology is 26 years too late but at least he has had the decency to say he was inexperienced, the wrong man for the job and he froze. Other police have just hidden behind the "I can't remember " line of defence or still blamed the fans.



Decency? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

ClaretTony2014
11-03-2015, 08:50 PM
Absolutely no decency whatsoever

Steve_Harpers_Perm
11-03-2015, 09:06 PM
Wow he's 'apologised' for tarnishing thes of the 96 victims for the past 26 years.

People like Duckenfield have no decency.

arise_sir_charge
11-03-2015, 09:36 PM
I thought that the fact the police opened the gate had been established years ago, I didn't think that was in doubt.

Whilst I've no sympathy for him and the subsequent cover up, I think that he was in a very difficult position on the day as regards whether to open te gate or not. People may have died outside the ground had the gate stayed closed, who knows? He made the wrong call, he's human, others could have done the same. It had unbelievably tragic consequences.

The subsequent lies are the issue for me. Had the truth been told at the time, I would think a lot of people would have sympathy with the police on the day.

ClaretTony2014
11-03-2015, 09:49 PM
The fact that he admitted not even knowing about the crushing problems in 1981 and 1988 before taking charge of this match was unforgivable. But to sit on lies for almost 26 years is as disgraceful as it gets.

claret1968
12-03-2015, 08:40 AM
I have always wondered what that chap thought of the police after the disaster,you know,the chap on the clip applauding the police for opening the gate to allow thousands more in to an already packed terracing?

The FA should be in the dock as well for over issuing tickets.

Darthlaw
12-03-2015, 08:55 AM
How old is he now? Must be in his 70's.

He probably hoped he'd kick the bucket before the day came where he would have to admit his lie.

ChorltonCharlie
12-03-2015, 03:11 PM
Thereís a lot not to like about this fella, but for all the wrong heís done this was far too big for him to be on his own. The cover up must be far far bigger. Justice for the 96 will not depend on this guy being made a scapegoat. It makes me wonder for how many of those 26 years did he lie or more likely that for many of them he was told to keep quiet and stick to the original fibs? Not that would make it right, but I canít help thinking it went much higher in the end.

titsoutforthelads2
12-03-2015, 04:22 PM
The odious Duckenfield should have been charged with manslaughter 25 years ago.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue
12-03-2015, 05:21 PM
It's a disgrace that the truth didn't come out all those years ago and I feel so sorry for the innocent people that died, together with their families, it should never have happened. The police were undoubtedly at fault but some of the fans must also take their share of the blame. If they hadn't turned up without tickets, pushing on the gates they wouldn't have been opened and the fans who got there on time, with tickets, at the front of the stand would not have died. I don't subscribe to the theory that just one party is to blame.

Espia
12-03-2015, 05:33 PM
Have to agree with "Paint it" above. He was under immense pressure to make a call on the best course of action, given the chaotic scenes at the gate. But he didn't set out to see loads of people die. He opened the gates to do the opposite and alleviate a worsening situation and prevent a crush outside the ground. It was the wrong decision and I don't know why he just didn't tell the truth in the beginning. But who's to say that even if he hadn't opened the gates those fans battering and pushing at it to break it down wouldn't have succeeded in their quest anyway - sadly the end result would have been the same.

Shame on Duckenfield for lying . But eternal shame on those who didn't take personal responsibility themselves and restrain from trying to force their way into the ground. We don't know theirs are who they are anymore but they do.

evensteadiereddie
12-03-2015, 06:43 PM
Fair point but tossers like Duckenfield were paid well to command and make decisions.
His rewards, pay and pension, will have been huge since that day - he seems to have had no hesitation in accepting his salary and pension payments over the years.
In other countries the git would have been locked up for manslaughter. Here, in the Land of the Cover-Up, the piece of **** ends up with nothing.

arise_sir_charge
12-03-2015, 07:10 PM
I wonder what the reaction would have been at the time had folk died at the gate? I suspect the police would still get the blame for not having opened.

We've all got a degree in hindsight.

A mistake had tragic consequences.

BabylonClaret
12-03-2015, 07:12 PM
Look. Sure he was inexperienced and made a bad call adn after all he's only human. That's terrible for him personally as that bad call meant he'll have a huge amount of guilt (assuming he's anywhere near a normal person in so far as those things go). In a way that's not his fault at all but the fault of his superiors for putting such a doofus in charge of an operation he was clearly unfit to manage.

