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View Full Version : No entry to under-21 cup tie v Blackburn



ClaretTony
02-11-2015, 10:07 AM
Decision made on u-21 tie - see link - view external link (www.clarets-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/no_entry_to_under21_cup_tie_v_blackburn_873830/index.shtml)

goobs
02-11-2015, 10:08 AM
Sadly predictable.

lotty1
02-11-2015, 10:14 AM
Police demands yet again !

claretspice
02-11-2015, 10:16 AM
You can read the clubs's statement as follows: "we'd have liked to allow supporters into the game, but we've been held to ransom by Lancashire Police so have had absolutely no option but to give into their bullying and threats".

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 10:17 AM
To be honest I don't think the club had any alternative and I find that very sad indeed. The problems at the youth games haven't helped and we know this game would have attracted people who would have had no interest had it been against any other team in the country.

I'm disappointed because these are games I enjoy going to, but I do understand that this decision was the only one the club could make given the circumstances.

I've now added the police quotes to the article.

silkyskills1
02-11-2015, 10:17 AM
A very sad indictment of an unenviable situation that exists between two football clubs. What measures would be taken for a possible play-off final at Wembley?

lotty1
02-11-2015, 10:21 AM
It would seem that Lancashire Police are making demands to cover their own incompetence . Staggering .

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 10:26 AM
"It would seem that Lancashire Police are making demands to cover their own incompetence . Staggering ."


Don't agree with that, they've outlined the costs involved in terms of their requirement to police the game. There were between 400 and 500 in the Wigan game, less against Barnsley. How many do you think would have attended this one? It would have required considerable policing.

butterflyvenom
02-11-2015, 10:27 AM
or it might be that pea brained thugs have ensured the two sets of fans are't fit to mingle anytime soon.

lotty1
02-11-2015, 10:30 AM
Sorry but that's how I see it - I could be wrong or I could be right , who knows . No idea how many would attend but feel it's yet another demand which could be avoided with more understanding of the situation by the police .
Where will it all end ?

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 10:31 AM
I agree with Lotty. Police preferring to block this one to maintain the imbargo on the league matches. They are incompetant when you consider the derby matches (full league status) around the country, and they can not even 'oversee' a youth match for f sake. Ridiculous and the club should make a case of this for the fans.

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 10:33 AM
I think you are totally wrong lotty1 - a million miles wrong. How do you feel it can be avoided? What would the liability for the two clubs if there was to be serious disorder and there wasn't the necessary police presence?


See the post from butterflydemon (post #9) - that's the problem.

lotty1
02-11-2015, 10:34 AM
I would guess that the club have been put in a situation where they have no choice . I wonder if the two Manchester or Liverpool clubs would have the same problem were they drawn together in the same competition ? Yes I know they're different forces .

lotty1
02-11-2015, 10:34 AM
That's fine CT .

Yes post 9 may well be the problem , I accept that but is there no police intelligence as to who these idiots are ?
Maybe I'm asking too much of the police intelligence wise .

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 10:35 AM
If the two Manchester clubs were drawn the police costs would be even higher than we would have to pay. They just happen to be massive clubs who can absorb the costs.

lotty1
02-11-2015, 10:37 AM
My point is/was that it probably wouldn't happen with the Manchester/Liverpool clubs but again I could be wrong .

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 10:38 AM
What was the issue with Leeds several years ago who won a ruling on policing. Irrespective of this we played them (youth) at Burnley a couple of years ago. Apart from their jibes about our mums preferring a sleep, what was the problem that night?

the_quoon
02-11-2015, 10:50 AM
"they can not even 'oversee' a youth match for f sake."

they can oversee it, they haven't said they can't.

it would just cost a lot to do so.

greater manchester police did the same for our developments squad's pre-season friendly at stockport.

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 10:56 AM
The issue isn't about them saying they can't. Its them saying it will take x amount of police officers, That is their submission and the total = they can't.

Im fully aware of the stockport game and the discussion that went on around it. That was generally perceived as police=pleb.

Bobcloth2
02-11-2015, 10:56 AM
Maybe they will start doing the same for first team games in the future if they decide it costs too much.

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 10:59 AM
It's not a youth game either on this occasion.

the_quoon is right, they forced Stockport into having no alternative but to call off a friendly against our dev squad on a night when our first team were playing at Fleetwood.

The police have clearly made decisions based on the FA Youth Cup games of 2012 and other games between the two clubs and given that information to our club. Burnley FC, in conjunction with Blackburn Rovers FC & the Premier League have come to this decision based on that.

