View Full Version : Perspective required

01-11-2015, 08:36 AM
I think some on here need to give their heads a wobble.

We are winning games and people still moan. Statistically we have a 1 in 4 chance of going straight back up and we are in 3rd on goal difference and we are still not quite at the level we know we can play at.

Sean Dyche, the board, the players and staff are getting it right at the moment clearly.

Anyone who wants to nit pick about it, I would just ask, would you rather be in this position or would you rather be in a position like wigan or bolton or any of the other old premier league clubs who have really fallen from grace.

I vividly remember the last time we were relegated and I must admit the 'negativity' that time was far higher than it is now but I suspect that some on here are just as SD said himself - you give them a fiver and they ask why it wasnt a tenner.

Not asking anyone to be jolly all of the time but come one - we are winning games - just enjoy it. The team can do no more. - [url=http://www.tele

01-11-2015, 09:03 AM
That's just it, I think that this team can do more. That's not negative and nor is it critical of how well we are doing.

01-11-2015, 09:12 AM
I think around two thirds of our games have been against sides in the bottom half of the championship. Once we start playing more top 10 teams we will be exposed.

01-11-2015, 09:12 AM
how can they get more than 3 points and beat the team we are playing?

01-11-2015, 09:21 AM
Yesterday was a good example of us not finishing teams off. Three points has to be the aim, of course, but should we really have been hanging on at the end?

We could and should have been out of sight, not holding out.

01-11-2015, 10:09 AM
Pidgeon we have played the following teams to date all in the top half
Sheffield Wednesday
We have won 2
Drawn 2
Lost 1
None of these teams are more than 8 points behind us

01-11-2015, 10:11 AM
Should have added we are above them all :D

01-11-2015, 10:24 AM
Missed the game again unfortunately yesterday, every 3 points is great.

Even in our promotion season I remember Burnley hanging on unnecessarily at the end, I thought it was part of our DNA.

For some the question they cannot answer themselves is, Why are we not knocking over the bottom half teams?

The same people seem to assume that we will not be able to beat top half sides. That seems to be based on defeats to Reading and Ipswich who we played at the top of their form and with our own team not fully developed.

Nobody can provide answers to doubters but maybe if they try and find some encouragement from what Dyche says week in , week out.

This team finds different ways to win or save points in different games and play the same way whether in front or behind.

I suppose that is part of his definition of ' framework'.

Fulham is a big test on Tuesday. Not because they are a top team but because the match comes when they are in top form similar to when we played Ipsw

01-11-2015, 10:31 AM
Are people still complaining? Genuine question - not been on many threads since the game. Some people will always find something to complain about.

"Bloody hell, we're winning again. Sick of this."

01-11-2015, 11:07 AM
If we had won 3-0 having been up 2-0 at half time there would have been moaners saying we should have won 4-0.

The team is averaging 2 pts a game and the focus seems to be on a breakaway goal or a period of play that wasn't particularly great, yet not detrimental to the 3 pts being gained.

Teams are not always going to give us the freedom to play beautiful football and they certainly are not coming into games to get rolled over and the reason I enjoy this league is because of it's competitiveness.

I think it's kind of arrogant that some fans feel that we should be doing better than we are when you look at all the facts in front of you and you can only conclude we are doing well this season.

01-11-2015, 11:35 AM
We're doing incredibly well considering our rather slow start.

01-11-2015, 11:36 AM
Its not comparable to clubs like Bolton or Wigan because unlike them, we sacrificed spending in the premier league so we could give it a damn good go if we were relegated, in other words we chose the safe option.

Were doing well for sure, but we should be aiming for automatic promotion and playing like we have been in some games its natural for people to have concern. We don't make it easy on ourselves and we didn't last time we were promoted either, but this time with money from the premier league being spent and premier league quality players in our squad, its not unrealistic to want to us to wrap up games against poor opposition.

Were getting better though and injuries so far haven't helped us. Once the players clock in more hours with each other the better we will get.

The problem seems to be a lot of the favourites around us had the luxury of being able to gel their teams from the start of the season, so catching up to that point hopefully won't penalise us.

01-11-2015, 11:58 AM
This is a totally different situation to the promotion season.

The main issue with relegation is expectation.

Expectation breeds pressure and pressure is a demon most struggle to cope with.

You can only win 3 points whether you play brilliantly or indifferently.

SD has learned a lot from the Premier League, we are extremely solid and difficult to beat.

It is far from easy, but we are on course.

Get behind the lads !