That's not the point here. The point here is that he refused to accept any responsibility at the time, spread odious and deliberately misleading "facts" to the press" which effectively meant a whole bunch of people were pretty much vilified nationally for a number of years.

He steadfastly held to that untruth for 26 years, despite knowing all along that none of it was true. Gave evidence under oath that he knew was untrue (that's perjury by the way). Never once showedd any single shred of remorse or sympathy for any of the families involved. And now finally after 26 years says "i'm sorr

Quattro
12-03-2015, 07:19 PM
Two things for me:

1) what Espia has said is a very valid and fair point, which ultimately does equate to stating that the fans were responsible - there was a push outside, and no doubt, whether the gates should have or should not have been opened, the fans would have continued to push whether inside the ground or not - a key fact has to be that fans were not guided and dispersed into different pens once inside the ground - they all followed like sheep, so the ones who went in earlier were at more risk as more and more followed.

2) there is no doubt that he shouldn't have lied, but for these career orientated people, they are keen to impress the bosses, so will be in fear of looking weak or indecisive, hence making the decision he made. However, when it all started to go wrong, he simply didn't know how to deal with it...whether panic or shock. I'm not defending him because lying is wrong and has caused so much heartache to the families, but until someone is in that situation, it is

evensteadiereddie
12-03-2015, 07:25 PM
That doesn't explain his cover-up, quattro.
Why, if he considered himself inept, didn't he own up and resign or - more likely - retire "on medical grounds".
A lying, pointless ****bag - I hope he and the others rot.

BabylonClaret
12-03-2015, 07:26 PM
Sorry Quattro. I get the point about he was in a difficult situation and made a call. It went wrong and he couldn't foresee that.

But he deliberately spread lies and falsehoods to put the blame away from him and his mates. And then perpetuated this at every opportunity. So he had a number of opportunities to actually face up to this and tell the truth. And he totally passed every single one of them up. That's not a heat of the moment thing. That's a cold calm considered decision.

That's just wrong full stop. No argument. No mitigation. No excuse.

Shameful. Cowardly. Malicious.

And he's one of the people supposed to be protecting the rest of us? It's indefensible.

BabylonClaret
12-03-2015, 07:32 PM
And frankly returning to the point about people pushing around outside the ground is effectively going back to the "it's the fans fault" here. Sure there was pushing - when isn't there in such a situation. I've been to loads of gigs where this goes on all the time.

Maybe some of them should have ahd more responsibility - but they're just blokes from the street. They're not in a position of protecting others. They're possibly na bit drunk, not really well eductated or whatever - put it this way they don;t really know any better.

The police ought to. Didn't. And then pretended they did and blamed someone else. *******s.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue
12-03-2015, 08:27 PM
So BC, you think that the fans don't share any of the blame, however small, in this tragedy? You think that is acceptable for fans to travel across the country, with9ut a ticket and 0ush the gates in an attempt to get in? The police made mistakes, no doubt about it but if those fans hadn't travelled and hadn't attemp to gain entry illegally the tragedy wouldn't have happened, FACT.

As the saying goes, there's none so blind as those who cannot see. Both parties were to blame!

bf2k
12-03-2015, 08:31 PM
I'm not sure if criminal proceedings can come from this inquiry but they should. The commander for the day was in charge and the buck should stop with him. I also hope that the fans do take some of the blame for this tragedy. After all it was them that continued to pile in.

evensteadiereddie
12-03-2015, 08:41 PM
Whatever fans did or didn't do does not hide the fact that this coward was content to peddle and spread his lies while being paid handsomely for it until it was clear his game was up.
It really is no wonder the police and politicians are thought of with utter contempt these days.

Steve_Harpers_Perm
12-03-2015, 09:01 PM
As pointed out above he's shown no remorse for spreading lies or the massive cover up he and his pals in power have kept up for 26 years ago.

It's easy to say sorry 26 years later after he's coined in his big wage and police pension.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue
12-03-2015, 09:17 PM
Eddie, polls show that about 67% of the public trust the police whereas only about 19% trust politicians. The two can't be compared.

BabylonClaret
12-03-2015, 10:05 PM
How are both parties to blame for a cover up? Theres one side to blame for that.

And although there was a big crush outside that was Duckenfields job to deal with it. Im not saying that fans outside were angels or anything but the whole operation was badly run from start to finish. Predjudice drove many of the decision maling on the day which compounded the initial decision to open the gates.

SOME fans had mo tickets. But bad policing and control meant farvtoo many eerent inside in time for kick off and shame on them for clamouring to get in.

