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cheshiresetclaret
31-03-2015, 11:12 PM
I wondered what your thoughts are on John Barnes in saying that his colour is the reason for him not getting more management opportunities.
My view is that he does have a point of course, on the stats alone, but I personally think he does not come across as having much authority - which could be something to do with his accent as opposed to his colour ( although of course the two are inter-related). It is no accident that Scots do well in management - and a lot is to do with the authority that a Scottish accent gives, particlarly a Glasgow one - and why call centres often chose Scotland to deal with customers.
If John Barnes had a tough Glasgow accent ( say because he had migrated to Scotland as opposed to England as a kid) , then I reckon he would stand a much better chance in management.
Geordies dont do well in management because their accent lacks authority - Gazza,, Shearer, Waddle ,Bobby Charlton, Lee Clark, Tony Mowbray - the exceptions Bobby Robson and Jackie Charlton spoke

ClaretTony2014
31-03-2015, 11:18 PM
"It is no accident that Scots do well in management"

You mean bullsh!ting like Coyle?


"Geordies dont do well in management because their accent lacks authority"

Harry Potts.

Bin_Ont_Turf
31-03-2015, 11:22 PM
'My view is that he does have a point of course'


He really doesn't.

Look at me, look at me, I was a good footballer once of a day.

Yes but you are a crap manager so shut your whinging race card up.

You fat beggar.

yesTHATironingboard
31-03-2015, 11:23 PM
his failure in management is nowt to do with his race.

ClaretTony2014
31-03-2015, 11:26 PM
"his failure in management is nowt to do with his race."

I was told, from the most reliable of sources, that he was a complete joke at Tranmere. It's a shame that he can't see he's not up to the management job rather than blaming it on his colour. I've recorded the programme but not seen it yet.

what_no_pies
31-03-2015, 11:28 PM
Paul Ince said the same. Incidentally, he's another rubbish manager.

daveisaclaret
31-03-2015, 11:33 PM
This time last year there was one black manager in the Football League/Prem. Now there are five.

That is probably a small step considering the % of footballers in those leagues who are black, but it's a huge step in pretty much every other regard.

I think Barnes and Ince massively turn every football fan off the idea of any sort of initiatives to aid and encourage black footballers getting into management and to get rid of discrimination in the hiring of football managers with what are effectively personal vendettas hidden behind this excuse.

The Bedlington Terrier
01-04-2015, 01:48 AM
Our manager is a person of colour (ginger) and it does not seem to hold him back!
If the lads of any colour can get their badges whilst still playing and have the determination and charisma, coupled with great man management skills and tactical nous, nothing will hold them back.
Unfortunately Barnes does not seem to fit that criteria and Ince and charisma are not altogether synonymous!

Luppy
01-04-2015, 06:45 AM
Like Tony I've recorded it, purely on the back of the trailer and the race card. Perhaps he should look at his actual managerial record first?

As for the Geordie comment, Sir Bobby Robson seemed to do ok - and I'm not sure how many games Steve Bruce has been in charge as a manager now, but he's racked a few up now...

Bobcloth2
01-04-2015, 06:51 AM
As post 7 says, turning people against it if anything.

Not as much as this idiot though. (At the bottom of the link)

"But I am Sol Campbell" - view external link (http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/mar/28/duncan-edwards-original-boy-wonder-greatest)

Glass3QtsEmpty
01-04-2015, 07:23 AM
What about Lee Clark ? Doing a fantastic job at Blackpool. I totally agree about the accent thing, how many Brummie Managers are there about ?

John Barnes, Paul Ince, both great footballers both s*** Managers.

Does anybody notice the colour of anyone's skin these days ? Apart from the odd retard from Chelsea.

Caernarfon_Claret
01-04-2015, 08:51 AM
Was not the most successful English manager of recentish times from the North East - a Mackem possibly?

Born in Hetton-le-Hole, County Durham it says here.

BOB PAISLEY.

Won 20 major honours in 9 seasons.


Edit - Hetton-le-Hole is 7 miles from Sunderland apparently - as the ant crawls.

mkmel
01-04-2015, 09:00 AM
Hetton le Hole is also where Claret legend Ralph Coates was born if I'm not mistaken

Caernarfon_Claret
01-04-2015, 09:04 AM
That's is confirmed by that font of all knowledge Wikipedia.

List of Sports people born there:

Allan Ball, former footballer, now honorary director of Queen of the South F.C.
Ralph Coates, former football player (Burnley and Tottenham Hotspur)
Bob Paisley, former football player and manager (Liverpool F.C.)
Harry Potts, former football player and manager (Burnley F.C.)
Bryan "Pop" Robson, former footballer (Sunderland F.C. and Newcastle United F.C.)


Edit and from 'The World of Music':

Trevor Horn.

Together everyone:

'VIDEO KILLED THE RADIO STAR...in my mind and in my car.'

silkyskills1
01-04-2015, 09:38 AM
'Jackie Charlton...own distinct brand of adapted Geordie'

Nothing adapted or even adopted. He's from Ashington for god's sake.

Caernarfon_Claret
01-04-2015, 09:50 AM
I heard John Barnes yesterday.

He wasn't saying he was good, just that I might have had more opportunities in Management if he were white.

There are lots of examples of white managers who are a failure at one club getting another chance at another club almost straight away after being sacked, sometimes doing well at the next job.

