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tybfc
23-10-2015, 07:52 AM
Last week Bristol City fans criticised the draconian restrictions placed upon their supporters travelling to Cardiff City away - with the upcoming fixture resembling a "bubble match". Our caseworker Amanda Jacks outlines why the FSF opposes such restrictions...
Next Monday evening, Bristol City are away to Cardiff. Travelling fans are not able to buy a ticket for the match, rather a voucher that they have a 30 minute slot to exchange for a ticket in a service station the night of the match.
This effectively forces people to travel to the game by car unless they are prepared to take a train to Cardiff, a taxi to the service station and then on to the ground. Similar arrangements will be in place for the return fixture next March. This is not against “human rights” since you don’t have a right to attend a football match and by purchasing a voucher you tacitly agree to the restrictions. We’ve previously covered the potential difficulties in legally challenging such arrangements.
A s

clitheroe_claret
23-10-2015, 08:32 AM
Good read
"At the time of the convictions, South Wales Police were quoted as saying that “less than 3% of the travelling (BCFC) fans were intent on causing trouble”."
So the other 97% have to put up with crap, democracy?

Personally not going to match as firstly its on sky and to a lesser degree cost. Suspect they`ll be quite a lot in the same position. If we`ve sold 5,000 this time Im certain we`d sell 8,000 if game wasn`t televised and ticket prices inflated. But then there`s an issue with where to put 100`s of coaches apparently!

bleedingClaret
23-10-2015, 09:07 AM
I like the consistency of the police across the country.

Bristol City Fans must travel in cars, therefore in smaller groups, with at least one sober person of adult age, the driver, with a degree of responsibility for his car, his licence and his passengers, who he would be responsible for, to some extent, both legally when in and around the car and morally if your half decent til home safely, and in a way where a mix of young, old, male and female would be as the norm.

Whereas Burnley fans must not drive themselves, must board a mode of transport that groups a 100 or so together, all can drink if they choose to, and one that seems, to me, to be each passing year more predominately younger and male than the norm, which they accentuated last time by separating families into the Top tier and this time even more so by separating their transport.
The purity of the coaches leaving the Turf to comprise of mainly laddy locals has been assured, by allowing the exiles, those that have m

buxtonclaret
23-10-2015, 09:10 AM
What I've always wondered is, once the game has finished, what's to stop you just going your own way and doing your own thing.
Surely once they let out the away fans, any of the '3%' could slip off and indulge in their pre organised havoc?

bleedingClaret
23-10-2015, 09:11 AM
"But then there`s an issue with where to put 100`s of coaches apparently!"

Never mind Double Decker it's about time they made these buses to stack...

UTC

Leisure
23-10-2015, 09:25 AM
Buxton - You can't just go your own way after the game as you can't get out of the coach park unless you're on a bus.

buxtonclaret
23-10-2015, 09:36 AM
Ah right.
Cheers, Leisure.
Didn't know that, as I've not been able to get to Bollywood for ages.

the_quoon
23-10-2015, 09:58 AM
there won't be any trouble and its sold out again meaning enough people are happy to go along with it (and even pay for the privilege!), so don't expect things to change anytime soon.

domclaret
23-10-2015, 10:06 AM
Things have changed quoon, so many changes to last time you can't actually list them all.

bleedingClaret
23-10-2015, 10:13 AM
"Things have changed quoon, so many changes to last time you can't actually list them all."

Yep but one worth noting is that Lancashire Constabulary are putting a lucky bag on every coach (bus) seat with a Haffners Pie, a can of Shandy Bass and a finger of fudge in a special edition flesh coloured wrapper so that we can pretend for the sake of the Blackburners that we really do have six digits.

UTC

bleedingClaret
23-10-2015, 10:16 AM
"Buxton - You can't just go your own way after the game as you can't get out of the coach park unless you're on a bus."

Although Accy clarets will be setting their bus on fire, as a diversion for anyone wishing to escape.

I can confirm the real live dress rehearsal for this went well..