Stop trying to defend him and the police on the day. They made a shedload of bad decisions and then aggressively covered it up. Its the second oart of this that is the biggest crime and thats nothing at all to do with fan behaviour.

pstotto
12-03-2015, 10:11 PM
People on here can make comments, poor bloke. 95 people dead on your watch, what would you do?

Steve_Harpers_Perm
12-03-2015, 10:45 PM
Not lie about it being the fault of drunk fans, not force officers to alter their notes for a start.

'Poor bloke' really?

pstotto
12-03-2015, 10:48 PM
We're all human, that's what I meant. He didn't go to work that day, an evil man, I'm sure of it.

yesTHATironingboard
12-03-2015, 11:12 PM
a crowd is not an individual that can make rational judgements as an individual can. blaming the fans for this is like blaming the weather.

or would you expect one drunken, ticketless fan to realise that there could be danger and the rest of the drunken, ticketless fans to read his mind?

big, rowdy crowds need organisation and the organisation on that day was inadequate.

it's a shame that it's taken so long for someone to own up to that but i think it's just as bad that despite this admission there are still those who actually attribute some blame onto the fans.

claret1968
12-03-2015, 11:42 PM
The seeds of the disaster were planted by the FA.
Primed by ticketless fans.
Detonated by one man.

MrClaretandBlue
13-03-2015, 05:56 AM
Anyone still attributing blame to fans is an ignorant pig. Do some research for gods sake.

Duckenfield is a disgrace of a man who's negligence and subsequent self preserving lies have had unfathomable consequences on thousands of people.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue
13-03-2015, 07:39 AM
The decisions made were the wrong ones and the lies since are unforgivable but to say that all of the fans are totally innocent is being incredibly blinkered in this matter. The fans who turned up without tickets did contribute to the tragedy. If you can't see that then I suspect that you are just anti police and no amount of reasoned argument will change your view.

The analogy above with the bomb is a good and fair one.

wherewasi
13-03-2015, 08:04 AM
I love the way that being drunk or part of a crowd (post 36) absolves you of any blame. If only Duckinfield had turned up p1ssed for work and had a crowd of police officers helping him make the decisions at random - he'd be blameless... perhaps if I get some friends and we get smashed tonight and go and kill or rape someone, you'll be my barrister ironingboard? You will no doubt successfully argue that blaming us would be like "blaming the weather".

I'm not prepared to get involved in debate about this difficult, detailed discussion on a message board but suffice it to say I am no more prepared to accept unquestioningly the new way we are told we must all see this tragedy than I was prepared to unquestioningly accept the old way.

yesTHATironingboard
13-03-2015, 08:29 AM
I love the way that being drunk or part of a crowd (post 36) absolves you of any blame.

when i used the term 'drunken and ticketless' i was actually being sarcastic. i should have made this clearer.

there is no evidence whatsoever that alcohol was a contributory factor.

and there were plenty of examples at the time where too many fans to fit in the grounds showed up but none ended so tragically.

paintyork accuses anyone with a contrary view to himself of having an anti-police bias. i have not but i could just as easily present the baseless view that everyone who has a contrary view to myself has an anti-liverpool agenda. nonsense of course.

but what happened at hillsborough all those years ago happens today all the time in africa. nothing to do with alcohol but because they lack the expertise to handle something as dynamic as a large crowd.

evensteadiereddie
13-03-2015, 08:38 AM
A silly comment - I don't think anybody's telling you what to think, new or not.
The bloke made catastrophic decisions which caused, to some extent, the deaths of innocent people.
While not totally responsible for the deaths - we all accept that, surely - he has nonetheless spread lies about that afternoon, repeated them, refused to tell the truth on the many occasions he could have, claimed a relatively decent salary and pension package and, now, when he has nowhere to hide (and, no doubt several hundred thousand pounds wealthier) decides to speak.
If he can be tried for manslaughter and/or perjury, he must.
Personally, I hope he faces ridicule and shame every single day of the rest of his life. Not for the mistake he made but for his subsequent cowardice, cruelty and dishonesty.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue
13-03-2015, 08:45 AM
I am not anti-Liverpool fans. As you can see from my posts, the police must shoulder a large portion of the blame for what occurred. What I don't believe however, is the view that ALL of the Liverpool fans are totally innocent. The ticketless ones who were pushing at the gate have to shoulder their part of the blame.
What I do believe though, is that the ones that died are TOTALLY innocent having bought tickets and arrived at the ground early.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue
13-03-2015, 08:47 AM
Eddie, yes, I do accept that the lies told were unforgivable and should not have happened.

bf2k
13-03-2015, 09:08 AM
"Anyone still attributing blame to fans is an ignorant pig. Do some research for gods sake."