He also said we are all racist in the fact that we all have a degree of prejudice no matter if we are aware of it or not.

He thinks that Chairmen are more patient with white managers, than they are with black managers, and failure in one job doesn't hinder your future prospects in management as much when you are white.

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 09:59 AM
Re the OP...I am genuinely interested, not being mischievous or second guessing the answer or anything else that would annoy some around here..

In view of the large number of black footballers that have had successful football careers in England at the top level [ie: Division One or PL] in the last 40 years or so, [that is hundreds and hundreds of them] going back to Viv Anderson, Cyrille Regis, the late Laurie Cunningham...why have there been so few black managers at the top end of English football in the same period?..[probably only a couple of dozen of them...these numbers are disproportionately low?]

Does anyone claim to know the answer?

stevie_thunder
01-04-2015, 10:02 AM
"There are lots of examples of white managers who are a failure at one club getting another chance at another club almost straight away after being sacked, sometimes doing well at the next job"

"He thinks that... failure in one job doesn't hinder your future prospects in management as much when you are white."

Both those statements are probably true but what are the real reasons for it? I suspect that chairmen see the likelihood of being branded racist if and when they sack a black manager as too much of a risk.

The likes of John Barnes coming out in regularly in public making such accusations just reinforces this belief.

moltisanti
01-04-2015, 10:32 AM
Maybe because they don't obtain their coaching badges Hamstead

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 11:08 AM
Well that is a fair enough starting point moltisanti, but it sort of begs the question..'why does that happen'?

Having had a successful football career at top level, say up to age 35, all top footballers then look to what they do next? If lots of present day footballers head off to get their coaching badges, and their black colleagues choose not to, for some reason/reasons then what are those reasons?

It may well be of course that plenty of black ex-footballers, have acquired or are acquiring the relevant coaching qualifications at this time.

chobulous
01-04-2015, 11:15 AM
"I suspect that chairmen see the likelihood of being branded racist if and when they sack a black manager as too much of a risk."

And therefore racist by definition ie precluding someome from something because of something connected to their race.

Personally I think that that sort of attitude is just an excuse specifically designed to justify not employing a black person. In the same way that a black person claiming they had been sacked because the chairman was racist wouldn't hold water, particularly in football.

Football is mainly results driven, if you don't get the results you lose your job.

Barnes and Ince didn't get the results. Sol Campbell, I guess, is too bone idle to get his coaching badges and expects everything to be handed to him because he is Sol Campbell.

All the above are good reasons not to employ someone

Caernarfon_Claret
01-04-2015, 11:25 AM
Chris Hughton and Chris Powell are and should continue to get opportunities, certainly at Championship level clubs.

bf2k
01-04-2015, 11:59 AM
How dare you call into question Paul Ince's management skills. Look at the fine work he put in at Blackburn and latterly Blackpool.

NottsClaret
01-04-2015, 12:11 PM
We have this debate three or four times a season, usually when Ince fails to get a job.

As said above, it's pointless even having the discussion unless someone has figures on how many black managers have got the relevant badges, done the coaching and put themselves forward for jobs.

Barnes was a great player though.

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 12:17 PM
24..

'We have this debate three or four times a season, usually when Ince fails to get a job.

As said above, it's pointless even having the discussion..'


Do you think this thread should stop right here then..?

LincolnClaret
01-04-2015, 12:17 PM
Maybe I'm naive but I like to think managers with potential continue to get jobs, regardless of colour. If you show promise in a job but it doesn't work out then you clearly shouldn't be thrown on the scrap heap.

In the case of John Barnes it's hard to justify he did a good job anywhere. He somehow managed to lose 8 out 29 games at Celtic. That's remarkable given the teams they play up there. And then he followed that up with 8 defeats in 12 at Tranmere. I don't think any potential employer is going to look at that and be impressed. Maybe he can complain that his Managerial career has been judged too harshly / quickly, given he's only managed around 50 games, but football is an unforgiving sport. If you fail you're gone, simple as that.

Paul Ince, on the other hand, has managed the best part of 250 games at Macclesfield, MK Dons, Rover, Blackpool and Notts County. He started well at Macclesfield and got his reward with the MK Dons job. He did well at MK Dons and got his reward with

ClaretTony2014
01-04-2015, 12:24 PM
"Was not the most successful English manager of recentish times from the North East - a Mackem possibly?

Born in Hetton-le-Hole, County Durham it says here.

BOB PAISLEY."



He was and he wasn't the first title winning manager from Hetton-le-Hole, it's where Harry Potts was from.

The picture below is of our Premier League reserve game v Sunderland in 2009 at Hetton. The building behind the goal is the Bob Paisley Centre.

http://pictures.footymad.net/upload/104/395150-92.jpg

NottsClaret
01-04-2015, 12:37 PM
"Do you think this thread should stop right here then..?"

Not at all hammy. As long as we know that in the absence of any reliable, meaningful figures it's a debate based on nothing more than a hunch, the odd prejudice and some ill-informed opinion then that's all good. That's what the internet is built on.

ClaretTony2014
01-04-2015, 12:43 PM
Look at the reason Barnes gave for having to wait so long between the Celtic and Tranmere jobs. He's been beating the same, clearly incorrect, drum for far too long. - view external link (http://goo.gl/lj3FnH)

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 12:45 PM
chobulous..21

You say..