On another point well done to the fans in the CFS yesterday. Brilliant support.

The shocked faces from away fans when we out sing them, when they have had it so easy for nigh on twenty years is worth the entrance fee alone.

The Bedlington Terrier
02-11-2015, 06:28 AM
SD is doing the promotion dance yet again, just in a different way!

02-11-2015, 06:36 AM
It's comments like 'once we play more top ten teams we will be exposed' I find strange.

Given the fact we have rarely been 'exposed' by supposed 'top teams' even in the premier league last year.

02-11-2015, 06:59 AM
"how can they get more than 3 points and beat the team we are playing?"
Well - we have the same number of points as Hull, but they are above us, why? It might not just be points that count at the end of the season.

02-11-2015, 07:02 AM
There is also a number of regular posters on here that like to moan about perceived moaning whenever they get the chance.

Not sure that there has been any moaning since Saturday, however, a significant number of posters have questioned the second half tactics on Saturday which led to an uncomfortable few minutes in the end, when we should won at a canter.

02-11-2015, 07:58 AM
Some people make too much about playing 'the top teams'. It's the championship. The difference between the best and worst sides in the league is nothing like the Prem.

We've recently grafted to three points against dross like Rotherham, Blackburn, Bolton and Hudderfield but you can be certain they'll all take points off our promotion challengers throughout the season.

Remember when we went up last time, all the talk was how we hadn't played anyone good at this stage? Up until we played QPR at home and absolutely walloped them with our best performance of the season.

02-11-2015, 08:11 AM
"Anyone who wants to nit pick about it, I would just ask, would you rather be in this position or would you rather be in a position like wigan or bolton or any of the other old premier league clubs who have really fallen from grace."

One of the most ludicrous straw-man arguments to have ever been advanced on this messageboard, and that's something.

That simply isn't the choice.

We're doing well and any sensible fan would be perfectly happy with how we've adjusted to life back in the Championship - it can be a tough transition.

But we can be better, and we should be better.

The moaning, such as it is, about Saturday isn't borne of unrealistic expectations. Its borne of the fact that we showed ourselves during the first hour to be vastly, vastly superior to Huddersfield in every single respect. And the fact that having demonstrated our superiority, we got complacent, took our foot off the gas and gave ourselves an entirely unnecessary and self-inflicted problem.

Your a

02-11-2015, 08:18 AM
"hanging on for dear life" is a bit melodramatic isn't it?

at 2-1 i'd always back us to see the game out, even if there were more than 6 minutes left when we'd scored for them.

i'd say the same against the perceived 'top teams' as well.

02-11-2015, 08:23 AM
We were hanging on Quoon. The reaction of Heaton when Huddersfield fluffed their big chance to equalise at the far post told you that the players realised they were having to scrap a hell of a lot harder than they should have done. You say you'd back us to see it out, and I can understand why, but we gave up the chance of an equaliser and were at their mercy to miss it, as they duly did.

02-11-2015, 08:43 AM
if you say so, Spice.

if we'd been under huge pressure, facing wave after wave of attack, making last ditch blocks and saves, i'd say we were hanging on.

as it was, huddersfield had one half chance that they missed to go with their only other clear chance in the entire 90 minutes (which wells also made a mess of).

sure, it was less comfortable that everyone wanted it to be - i'd always rather we just go on and blitz teams once we've got the lead but after 3 years of dyche being here, i've realised that's a rarity.

02-11-2015, 08:51 AM
If you don't think we were under pressure in injury time Quoon, fair enough, but you were watching a different game to me. Huddersfield had us scrambling at the back three or four times in injury time and the reactions of the players were telling.

And I'd not describe that as a half chance either, it was a good one.

As for this idea that we just don't put teams to the sword under Dyche, by this time 2 years ago we'd beaten Derby, Birmingham and Charlton by 3 goals and 3 other games by 2 goals. We didn't just grind out results. We may not have blitzed teams and no-ones demanding that now, we're just demanding that as we did 2 years ago the team go on being "relentless" till the end and win games by the margins that reflect our superiority.

02-11-2015, 08:58 AM
30 seconds earlier we hit the crossbar - if that had gone in it would have been 3-0 - I thought we were comfortable and kept calm after their lucky goal. UTC

02-11-2015, 09:02 AM
The fact we hit the crossbar on one of the few occasions we attacked with purpose in the second half is indicative that if we'd really kept our levels up, kept doing what we normally do, we'd have scored more goals. The point is that we were comfortable, we got too comfortable, allowed our levels to drop and became casual, kicking the ball around between us in our own half rather than doing the basics well and with purpose like we did in the first hour.