MrClaretandBlue - If you turned up to a major match ticketless and saw what was going on as a sane rational person would you not walk away? Why shouldn't you take some blame for what was happening outside the ground?

People must make a distinct line between what happened inside the ground and what happen outside. The poor fans inside (at the bottom) had no control over what was happening. Those towards the top/entrance had a little more control. Those outside had the ultimate control to walk away. The police should have pushed them back yes and ultimately they will take the blame for poor crowd control.

I can't understand why the FA CE isn't being cross examined. Or is he due to be called?

ClaretTony2014
13-03-2015, 07:29 PM
Amongst other things he's said today: "It's now dawned on me what it means to you and I'm dreadfully sorry".

At that point some family members walked out and one shouted that he didn't want his apology. Just dawned on him? This man is worse than I ever imagined.

oldcolner
13-03-2015, 11:15 PM
Have to agree CT. His life since Hillsboro has been one big lie followed by denial. The relatives at least got some satisfaction from seeing home squirm for 4 days. Hope their lawyers are sharpening their quills for retribution.

butterflyvenom
14-03-2015, 12:11 AM
A few issues here, these latter day inquests might well isolate individuals who can be held accountable by all and sundry. If in the era of less scrutiny a person tried to cover up his responsibilities by being deceitful, that is inexcusable.
There is not one of you that would have the conviction to state you would have done things differently on the day. None of those officers deliberatley set out to oversee carnage.On that day they were just going to work as yorkshiremen, doing what they did every other week.You can lay the blame at one man's door but to ignore the circumstances that had football erecting high perimeter fencing in the first place is a mistake.
Hooliganism, drunken and loutish behaviour , violence at virtually every game resulted in draconian measures to enclose football supporters.
It stank, but most right minded folk agreed it was a necessity. Ticketless fans and inebriated fans had to be dealt with. Is it justified to completely disregard the actions of grown m

yesTHATironingboard
14-03-2015, 12:24 AM
Is it justified to completely disregard the actions of grown men travelling and behaving irresponsibly and focus a human catastrophe on the actions of of one solitary policeman?

i agree with this but it's the aftermath that seems to stick in peoples' throats.

that copper has finally admitted he was out of his depth but twenty six years?!

it must go higher than him and i doubt this particular saga has finished yet.

the 'drunken, ticketless' myth boils my blood though. it is so entrenched in the whole affair that some people will always believe it.

it seems like a terrible analogy but large groups of people will behave exactly like cattle if not managed properly. drunken or not.

butterflyvenom
14-03-2015, 12:41 AM
It's a very difficult problem ironing board, So many aspects to this . I understand professional people had the decision making at their disposal but to ignore the behaviour of fans is irrational.In Liverpool there seems to be a blindspot in accepting that an element of their fanbase were possibly at fault in any respect. Not adequate to attribute blame on one or two key officials on that day.Literally thousands involved. Do you think you would be so easy with the guilty cries if you were related to that officer?
He may well have served decades with integrity and honesty. could all those fans say they would have handled it differently under the constraints imposed by the role, no .. they bloody couldn't.hindsight is irrelevant.

daveisaclaret
14-03-2015, 12:47 AM
It's amazing to me that despite all the evidence and even all the confessions of these criminal police figures that people need to create their own logic as to why Liverpool fans were at fault.

yesTHATironingboard
14-03-2015, 12:55 AM
firstly, let's dispel the 'drunken' myth.

when those gates were opened how many of the fans were drunk and how drunk were they?

how many of the fans that spilled in uncontrollably hadn't had anything to drink at all?

i don't know and i'm damned sure unless the government had a secret remote en masse discriminatory breathalizer nobody else does either.

next: out of all of the football matches before and since hillsborough (that required tickets) would you say everyone that turned up to a match without a ticket is somehow complicit in a possible tragedy?

how on earth can one attempt to adopt the same norms and constraints onto the many as onto the one?