'Sol Campbell, I guess, is too bone idle to get his coaching badges and expects everything to be handed to him because he is Sol Campbell'..

chobulous..If you google..'black people, racial stereotypes' there are a substantial number of references and articles...here are a few of the titles..


'What is the history of the "lazy black American" stereotype ..?'

'10 Unbelievable Myths and Stereotypes About Black People'..[one of which is 'laziness']

'Black people need more than 'lazy stereotypes' on film and TV'

'Black actors leave Britain to escape 'lazy stereotypes',..

'Black Britons Subject To 'Lazy Stereotypes', says..

'Where did the stereotype of black people being lazy come from ...? [well one bloke on ClaretsMad did his bit for the cause..]

'Quote by Lance Crouther: “There's a stereotype that black people are lazy..' [the article carries on in that vein]


There are many more similar references/articles on the internet..dozens of them.


The simple a

ClaretTony2014
01-04-2015, 12:45 PM
And the same newspaper reckoned the Tranmere gamble was doomed to fail from the start.

Barnes is clearly a poor manager. - view external link (http://goo.gl/qzVF7Q)

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 12:50 PM
- not sure why this discussion always comes back to
Paul Ince [again]..:blue: now John Barnes..one or two others...it's a much bigger issue than that is it not?

ClaretTony2014
01-04-2015, 12:54 PM
It's about John Barnes because of last night's television programme

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 01:05 PM
- sorry I typed 32 before seeing post 31.

The OP doesn't refer to a TV programme, I haven't seen it didn't know it was on.

The Bedlington Terrier
01-04-2015, 01:17 PM
Playing the race card in contemporary multicultural Britain is wearing a bit thin now. The colour of the England team last night would substantiate that! Barnes colour did not prevent him from having a successful playing career. He should just accept that he is gash as a manager!

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 01:40 PM
35..

With respect I think that you are missing the point.

I don't think anyone suggests anywhere that black professional footballers in the English leagues are discriminated against or left out of teams because of their colour.

They are assets to their teams and are often way too good to leave out...how many examples of that do you want?

- some people do believe though that at coach/ manager level there may be some discrimination going on...otherwise why hundreds and hundreds of successful black players [here and in Europe] over 30-40 years, in comparison to only a couple of dozen black managers?

I don't know why that is...I wondered if anyone else had any clues.

Bobcloth2
01-04-2015, 02:01 PM
I find it hard to believe that clubs are happy to pick black players if it helps them be successful but suddenly change their minds when it comes to management.

Clubs are desperate to be successful at all levels because that's where the most money is, would they really not want to give themselves the best chance with the best manager?

BasilofCliviger
01-04-2015, 02:04 PM
John Barnes's views are very bigotted, he clearly has a problem.

chobulous
01-04-2015, 02:08 PM
Hamstead your argument is ridiculous. I never said, nor did I infer that Sol Campbell was idle because he was black. Nor did I attempt to re-inforce a racial streotype that all black people are idle, nor did I attempt to infer that all idle people are black. That is a totally spurious point that you have raised, I guess to enable you to show righteous indignation and how much you are with the programme.

For your benefit I will type this slowly and in capitals, but please don't think that I am shouting at you.

OK here goes.

I AM SAYING THAT SOL CAMPBELL IS BONE IDLE BECAUSE APPARENTLY HE FEELS THAT BECAUSE "HE IS SOL CAMPBELL" AND FOR NO OTHER REASON, HE SHOULD BE GIVEN READY MADE OPPORTUNITIES IN THE FIELD OF FOOTBALL MANAGEMENT. ATTAINING COACHING BADGES, LIKE FOR INSTANCE GARY NEVILLE, IS NOT SOMETHING HE FEELS HE NEED CONCERN HIMSELF WITH BECAUSE "HE IS SOL CAMPBELL" THE FACT THAT SOL CAMPBELL IS BLACK IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THIS, IT IS HIS SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT THAT PROMPTS ME

Goody1975
01-04-2015, 03:46 PM
I was flicking through items i had saved on my Sky box this week and one of them is Match of the Day at 50, at the end they are talking to Alan Hansen about his career on the programme and he says when he retired at Liverpool he expected the phone to ring with job offers but it just never happened, he eventually touted himself around and got some work doing punditry which eventually got him the position on MOTD, it shows a WHITE guy who was even more successful than Barnes can end up in the wilderness and be overlooked.

Barnes got his chance and failed and like a lot of other managers one failure early in your career can be the end of you.

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 03:59 PM
chobulous..it's Hampstead not wot you said.

You should calm down a bit.
No need for capitals I am neither blind nor thick

I commented on what you typed not what you 'think'.
I am not on any 'programme'
Your comments about Sol Campbell are there to see..that is all I commented on.
If you look at the wide range of sources that I quoted it is clear that vast numbers of people believe that black people are lazy and are not fit for management roles...this is of course rubbish but if enough people casually throw around the 'lazy' comment, or comments like yours then it quickly becomes almost established 'fact'.

There is a clear disparity in the 'football player' percentages and the 'football coach/ manager percentages..it has been there a long time, and it exists in other sports.
I just asked if anyone could reasonably explain it other than saying that Ince and Barnes and a few others 'were crap'.

moltisanti
01-04-2015, 04:06 PM
Barnes got his chance and failed and like a lot of other managers one failure early in your career can be the end of you.