UTC

Iamaclaret
23-10-2015, 10:19 AM
5 'Derby' games this weekend:

Blackburn v Burnley
Man Utd v Man City
Sunderland V Newcastle
West Ham v Chelsea
Rochdale v Oldham

...and I think we are the only ones having to put up with the "bubble match" approach.

Money talks, let's see the approach after the impending budget cut for Lancs Police.

JohnMcGreal
23-10-2015, 10:23 AM
the_quoon is right. As long people keep paying and turning up in numbers, this situation will not change.

It's interesting to note that fan groups of Roma and Lazio (not a tame rivalry, by any stretch) are preparing to unite and boycott their derby next month due to draconian measures by the authorities.

Are there enough fans on either side willing to take matters into their own hands? It would appear not... - view external link (http://gazzettaworld.gazzetta.it/news/serie-a/roma-lazio-fans-protest/)

The Bedlington Terrier
23-10-2015, 10:29 AM
We are drifting towards a Police state. Here's the evidence.

down_rover
23-10-2015, 10:38 AM
Much as I would like to go to Ewood I refuse to be treated in such a manner. I have been following Burnley for 50 years, having been a season ticket holder for a majority of that time, and have been to hundreds of away games.

I have never been in any sort of trouble over all that time and refuse to be treated like a potential criminal. In addition it is highly inconvenient. I live in Manchester and would have to travel to burnley just to catch a bus.

furthermore my recollection of the last derby at Turf Moor prior to these draconian measures was clouded by a threatening atmosphere. Not created by the Blackburn or Burnley fans but by the overbearing, over oppressive and authoritarian behaviour of the police

aggi
23-10-2015, 10:54 AM
Other clubs, Sunderland, Newcastle, Hull, etc, released public statements condemning the police measures. Noticeably these are no longer bubble matches.

BFC on the other hand have been conspicuously silent on the matter (they even ignored the email that I sent asking them what their position was). It's a shame that the club doesn't seem to want to support the fans in getting these draconian measures lifted.

DiBranchio
23-10-2015, 11:05 AM
Dave Baldwin seems to be 'listening' to the supporters with regards to the cricket field stand, I wonder if he's listening to us now.
It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this ridiculous situation.

nil_desperandum
23-10-2015, 11:16 AM
Just to mention what has been flagged up before.
I don't know of any ordinary police who are getting any extra pay for policing this match. If not already scheduled to work on a match day, they inconveniently have to work on what was scheduled to be a rest day, thus disrupting their weekend, and have to take the day at some other time, but not necessarily on a day that they would prefer. e.g. They are unlikely to be able to get a weekend or Bank Holiday in exchange.

DiBranchio
23-10-2015, 11:28 AM
The inconvenience.

nil_desperandum
23-10-2015, 11:39 AM
"The inconvenience"
More than inconvenient actually. Let's say an officer has potentially 3 full weekends off between now and Christmas, and is scheduled to work on at least one of Saturday or Sunday, (or both), on the others. If he then loses 2 rest days for football matches, then he only has one weekend off between now and Christmas. Not great if you have a wife and young children really is it?
How many other jobs can you be made to work - compulsorily - on a rest day , at fairly short notice, even if you have (e.g). a planned family wedding that weekend.

down_rover
23-10-2015, 11:50 AM
Those of us that are self employed work when our customers ask us to. Weekends, evenings or bank holidays. These days this is the norm.

I accept nobody forces me to work those days or to be self employed. Equally nobody is forced to be a policeman

clitheroe_claret
23-10-2015, 12:02 PM
Could add Rotherham v Wednesday tonight to list of derbies, they`re adjoining each other

M4CCA
23-10-2015, 12:45 PM
""The inconvenience"
More than inconvenient actually. Let's say an officer has potentially 3 full weekends off between now and Christmas, and is scheduled to work on at least one of Saturday or Sunday, (or both), on the others. If he then loses 2 rest days for football matches, then he only has one weekend off between now and Christmas. Not great if you have a wife and young children really is it?
How many other jobs can you be made to work - compulsorily - on a rest day , at fairly short notice, even if you have (e.g). a planned family wedding that weekend."