Even before we hit the crossbar, we'd gifted Patterson an outrageous amount of time and space to look up, pick and execute a chipped pass over the top for Wells. That sort of time and space doesn't exist between our lines when we're playing in the manner we usually do. That was one of a couple of let-offs which ought to have served as a warning; fact is we didn't heed them.

02-11-2015, 09:08 AM
07 I think you are right about Perspective--the question is "who's perspective are we supposed to follow?".

Yours is one of we are doing alright so why the whinge.

Mine is a recognition that if we get promoted with this current squad we are straight back down.

And I say this because the bulk of the squad is the same that got relegated just last year.

The brutal fact is that you need to be beating teams in the Championship with a bit to spare--not working your socks off to get a 2-1 result.

Play the same way against the top ten teams in the Prem and you will get beat. Its proven; its not a guess or an assumption.

I and others do not want us to yoyo between the two divisions.

We want to hold our own in the Prem and stay there.

What we have at the moment is full on endeavor--top marks to all--but it just isn't good enough for the Prem.

We are not taking the lesser lights in this division to the cleaners when we play them.

There are very few lesser lights in

02-11-2015, 09:15 AM
"The brutal fact is that you need to be beating teams in the Championship with a bit to spare--not working your socks off to get a 2-1 result."

the brutal fact is that we're doing the former rather than the latter.

we've got another game tomorrow night. whilst it would have been nice to chalk up a bigger score on saturday, its understandable that our levels dropped a bit and we did what we needed to do to see the game out.

02-11-2015, 12:02 PM
Completely agree with you Quoon.

I just don't get how anyone can complain at getting 3 points. If we are to deal in what could have happened rather than did happen, you are opening yourself up to a lot of variables. They should have been down to 10 men perhaps, they may not have had the ability to break as they did etc.. There is absolutely no point in discussion what if's.

I will accept that come the end of the season if the league table is similar to where we are today in that we have missed automatic promotion on goal difference, then of course we will reflect back at games where we felt we should have done more but we are not at the end of the season and it's nowhere near that point where you can start seriously thinking about what will be next April/May.

If you insist on talking about what if's - how about this... 10pm tomorrow and we see that Burnley, Derby and Boro have all won - Hull and Brighton have both lost - how does the table look then. A team that was 5

02-11-2015, 12:21 PM
I think everybody can see we still have more to give.

We really shouldn't complain though. If we play to the 'almost' standard we have been all season and get promoted I'll be over the moon. Yes, we look like we should be doing better, we don't appear to be playing brilliantly well. But we are winning.
Think back to the Premier League, how many times did we play much better than the other team, and they just win (games like Man United away last season). This season we are the the ones taking our chances and taking the points and that's fine by me. Be nice to walk over teams, but it's nice just beating them too.

02-11-2015, 12:25 PM
Claretspice, against Derby away they had a penalty to make it 2-1 which would have made it a tighter game. Richard Dunne for QPR blazed over from about 3 yards when it was easier to score when we were leading 1-0 so it goes to show we were never anymore convincing two years ago in many of the games. Even against Forest, after leading 3-0 at home, they pulled a goal back and could easily have got a 2nd to make it a nervy finish. We really took our foot off the gas in that game. No different to as it is now.

02-11-2015, 12:42 PM
"we've got another game tomorrow night. whilst it would have been nice to chalk up a bigger score on saturday,"

if the implication is that the players were saving themselves, then that's surely where using the subs on the bench comes in - that's something we've got now that we didn't have two years ago.

I'm not sure I follow Spijed's point about 2 years ago - winning 3-0 at Derby was by any measure a hell of a statement in a really good performance, and the wins against Birmingham and Charlton in particular were easy put aways done with aplomb. No-one is saying we should win every game by a margin, or even most games by a margin (Spijed cites Derby, Forest and QPR, which were all pivotal games against direct rivals at the time, so certainly not games we'd expect to win by a margin), just that when we set ourselves up to do so and are clearly superior to opponents we've all but got beaten, we should do it. We did 2 years ago in the games used as examples and we're more than capab

02-11-2015, 12:54 PM
i'm not implying anyone was saving themselves and thats not something i'd expect of a dyche team.

if he was bothered about saving players for the next game, he'd have made subs but we're fit enough to cope with that.

what i'm saying that its understandable that the levels dropped a bit because we were comfortable, we've another game on tuesday so there wasn't a need to go all out to rack up a big score (as much as i'd prefer to see us do that).

had wells not missed his big chance i think we'd have seen changes in both personal and attitude but there wasn't huge need for it. don't forget that their goal came from a break seconds after we'd hit the bar to 3-0 up, in which case this conversation wouldn't be happening, but its pointless dealing in ifs and buts.

point is, when we do have to keep the pressure on and get ourselves a bigger lead, i think we will.