Exactly , like Waddle, B Charlton, and Buchan to just 3

chobulous
01-04-2015, 04:43 PM
You clearly said in your post that I believed black people were lazy. That is not the case, and nothing I said should lead you to believe that. I said that I thought Sol Campbell was lazy, the reason being that I believe from his comments he wants to be given opportunities without having to do the groundwork to merit being offered those opportunities. At no point did I infer that he was black and therefor lazy.

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 05:21 PM
'You said very clearly in your post that I believed black people were lazy.'

I did not.
I choose words carefully on here.
Show me where I said that clearly.

I am not on your case chobulous, people have to be careful about the words they use on forums. If we are talking about why top black football players don't land top managerial jobs then it is not helpful to start referring to Sol Campbell as 'bone idle' especially as...
1. he had a top class football career
2. there is a load of internet info linking the black colour of people to 'laziness'..it's not helpful to encourage that.

Not many answers to the big question.

There is another explanation (out there) for top black footballers to not make the jump or transition into 'managership'.. not yet mentioned on this thread.

Bobcloth2
01-04-2015, 05:43 PM
You did bang on about some sort of link that people see between black people and laziness and then say "if enough people believe this sort of stuff that you believe about black people"

He never once said black people were lazy, he said he thinks Campbell is lazy for the reasons he's outlined.

chobulous
01-04-2015, 06:17 PM
"That you believe about black people"
You said you choose your words carefully. It seems pretty clear to me that you were very careful to say that I believe that all black people are lazy.

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 06:22 PM
'You did bang on about some sort of link'..

Yes quite.. that is a large part of the problem... people being vague about what they mean.. so in your eyes 'they bang on about' stuff. This can mean ( and I don't mean the poster chobulous) that people can be casually racist and this type of language takes hold, and becomes accepted 'knowledge'.

I know exactly what I've read and what I've said, cheers for that.
What are you his minder?..can he not answer my question clearly himself?

The Big Question on this thread...answers there have been none.

Bobcloth2
01-04-2015, 06:37 PM
You just continue to make a fool of yourself Hampstead.

I wonder how many people 'believe' that.

chobulous
01-04-2015, 06:50 PM
It's like "A Message From The Emperor" is this.You know there's a message, but no matter how much you strive, how many halls you cross, chambers you enter or doors you walk through you will never get to that place where the message will be heard.

So I will try another tack.

It's not up to me to answer why there are a disproportionately low number of black managers. My original post did not try to only address that. My post tried to address why Sol Campbell was not a top manager. My contention was that he was not prepared to put in the work required ergo in that respect he is lazy, not because he is black.

Being black and being lazy are not mutually inclusive nor are they mutually exclusive. You read something in my post that just was not there.

By the way, there probably is still institutional racism in football but the way to defeat it is to strive to succeed by being better at your job than your rivals not by expecting to have success handed to you.

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 06:53 PM
Really?
I have not insulted anyone on this thread, yet you call me a fool..?
You've only been on CM since yesterday...?
Who are you?

I stand by what I have said.. this is an important issue, if controversial.
There are a couple of big important questions to be answered, IMO.

Bobcloth2
01-04-2015, 07:17 PM
Saying that someone had called all black people lazy when he's done nothing of the sort is a foolish thing to do. To then try and pretend you didn't is more foolish.

Wouldn't like to speak for the other poster but I'd be pretty insulted if a fool did that to me.

chobulous
01-04-2015, 07:48 PM
Not insulted, just exasperated that I have to resort to referencing Kafka to get my point across.

It has become fashionable to use racism as a reason for everything. To a certain extent I can see the point of people who actually have been victims of racism in being suspicious of other people's motives when they feel they have been denied opportunities, if those people have made a genuine attempt to progress in their chosen field. I have no sympathy for people who try to lecture about racism that was never there in the first place, especially in such a condescending way.

ChorltonCharlie
01-04-2015, 08:30 PM
As much as John Barnes annoys me, I don't think he's to blame for these latest comments. The media (especially BBC) have had a bug in their behind about this for a while, and seem to like any opportunity to get the issue to raise it's head. They love a Barnes or a Campbell to play the race card, and pay a lot more attention to it than anyone coming out with a good counter argument, even if that's a black manager. The demographics in football are so screwed it's difficult to put any kind of logic to what it should be. Should footballers fit the demographics of the country, because that's obviously not happening. Should managers demographics fit those of players, and should that be at Premier League level, or all professional clubs? If you put in rules that try and do this, you're going to upset the balance one way or another.

Personally I doubt there's much conscious discrimination when appointing managers/coaches, though that's not to say that people don't have prejudices sub-consciou

hampsteadclaret
01-04-2015, 08:53 PM
chobulous..post 49...you say..

'It's not up to me to answer why there are a disproportionately low number of black managers'

- but that is what this thread is about?

chobulous...'there probably is still institutional racism in football'..

We got there in the end.
I didn't say that in my first post on here so as not to bias the thread. Well said though chobulous, that is where I am coming from, cheers for that.

- then you say..'the way to defeat it is to strive to succeed by being better at your job than your rivals not by expecting to have success handed to you..'