Nobody.... NOBODY can be forced to work.
What the police ( if your statement is correct ) need to do is stand up to Mr Lancashire police and maybe strike themselves? Nope because there will most definitely be something in it for them somewhere along the line.

I am sure there will be some High up police officer on our screens and radios soon saying the cuts will mean the police cant do there jobs properly, IMO you lot al

Bobcloth2
23-10-2015, 12:51 PM
As aggi points out it is disappointing that the club do not speak out about this farce as other clubs have done.
They will be the only ones who can do anything about it.

Felix3280
23-10-2015, 12:57 PM
Police can't strike

M4CCA
23-10-2015, 01:00 PM
"Police can't strike"

No such thing as cant!
All officers on duty don't turn up to work one day.
There you have a Strike.

Felix3280
23-10-2015, 01:02 PM
Yes ok. That'll work.

Iamaclaret
23-10-2015, 01:11 PM
"Police can't strike".... legally (Police Act 1996)

"Industrial action police officers can legally take include a work-to-rule, which could severely hit the service, and they can also withdraw from voluntary posts, such as policing football matches."

M4CCA
23-10-2015, 01:16 PM
"Yes ok. That'll work."
Absolutely, miles better than going along with something you don't want to do, then moaning like a bitch when you have to do it ( not referring to you personally )

Stand up for what you thinks right or believe in.

Felix3280
23-10-2015, 01:41 PM
Unfortunately policing this fixture, and a couple of others is not voluntary. As mentioned by another, rest days have been cancelled.
I will no doubt be stood freezing my tits off enviously watching the convoy of coaches pass me on the way to ewood.
I would sooner be soaking up the electric atmosphere.
In fact, I would have been turning out for my Saturday team after the match, but that too is a no go.

I've been in trouble for posting my own thoughts on the policing of this fixture so I'd better pipe down

the_quoon
23-10-2015, 01:58 PM
i'd have thought the police being unable to police the match due to strike action would result in the game being called off.

DiBranchio
23-10-2015, 02:02 PM
That could mean the clubs losing money quoon. I wonder what action they (the clubs) would take then?

nil_desperandum
23-10-2015, 03:35 PM
""What the police ( if your statement is correct ) need to do is stand up to Mr Lancashire police and maybe strike themselves? Nope because there will most definitely be something in it for them somewhere along the line."

1. Striking by police has been illegal since 1919, and this was re-enforced in the 1996 Police Act.
2. I know it is a source of great irritation to the majority of police officers that they get constant criticism for the way the Lancashire derby is policed, even though they have no say in the matter, they lose their rest days, and are unable to comment publicly without risk of disciplinary.
3. As has been pointed out in post 30, being on duty for this match is not in the category of "voluntary".
4. Can you put forward any suggestion at all as to what might be "in it for them"? As an officer you are told that you have to work on a weekend when you may have already committed to something else.You are not paid, and you then have to try to find another day, (when it

M4CCA
23-10-2015, 04:58 PM
1. Well they knew this when they signed up.
2. I am sure you cant get disciplined for having an opinion... surely?
3. Cant work if you are constantly vomiting and $hitting every 5 minutes.
4. Hefty pay packet?
Pension?
Sat in a nice warm car watching cars go past at Prestige/Gannow roundabout?
Getting away with a lot more than your regular guy in the street.
Getting to say " I am a police officer you know" or words to that effect.
Some would say not doing your job very well, but still getting paid for it.
Getting to work for CB


"5. Yes self-employed people often work weekends, but it's their own choice and they usually get paid for it."

Ah yes because when you sign up to the police force its not your choice...
Also if they then do get another day off to compensate working then what's all the fuss about?

nil_desperandum
23-10-2015, 05:31 PM
M4CCA. I'm not going to continue debating this point, since your view of the police, who by and large do a difficult job well, is clearly far too distorted to allow reasoned argument.
However, your point 2. shows just how out of touch you are. In many professions you are strictly limited in what opinions you might express publicly.You can't just go on social media and criticise the company or your employers without expecting disciplinary action. in some cases they can take your pension off you.