Do you think you would be so easy with the guilty cries if you were related to that officer?

the same point could be made for the most heinous criminal. so it's meaningless. if i ran a factory with dangerous machinery and didn't ensure the safety of my employees i'd still be culpable. my honesty and integrity would have no

butterflyvenom
14-03-2015, 01:36 AM
ok ironingboard, let's assume for the arguement, you were in charge on that day.are you suggesting with all your life experiences and faultless decision making which has led to your contributions on a messageboard, you would have got it all spot on? forget your pay rate and status, you alone can decide whether to open or keep a gate shut for crowd safety. Have you never been in too deep in your life? Never !!
So if all you can say is "No, not I, I have never been tested in such a manner" then fair enough. I can tolerate your pinpoint criticism of another flawed human being.

yesTHATironingboard
14-03-2015, 01:47 AM
i really find it hard to answer that question, venom.

i honestly don't know. i would say the ultimate blame may lay higher up the chain.

what i do know however, is that it wouldn't take me a quarter of a century to offer some feeble excuse of an apology.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue
14-03-2015, 03:43 AM
I totally agree with what you say venom.

Bobcloth2
14-03-2015, 06:31 AM
With the police happy to lie about such a tragic event like this it does make you worry how many more miscarriages of justice there has been over the years.

I really do hope this horrible person gets the punishment he deserves.

stacky_claret
14-03-2015, 07:13 AM
People seem to forget that to err is human and tragedies will always happen sadly
It's the lies, cover ups, treatment of relatives,their families and football fans that have taken place since the tragedy that I find most worrying
Will he face charges ? I'm not so certain

Bobcloth2
14-03-2015, 07:22 AM
On Thursday the bloke admitted he realised there was a medical emergency at 3:04.
Did he call for ambulances? No, he called for dog handlers to be sent in.

He was paid to oversee the safety of the public.

morninbob
14-03-2015, 07:43 AM
I don't think duckenfield is the monster many on here would have you believe.

1, He replaced Brian Mole, a very experienced match commander only 19 days before the disaster and was only incharge of 2 low kew sheff wed games before the semi final.

2, He was assured that he had an experienced team around him who had done many semi finals.

3, He didn't know of the tactic of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, others on the day did but nobody told him.

4, Police radio's after 2:30 were useless, making communication impossible.

5, When he said the fans stormed the gate this was a half truth, he didn't authorise the first opening which was done by an officer outside the ground to let some fans in who had to be pulled out from the crush near the turnstiles. Approx 500 fans got in on this the second opening. On the first opening when a drunken fan was ejected, more fans got in. He authorised the third opening when he was told people would die outside if he didn't. If one o

ClaretTony2014
14-03-2015, 09:35 AM
"It's amazing to me that despite all the evidence and even all the confessions of these criminal police figures that people need to create their own logic as to why Liverpool fans were at fault."


That's been going on since the day it happened sadly and continues to be the case despite all the evidence.

BriscoCountyJr
14-03-2015, 11:45 AM
Duckenfield may have made a tragic mistake in opening the gate. He may have made other mistakes. He was out of his depth and the last to admit it.

What weren't mistakes was the lies to the Press. It wasn't a mistake to deflect blame to the Liverpool fans. It wasn't a mistake to change witness and police statements. It wasn't a mistake to collude with the coroner so that much of the damning evidence wasn't heard.

None of that was an error. None of that can ever be adequately apologised for.

One thing I will say is that there is that idea that Hillsborough was preventable. It wasn't. If it hadn't happened there, on that day, it would have happened elsewhere, on another day. Football had been building to that point, in the way it was organised, administered, policed and supported.

ClaretTony2014
14-03-2015, 12:21 PM
"One thing I will say is that there is that idea that Hillsborough was preventable. It wasn't. If it hadn't happened there, on that day, it would have happened elsewhere, on another day."


It was very much preventable and Duckenfield has admitted to now being aware of previous problems they'd had there with semi-finals, even the year before and certainly in 1981. Burnley fans complained of crushing in 1974.

The Leppins Lane and its shocking design was unique and once they'd put the fencing up and split it with fencing into sections, then the potential for major problems was magnified. How anyone responsible for crowd safety could go into that game unaware of all that is absolutely incredible.

BriscoCountyJr
14-03-2015, 12:41 PM
My point is that the state of Hillsborough in particular and football in general was such that the tragedy was inevitable. Like you say, they had got away with it in 1974, in 1980, in 1981. If they had got away with it in 1989, then nothing would have changed, and we would be mourning dead football supporters killed in the early 90s instead.

Football kept dodging the bullet of a Hillsborough from the day the fences went up in stadiums. Because they kept getting away with it, there was no motivation to change. 15th April 1989 was simply the day that luck ran out.

yesTHATironingboard
14-03-2015, 12:49 PM
recognise the danger then do nothing until disaster strikes.

it's the english way.