I think I agree with that [and I am not talking here about Ince, Barnes, or Sol Campbell]...I am talking about all those hundreds and hundreds of black ex-footballers who would quite like a managerial post, but who would get nowhere near a short list..they know that so they don't apply. It is also the reason [and this bit is an opinion] why they don't go for the coaching badges...most of them think that that is a co

Bobcloth2
01-04-2015, 09:03 PM
You, not people.
More than one day in March.
Previously bobcloth1.
Consider Sol Campbell an idiot, though do not consider all black people idiots, in case you get confused and start being foolish again.

chobulous
01-04-2015, 10:14 PM
We got there a long time ago, you just chose to ignore it I favour of your spurious " you are a racist" denunciation.

By the way when was the length of time someone had posted a measure of their ability to put forward a coherent argument?

ClaretMatt4
02-04-2015, 07:40 AM
I can't believe you're actually referring the length of time somebody has been on here.

I don't believe in a sport that is so driven by money and thus success (well, getting to the PL) there would be any room for choosing managers because of their ethnicity. It just doesn't make any sense. There are a few dinosaurs out there as chairman, but generally I can't see it being a serious issue.

The serious issue is the lack of numbers of black coaches who are eligible and qualified to be managers. This is probably an after effect of the 80s and part of the 90s when racism was a serious issue in football in this country. As this has died down I think more black coaches will emerge and thus more good ones. I hope no black player believes it is pointless to get his badges in this day and age when anti racism is such a big part of football (and quite rightly).

If you're good enough you're good enough. It will just take time for the trickling effect of this to pass down.

The Rooney Rule

caballo
02-04-2015, 09:34 AM
File thread under 'Garth Crooks'.

yorksclaret
02-04-2015, 10:21 AM
.I am talking about all those hundreds and hundreds of black ex-footballers who would quite like a managerial post, but who would get nowhere near a short list..they know that so they don't apply.



Well maybe if they worked hard to get their badges, studied training methods and managerial techniques, got good at their job and worked their way up, then maybe they'd get a chance.

Or in other words, weren't so lazy.


Rather like the hundreds and hundreds of white ex-footballers who'd 'quite like a managerial post'.

ClaretMatt4
02-04-2015, 12:13 PM
Not enough to say they are lazy Yorks. Can't be the only reason!!

moltisanti
02-04-2015, 12:21 PM
Chris Ramsey now comes out and says he will find it difficult to get a job because he is black
Nothing to do with 5 defeats on the bounce then Chris

Claret_Russ
02-04-2015, 12:27 PM
Can we assume that Hampstead's attempt to derail this thread with moronic, unjustified accusations of racism are over now? Good. Back to the point in hand...

The whole Rooney rule / widespread prejudice against black managers campaign has no real foundation. It's based entirely on nonsensical statistics. Football manager and football player are completely different jobs with completely different skill sets. There is no more reason to think that the ethnic diversity of each job should be the same than there is between football managers and plumbers or bus drivers or neurosurgeons.

If we really must (for whatever reason) compare ethnic diversity among football managers with anything then surely it should be the wider population. The black population of the UK is around 3% of the overall population so proportionally there should be around 3 black managers. By that logic there are currently nearly twice as many black managers as there should be. I don't know exactly what the numbers are

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 12:39 PM
There has been quite a lot in the press recently about the ex-footballer Brian Deane..lots of stuff online, I have linked one of them below. His story is worth a read..

A couple of things from the article..

'There are just four black or minority ethnic (BME) football managers currently working at the 92 clubs in the Premier League and Football League – Huddersfield Town’s Chris Powell, Carlisle United’s Keith Curle, Leyton Orient’s Fabio Liverani and Burton’s Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink. This is in stark contrast to representation on the pitch, where around 25% of players across the four English leagues are black'..

- so post 49..'rather like the hundreds and hundreds of white ex-footballers who'd quite like a managerial post'

What are you talking about yorks claret..the white ex-footballers that you mention have in fact got those managerial posts... about 95% of them anyway.
The other 4-5% of jobs have gone to black ex-footballers, despite the fact that 'around 25% of players across

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 12:45 PM
post 62..

Once you feel the need to start chuckin' the word 'moronic' around in your first line, you've lost the argument haven't you?

Well done.

chobulous
02-04-2015, 12:49 PM
Black people are getting more opportunities in football, that is the truth. In the 1970s you could count the number of black players on the fingers of one hand. Now, comparatively speaking they are massively over-represented compared to the demographic. I don't think that is a good or a bad thing, It's just the way it is. The reasons for this are complicated I think, but the amount of money available, the saturation coverage etc all provide a show case for the talents of black players more than ever was available in the 70s and 80s. Most top clubs want big squads full of top players, there is no room for passengers both on and off the pitch.

This has been the situation since the inception of the Premier League and Sky coverage. There a more and more black players from every corner of the world. Who remembers the patronising coverage from TV pundits when African nations first started competing at the world cup. Now a large number of top European clubs have first team players from Afric

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 01:07 PM
Claret_Russ...When I said yesterday in post 44..

'There is another explanation (out there) for top black footballers to not make the jump or transition into 'managership'..[not yet mentioned on this thread]

- you are getting quite close to that explanation, when you say [57]..'football manager and football player are completely different jobs with different skill sets'.

What exactly do you mean by that statement, could you be very clear?

[By the way...Alex Ferguson, Bill Shankly, Don Revie, Mark Hughes, Gary Monk, Joe Mercer, Eddie Howe, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Keegan, Glenn Hoddle, David Moyes, Brian Robson, Sean Dyche and hundreds and hundreds of others made the transition easily enough..]