M4CCA
23-10-2015, 05:44 PM
I have seen some good policing and some police officers do a good job and I praise them when praise is due but many times in many different scenarios I have seen police officers not doing a good job or not doing the job they are paid to do correctly.

Maybe the police officers and their superiors should start working on peoples perceptions of the police force as they obviously reasons why many people get frustrated with them and the job they do and how they do it.

"However, your point 2. shows just how out of touch you are. In many professions you are strictly limited in what opinions you might express publicly."

If you read my point 2, I said you surly can't get disciplined for having an opinion. Which I don't think you can. There is a difference between having an opinion and criticising your boss/company etc .

nil_desperandum
23-10-2015, 06:10 PM
"If you read my point 2, I said you surly can't get disciplined for having an opinion. Which I don't think you can. There is a difference between having an opinion and criticising your boss/company etc"
All depends what opinion you express surely?
e.g. In education you couldn't just put on social media that in your own opinion the school is badly run. As a general rule - it's a risky business expressing an opinion that could be regarded as negative about your employer or company, and in certain professions expressing any opinion could be actionable.

M4CCA
23-10-2015, 06:32 PM
Having an opinion doesn't mean it is on social media for the whole world to see.
I know several professionals who have an opinion of their boss/company/organisation and I think you have to be naďve to think that all employees like who they work for.

But as you stated previously my opinion of the police force wont change until I see them dealing with things correctly and in an appropriate manner, but sadly Lancs police rarely live up to expectations.
( I have seen positive things done by other police forces that I don't think ours would ever consider )

Felix3280
23-10-2015, 06:50 PM
M4cca-
Yes you can get disciplined, and I was.

nil_desperandum
23-10-2015, 07:02 PM
"Having an opinion doesn't mean it is on social media for the whole world to see"
Why have you moved the goalposts? We obviously aren't talking about private conversations though in some cases this can lead to disciplinary. (If, for example, it was a child protection issue or racist).
In my post 33 - which you challenged, I wrote: "and are unable to comment publicly without risk of disciplinary."

M4CCA
24-10-2015, 08:05 AM
Felix3280 - Sorry to hear that, must be a nightmare.

nil - if I remember correctly I never mentioned saying anything publicly, I said surly you cannot get disciplined for having an opinion, and as far as I aware you cant.
( why would you need to comment publicly or on social media )
I was answering the fact you say officers get frustrated with the way the derby is policed but cant do anything about it.
Now to have an opinion and speak to your boss/superiors as to why you think it is unfair on fans/police officers and many others is not going out publically and criticising people, it is letting you feelings known on the subject.
Your post seems to come across like police have no voice and are made to do things with no say on the matter without disciplinary action.

I think we may have to agree to disagree, because If I was in a job that possibly 2/3 times a year I was forced to do something I didn't want to do and cancel a wedding, christening, funeral, birthday etc etc then I

nil_desperandum
24-10-2015, 08:30 AM
Ok. I'll simplify.
The point of my initial post was to point out that contrary to some misconceptions, the ordinary police officer is no more in favour of the draconian policing of this fixture than the average supporter. The decision is taken at senior level but the ordinary officer gets no benefit from it whatsoever, and indeed they are more inconvenienced by the decision than the supporter since supporters have the choice of whether to attend the match or not, whereas their rest day or holiday is cancelled and they have to work.
As an observation, I also pointed out that whilst we are free to complain on social media etc about the situation, they aren't. This was what provoked you to say that you can't be disciplined for "having" an opinion.
With respect, that isn't what I said. I wrote "unable to comment publicly". "Having" an opinion and being able to express it "publicly" are two entirely different matters, even in a "democracy" like ours.

M4CCA
24-10-2015, 10:29 AM
Thank you.
I have taken some things on board.

IanMcL
24-10-2015, 06:08 PM
It's catching, this bubble lark....according to Scotty Arfield

“I genuinely didn’t know what I was doing though. I was in a bubble and was running hand-in-hand with Michael Duff for about three seconds. It’s bizarre!”