I'm angry at not being able to go to the game. These are games I enjoy going to. But this decision has had to be made because of the costs required due to the potential for disorder.

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 11:03 AM
Was this case involving Leeds overturned?

- view external link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-21699007)

minniemouth
02-11-2015, 11:04 AM
I hope the club will now show the match live on player.

Bin_Ont_Turf
02-11-2015, 11:14 AM
'Apart from their jibes about our mums preferring a sleep, what was the problem that night?'


Well legend has it that the game at Blackburn was followed by a battle that made the one in Spartacus look like
minor skirmish. Horses were even used by one side but in an improper manner.

The police had to arrest 1,274 people.

So let's not pretend that the police wouldn't have to have 100's of officers there because we all know that Blackburn may have brought as many as 200.

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 11:15 AM
No connection between this and the Leeds situation which was for WY Police charging for officers that were not inside the footprint of the ground. Whelan had a similar claim against GM Police at Wigan.

"I hope the club will now show the match live on player"

I would suspect they'll have live commentary on the game as they have done in previous rounds.

The Bedlington Terrier
02-11-2015, 11:16 AM
Police and intelligence is a total misnomer. The two simply do not go hand in hand. Enforce a blanket ban on Blackburn fans and let Burnley fans watch their team. The idiots would simply not attend because they would have no -one to vent their bile towards. Easy fix really other than our Board of Directors getting cloned to grow a pair as far as their servile attitude towards Lancashire Constabulary is concerned.

Claretforever
02-11-2015, 11:20 AM
Home fans only. Clarets numbers required. Simple solution...no they've had a good couple of weeks to come up with it.

Or am I totally deluded here in thinking that if it was home fans only the crowd would be lower, and policing costs much less as a result of the crowd numbers and zero away fans?

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 11:20 AM
Might have been for West yorkshire Police but it was by Law Lords who ruled. Tony you cannot continue to defend this on the basis of perceived disruption by individuals. Disorder is caused every weekend by folk in the town cente and potentially every other place that sells alcohol. The police deal with that.

Toby1
02-11-2015, 11:25 AM
To help everyone to better understand, perhaps the club/police would like to make the negotiation process public giving all the financial figures and police demands.

sheffieldturfite
02-11-2015, 11:28 AM
I have read and attempted to digest the logic behind this decision, but am struggling.

I see that "several" arrests at a youth game have resulted in a blanket ban on supporters for a high profile game. There is a sense that they feel all fans won't be fussed at not going on this game but we all know some fans love the youth games and this is a decent profile cup.

Why not only open the BLS with sales strictly limited to season ticket holders, and Rovers only getting one coach load to sit in a little corner of the CFS with one snack bar open? It may just be me but I don't see significant potential for trouble nor the need for huge policing / stewarding. More than usual obviously but not silly numbers.

I get annoyed about money being repeatedly mentioned too, when we will have close to a £30m turnover this year and the police will have an even bigger budget. It isn't financial necessity - it is choice. One I don't agree with. The police and football clubs both need to realise tha

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 11:29 AM
The Leeds situation is nothing to do with this and nothing like it - it was due to police charging for officers outside of the footprint of the ground. Lancashire police have not gone down that road and we don't pay for them. Why you keep referring to that I don't know.

As for this game; our club have received a figure from the Lancashire Police on how much their charges will be for this game. We've made our decision based on that figure. I'm not sure what else we could have done to be honest. I suppose the club could have gone off on one like lotty1 did on here without considering any facts, but at the end of the day I don't think our club had any other decision they could make.

We have first team games between the two clubs when supporters have to be bused in. When we had 10,000 crowds for youth games there was enough disorder to put us back years. I'm angry I can't go on this game because, no matter who it had been against, I want to go, but I fully understand why we've done i

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 11:30 AM
It cant happen because of the cost sheffield. Cost is god

M4CCA
02-11-2015, 11:31 AM
Totally agree with claretforever

You don't let any away supporters in and limit the home attendance to the capacity of the Bob Lord and give them to season ticket holders on a first come first serve basis.

Then you get 2/3000 home fans cheering on the young lads with no chance of trouble and those supporters that regularly go or wish to attend can.
The sale of drinks/pies etc will cover the cost of the dozen or so stewards needed.

What is the point being drawn at home otherwise, I think it will actually benefit rovers more!

People know my thoughts on Lancs police, and this is ANOTHER reason I deem them incompetent to do their jobs.
( Lets not reel out it's not their fault line/days off/ etc etc, if they are not in a warm car/office they are not happy )

Do a week on the pavements of Liverpool and London for a eye opener.