There were no 'skill set' issues with that lot.

distortiondave
02-04-2015, 01:09 PM
Almost half (25/57) of national coaches of African sides are white, so are black people not getting jobs in Africa because their football associations are racist?

yorksclaret
02-04-2015, 01:12 PM
Interesting mention of the African nations.
How many of the top black African sides have a black manager?

Ivory Coast, Ghana, Cameroon, Guinea - all managed by whites. Are these Associations (made up of blacks) being racist towards their own, or are they just appointing the right man for job regardless of the colour of their skin?

Like everyone else.


edit. You must be a faster typer than me, dd.

yorksclaret
02-04-2015, 01:19 PM
I'll help you out hampstead. When he says;

'football manager and football player are completely different jobs with different skill sets',

I think he means football manager and football player are completely different jobs with different skill sets.

Just guessin', like.

Claret_Russ
02-04-2015, 01:22 PM
Hampstead - I used the word moronic because that's exactly what your attempt to portray chobulous as racist was. I'd say it was a lazy accusation but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to use that word.

As for different skill sets, I'd have thought that was obvious. One involves primarily physical attributes, the other is about man management, negotiation and developing and implementing strategies in line with those dictated by the board of directors. Of course some people will bridge that gap, but by no means does it follow that being good at one job makes you good at the other.

If you're good at flipping burgers does that mean you're ready to manage a restaurant?

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 01:29 PM
I am not an expert on African football but I will hazard a guess at an answer..

International football on that continent is still in it's infancy, I think most would agree on that...African countries have not won a World Cup nor have they come anywhere near winning one.

So at the highest level, they are inexperienced...that goes for footballers, referees, administrators and coaches/managers...if they are to 'catch up' quickly [Europeans and South Americans have been playing in World Cup tournaments since 1930] then they need to buy in the experience that they themselves do not have, for example..

So Alain Giresse is managing Senegal.
Didier Six is managing Togo.

I would imagine that/hope that these two managers would have lots of youngish African inexperienced football talents around them each day, so that these apprentices can learn on the job, how it's done.

So, in answer to your question the answer is no...I think the African Football Associations are simply being pragmatic.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 01:51 PM
70.

Reading your second paragraph then, bearing in mind the numerical disparencies re footballers and coach's as referred to above, what are you saying there about white ex-footballer's skill sets, and black ex-footballer's skill sets?

Also..to set the record straight for me..in post 56 the bloke chobulous quotes me as saying..

'you are a racist'.

Nowhere on this thread have I said this..please show me [anybody] where I made this comment. If I didn't say it, it should not be in quotation marks. I should have corrected this earlier, bause some people have read that and believe it was said.

Furthermore in your first line [62] you say..

'Can we assume that Hampstead's attempt to derail this thread with moronic, unjustified accusations of racism are over now. Good..back to the point in hand'

What? The first line of the OP says this..

'I wondered what your thoughts are on John Barnes in saying that his colour is the reason for him not getting more management opportunities'?

So..Bar

yorksclaret
02-04-2015, 01:55 PM
There's the point. Team wanting to better itself appoints best man for job.
Be it Senegal, Swansea or Skelmersdale.

To suggest white men making the decision are racist and black men making the same decision are 'pragmatic' is ridiculous.

And if was Senegalese, I would certainly hope my teams' manager didn't surround himself with inexperienced talent just cos they happened to have the same skin colour as me.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 01:55 PM
68...

They are..

'just appointing the right man for the job'

as I explained.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 02:04 PM
69..looks like you didn't answer the question there yorks if you don't mind me saying...you ducked it.

It's a very important question, as in..

You've got two very distinct groups.
One group possess a very clear and distinct skill set.
The other group do not.

This affects job opportunities[football management] on a grand scale.

I am very interested as to how this situation comes about therefore..?


Surely yorks or Claret_Russ can clearly explain what they mean on this 'skill set' issue..?

yorksclaret
02-04-2015, 02:05 PM
So we agree the best man for the job is white.

So Barnes crying that blacks don't get the opportunity because of their skin colour when it's really because they're not good enough makes no sense at all then.

Claret_Russ
02-04-2015, 02:18 PM
Christ, Hampstead. Are you being deliberately difficult? Two jobs, two different skill sets, as I've quite clearly outlined. There is no logic in suggesting that people should move from one to the other in an ethnically proportional fashion.

It's quite obvious that you're hell bent on inferring racism from every comment on this thread and it's equally obvious what you're angling at with your repeated picking at this point instead of just accepting the clear, simple explanation I've already given. For the record, you're miles off, but if it helps you to believe otherwise you feel free.

chobulous
02-04-2015, 02:24 PM
You're playing at semantics now Hampstead. I put the "you are a racist" in quotations to qualify your denunciation. It wasn't meant to be a direct quote and you probably know that. You however clearly said that I believed all black people were lazy and by inference I was racist. There's no getting away from that. Just put your hands up to that and admit you jumped the gun and looked for something that was not there.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 02:25 PM
76..in the African football example then yes, for the reasons I explained to do with 'inexperience at World Cup level'.

That 'inexperience' issue hardly applies here with club Premier League club histories going back to the nineteenth century.

'when it's really because they're not good enough'

Well re the stats above..once more here..