02-11-2015, 12:57 PM
We're not firing on all cylinders yet and I think most fans know that.

Sometimes it is a good thing to get a scare near the end to keep the players on their toes.

One complete performance needed to get the buzz going properly.

Hopefully tomorrow against an in form Fulham

02-11-2015, 01:01 PM
We weren't comfortable though Quoon, we were 2-0 up and in that situation every pro knows you are vulnerable if you allow the opposition the next goal. That's exactly the point. If we'd kept our foot to the floor, or reacted when energy levels dropped off a bit, Wells wouldn't have got that glorious chance - the space Patterson was given was entirely a consequence of our lull. So we should have shaken ourselves before then to make sure we didn't risk throwing it away.

02-11-2015, 01:25 PM
I wonder if we would be having this discussion had Michael Duff's attempted clearance gone wide of goal?
Apart from the Wells chance, I'm struggling to think of any other openings created by Huddersfield. Sure they had a lot of the ball, but that's nothing new given that we regularly concede possession in most games.

02-11-2015, 01:49 PM
At no point on Saturday did I think we were "hanging on".
The quoon has it spot on here.

02-11-2015, 02:10 PM
They had a very good chance to equalise which the lad Bunn spooned over the bar.

02-11-2015, 02:10 PM
spice - i said myself on the ratings thread that everyone knows 2-0 is the most dangerous scoreline. we didn't "allow" the opposition the next goal though, they got a fortunate consolation with a few minutes to go. we might well have had a lull but thats championship football for you, its hard to keep firing on all cylinders for 90 mins (just read ronald koeman saying its 'impossible, funnily enough) and you have to remember there is an opposition on the field as well.

huddersfield made some changes which i thought improved them, but not so much that i was worried.

02-11-2015, 02:22 PM
Quoon - I've consistently argued throughout this thread that you have to distinguish between days when the opposition change something, get a break, whatever, and momentum changes against you (the days when you have to hang in there) and days when you drop your levels dramatically and that allows the opposition back in. One is understandable, one isn't. Saturday went in the latter camp for me - we started passing the ball square, playing keep ball, encouraging "Oles" from the crowd before the 70 minute mark at one point, stopped closing down Pattterson, started letting their full backs out and generally started being careless. As I say, I can't imagine for a second Dyche watched that with satisfaction.

As for the idea you should fire on all cylinders for 90 minutes, no-one's saying you should, the first hour was good but it isn't like Huddersfield didn't have some moments (like 10 minutes just before the second goal). All I'm asking is that the players don't get sloppy and complace

02-11-2015, 03:15 PM
i have, thanks. i get what you're saying, i'm arguing against it.

nobody is saying you have to fire on all cylinders for 90 mins, including me; i'm just saying there's a bit more to it and putting a football match beyond the reach of the opposition is often harder than you think.

we didn't allow them back in. they got a lucky break when we hit the bar and another lucky break 30 seconds later when we did what they couldn't do and put the ball in our net for them a few minutes from time.

i'd have preferred us to keep the first hour's display going and trounced huddersfield but i'm not that arsed that we didn't because we didn't need to.

02-11-2015, 04:22 PM
Sometimes you've got to realise there's another team playing too. Huddersfield and anyone else aren't there to let us wrap up a game handsomely. It only takes one season in the Prem for us to get that arrogance back.

Paterson was the most creative player on the pitch. The lad who came on late and played on the wing caused us problems. Overall though we made plenty of chances, missed a few and then they made a couple and scored one.

You can't play out 90 minutes without letting the opposition create anything.

02-11-2015, 04:59 PM
"You can't play out 90 minutes without letting the opposition create anything."

Which is why, if you read the thread, no-one has suggested you can.

02-11-2015, 05:16 PM
I don't understand why Freddie was not on the bench. Fresh legs in centre midfield were needed in the last 10/15 minutes. It's weird not to have a specialist on the bench when we play 442.

We had (again), two full backs, a wing back, a winger and 2 strikers. Not a CM or CB to be seen. Very odd imo.

I think Sean could improve us by using subs more and had he I believe we would have won 2-0 at least last game.