' One, whom he prefers not to, is a 40-something ex-pro who played more than 500 matches at Premier League and Championship level and now holds a Uefa Pro Licence, the highest coaching qualification. He has applied for 43 jobs in football clubs, but only received three interviews.'

It doesn't really add up for me, that this black ex-footballer with his CV showing 500+ matches at top level and a top coaching qualification, can't get more than 3 interviews out of 43 attempts.

So he's either not 'good enough' or loads of Football Chairmen have a problem with black blokes running the playing side of things at their club.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 02:31 PM
'You're playing at semantics now Hampstead. I put the "you are a racist" in quotations to qualify your denunciation. It wasn't meant to be a direct quote and you probably know that.'



78..Really..what are you talking about?

JohnMcGreal
02-04-2015, 02:32 PM
It is a bit strange how few black managers there are. It's also strange how few black goalkeepers there are.
It's even stranger that people from a south Asian background make up around 5% of the population, yet there are hardly any who become professional footballers.

Is it purely down to race? I doubt it. I think the reasons are for more complex, and will never be unearthed on a messageboard.

yorksclaret
02-04-2015, 02:42 PM
Russ knows.
One word out of place or a sentence to misconstrue and hampstead'll be branding someone a racist (again) and on the blower to 'Kick It Out' faster than a ... man running from a rape scene (there's one for ya).


But maybe someone who looks at footballers and sees 'two very distinct groups' based on skin colour should maybe have a word with themselves first.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 02:56 PM
77..you are still ducking the question Claret_Russ and then telling me that you've given me a clear simple explanation.


I can't spend all day on here, so I will ask you one more time about your 'skill sets' [post 70] comment because it was illuminating [at least to me].

So bearing in mind what has been said on this thread previously..we have two distinct groups..

black ex-professional footballers
white ex-professional footballers

The first group arguably get a poor deal when it comes to moving on from being a football player to being a coach/manager..in the main they cannot get managerial jobs in football.

The white ex-footballers pick up 94/95% of the jobs in question.

- loads of statistics on this, including on this thread.

This is an unusual state of affairs.

You suggest that this is because..

'Football manager and football player are completely different jobs with completely different skill sets.'

So what is it about the two distinct groups, that one has considerable su

Claret_Russ
02-04-2015, 03:23 PM
Why don't you try picking up on the point I'm making instead of trying to prove something from a single sentence? The statistical anomaly isn't that there are so few black managers. It's that there are so many black footballers. Football manager and football player are very different jobs so there is no reason that this statistical anomaly should be automatically replicated in both jobs, and the apparent belief that it should seemingly underpins your entire argument.

I can't be any clearer than that, if you're too busy to think it through and understand it then feel free not to waste any more time on it.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 03:31 PM
82..

- got you there yorks..

You tried to turn the racist angle in on me..
Tricky.

Your comment yorks reminds me of the stories of the Deep South in the US when slavery was very prominent..to justify slavery the white folk had to make out that black people were lazy and indolent and therefore they had to be chained [so they wouldn't run off] and whipped regularly to keep them working, so lazy were they.

Meanwhile the well dressed land-owning, slave-owning white folk were sat on the verandah sipping gin and tonics, being fanned, while the lazy black slaves toiled in the cotton fields from dawn until dusk, under the burning sun. So consumed with guilt at how odd this state of affairs was, were the white folk, that they had to insist all the louder all the more often, how lazy and no good their black perspiring slaves were.

This helped them get through the day.

NottsClaret
02-04-2015, 03:33 PM
Russ makes a fair point. I'm not sure why this issue even gets so much publicity, we're talking about 92 jobs among millions.

But the breakdown of black people in management positions is about spot on for the UK as a whole. As he says, it's the number of black footballers which is the anomaly.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 03:42 PM
84..

'instead of trying to prove something from a single sentence?'

Another one who regrets his choice of words.

..single sentence, single paragraph does it matter?

I am perplexed though as to why a group of athletic black men [footballers] can reach the top of the game, internationally, the lot, honours and trophies everywhere, world stars many of them...their white colleagues doing just the same...and yet when it comes to picking the next manager, one group lose out very badly because they have an inappropriate 'skill set'.


Well they won't acquire it either until they get a few more opportunities.

Claret_Russ
02-04-2015, 03:51 PM
The only thing I regret is entering into this utterly futile debate with you.

moltisanti
02-04-2015, 04:06 PM
How many opportunities
Barnes got a managers chance and like terry O’connor at wolves it proved he was not a manager. Their colour didnt stop either of them being given a chance as a Manager despite them only ever being a coach before did it.

Martin Samuel in the Mail responded to John Barnes claim the other day that his colour stopped him getting another job after being manager at tranmere… he said:

that Barnes flopped at Celtic then got a chance at tranmere, where he then had a disaster and that history shows that nearly every manager sacked by tranmere since him (bar 1) has failed to get another job and they were all white. He also said that Jason Macateer Barnes’ assistant has likewise not had another job in football.. I think he is white isn’t he ?

Curle and Ince – how many chances ??

Hughton – got ability as a manager – got a job !!
Powell – useless – got a job !!

They say the problem is that so few black players will do the coaching badges so what are they supposed

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 04:31 PM
88..

I can well understand your regrets.

As for 'utterly futile debate'..have you seen some of the stuff on here that gets debated?

In your first sentence on a thread that you join, you should not describe someone as 'moronic' simply because they do not subscribe to your point of view.

ecc
02-04-2015, 04:37 PM
Is Middlesbrough in the North-East? Brian Clough was born there.

cheshiresetclaret
02-04-2015, 05:14 PM
thanks for all the comments. I wasn't surprised to see the criticism for Barnes and Ince. My own view is that the issue is about authority and norms in the relevant section of society. There is only 1 black chief exec of a ftse company and very few black faces in the board room. There are disproportionately few black faces ( I am talking Afro Caribbean as opposed to Asian other ethnic groups) in the professions in the UK - although there are probably a fairer representation of Asians (eg in law and accountancy - particularly in South East). This is to do with what is perceived as normal and acceptable - sounds ridiculously simple but once we see more black faces in those sections of society then it will become more normal and those applicants wont be put off and everyone will be more comfortable - but taking the professions I think because there are so few black faces (particularly in the North) a lot of people subconsciously think it sort of odd/strange/surprising if a colleague is bl

Claret_Russ
02-04-2015, 05:56 PM
Hampstead - I don't for one second expect this to register since you seem incapable of reading words from a page without wilfully misinterpreting them or twisting to a point where they suit the argument you want to make, but for the record:

I didn't call you moronic. I called your attempt to portray chobulous as a racist moronic (and you very clearly did.) Maybe you think putting words into somebody's mouth and then using them to suggest they are racist is decent behaviour, but I think it's moronic and I stand by that.

I also never referred to the topic of this debate as futile - merely that I had the misfortune to debate it with you. That's nothing to do with the superior intellect and moral standpoint you seem to believe you hold by the way, it's because your debating style is essentially that of a sixth form wannabe politician which makes any attempt to engage you in reasonable conversation an utter waste of time.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 05:56 PM
Well said, I think you make some sound points.

It is a complicated issue as JM said up the thread.

Change will occur but it comes slowly.

hampsteadclaret
02-04-2015, 05:57 PM
In 94 I am referring to post 92.

moltisanti
02-04-2015, 06:04 PM
Thats the first time I've seen charisma and Jason Roberts appear in the same sentence

cheshiresetclaret
02-04-2015, 08:08 PM
Jason Roberts comes across like a shop steward for the black footballers union and can get up your nose but he happens to be articulate and to have charisma. The fact he gets up people's nose is perhaps because he is fighting a cause to effect change that most of us dont really want to hear about - me included most of the time (even though I did start this thread!)to be honest - I just want to watch and talk about footy and not being racist myself , presume that talent will prevail and it is all best left unsaid. It feels sort of uncool and sour grapes to be harping on about it like a broken record - it makes John Barnes sound uncool to me because he was a fantastic footballer but THAT IS THE POINT - if it doesn't affect you directly you can feel resentment to those who bleat on about it and it is sometimes hard to see it from the other person's perspective. Builders in Grimbsy who harp on about the Eastern Europeans taking their jobs (in UKIP documentaries) get right up my nose -

JohnAngusFan
03-04-2015, 08:58 PM
Some thoughts / observations

- there is a large pool of former players wanting a career in football league management. Potentially 3,300 (between the ages of 35 and 65) and 92 managers so 3,200 potential applicants for each position. And probably only 50 vacancies each year. Terrible odds on any former player getting a job as a manager each year. A big recognisable "name" helps as will a good track record and coaching badges. All the foreign managers in the PL and Championship increase the odds against.

- there is a no role model for a really successful black manager. Paul Ince did well at MK Dons got the move to manage Blackburn in the PL but failed there and at Blackpool.

- any manager that produces winning sides will have few problems getting further jobs.

- the stakes are so high at all levels that few owners/chairmen will gamble on manager that they don't know and have no track record.

- is there a playing position that produces more good managers? Clough and Ferguson were

Bin_Ont_Turf
03-04-2015, 09:56 PM
Burnley will field an all white team (again) on Sunday which is statistically racist considering we have a quick black (what an awful word to describe someone) forward who has scored a few goals in the division below.

I once went for a job that I wasn't qualified for and my CV didn't make for good reading, and when I didn't get the job I had nothing to fall back on for an excuse. Which is infuriating let me tell you.

I tried the 'you don't like my accent' and the 'I've combed my hair especially for this' but it was still the same outcome. - view external link (http://africasacountry.com/why-do-african-countries-hire-white-football-coaches-for-their-national-teams/)

cloughyclaret
03-04-2015, 10:05 PM
On on ITV4 now if anyone wants to see it

footy_le_bordel
03-04-2015, 10:07 PM
it's strange that certain posters are ok with the dearth of black managers.

after all it;s the same kind of structural prejudice that keeps the working man in his place that keeps black chaps out of football.

odd that ppl don't realise this.

gogogadgetlegs
03-04-2015, 10:08 PM
There's far more white managers get sacked cos they're sh1t

dsr
03-04-2015, 11:02 PM
If the skill set between playing and managing is not significantly different, why are there so few ex-England players managing today? Out of 92 managers in the league, just 4 have England caps. (2 of whom are black, incidentally. Or African-American, if that's the current term.)

The next Olympic 100m final will have 8 black men. The next Olympic tennis quarter-final will have 8 white men. Which sport is the raciest?

footy_le_bordel
03-04-2015, 11:18 PM
why do only 6 pc of the population go to public school but occupy 50pc of the top jobs in the country.