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 11:31 AM
"It may just be me but I don't see significant potential for trouble nor the need for huge policing / stewarding. More than usual obviously but not silly numbers."


Over 21,000 at the two youth cup ties wasn't it? Had we played anyone else you would probably have been able to knock off the last zero.

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 11:33 AM
Why you keep referring to that I don't know.

Tell me where the police are within the 'footprint of the ground' or where they would need to be.

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 11:36 AM
And for those who continue to think it is - THIS IS NOT A YOUTH GAME, IT'S AN UNDER-21 GAME

It is still not a first team game. The number of hooligans does not go up c-team, b-team, a team.

lotty1
02-11-2015, 11:36 AM
Well done Mr Scholes - just for singling me out yet again . You're amazing . I'm sure there's more than I against this but you just carry on with your crusade mate .

As someone pointed out it could have been just a game for home fans . I'm glad I didn't suggest that though or i'd have been in trouble again lol .

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 11:42 AM
tbh Lotty I think you only read posts addressed to you.

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 11:44 AM
"Well done Mr Scholes - just for singling me out yet again . You're amazing . I'm sure there's more than I against this but you just carry on with your crusade mate ."

Don't be ridiculous, I haven't singled you out, I just thought it was you who started posting some of the comments at the top without giving things any thought. I was sure I saw the lotty1 against them. Maybe I was wrong. :D

lotty1
02-11-2015, 11:52 AM
Read every post on this thread gogogadgetlegs and agree with some .

bleedingClaret
02-11-2015, 11:53 AM
Disappointing.... I went on the Wigan & Barnsley games and really enjoyed both

I think the segregation of schools, in the borderlands from Rossendale through Accrington stretching to Clitheroe, is now a must. Can't take the risk.

I don't know how the father & son walking round Colne Asda on Friday in Blackburn shirts survived..

UTC

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 11:53 AM
"Disappointing.... I went on the Wigan & Barnsley games and really enjoyed both"

That's exactly what it is.

Bobcloth2
02-11-2015, 11:56 AM
So is there a reason they have banned home fans and not just away fans?

ClaretTony2014
02-11-2015, 11:57 AM
Not sure how that happened bleedingclaret but I responded to your post (42) and it appeared above as post 41.

Toby1
02-11-2015, 11:58 AM
More questions then answers as usual I suspect.

gogogadgetlegs
02-11-2015, 12:09 PM
Less answers than questions.

GRAPIDIANCLARET
02-11-2015, 12:13 PM
They should play it in the UAE.
That would take care of any crowd issues

M4CCA
02-11-2015, 01:03 PM
**BREAKING NEWS**

The under 16's school cup game between Blessed Trinity and QEGS will have to be played out via a best of 5 rock paper scissors due to the strong chance of parents watching supporting different teams, and to add insult to injury the rock paper scissors will be behind closed doors where the only people there will be both captains, a referee and 2 police officers in full riot gear.

A spokesman from the finest police force in the UK said
" We just cant take the risk nowadays, public safety is our number 1 priority and with around 40 expected for this fixture we decided it's best all round to take it out of the public eye.
We have however decreased the number of officers on duty for the behind closed door rock paper scissors from 12 to 2 so to give the lads involved a chance to behave and maybe next year no officers at all will be needed."

Toby1
02-11-2015, 01:07 PM
Why bother playing it at all then, just toss a coin and that way it saves everyone from doing anything. :)

Bin_Ont_Turf
02-11-2015, 01:10 PM
Oh I don't know Toby1, someone might have their eye taken out with tossing a coin.

Toby1
02-11-2015, 01:32 PM
A very good point BOT, please remove my post immediately XD

parkvilla
02-11-2015, 01:36 PM

Jamb0MackemClaret
02-11-2015, 01:38 PM
First of all it's a shame a few idiots have spoiled it for the vast majority of people who are capable of going to a football match without having a fight.

Police overcharging football clubs is a very real issue and it's understandable that Burnley would not necessarily want to pay what is likely a significant amount of money - regardless of our current relative riches - to stage what is still a fairly small match in the grand scheme of things.

However, it all sounds quite pathetic to me. The changes over the coach travel seemed minimal despite the talks - and now this. Is this progress? It doesn't feel like it.

What's a football club for if supporters aren't allowed to go to games? Very poor state of affairs.

barry_chuckle
02-11-2015, 01:44 PM
Simple solution.....
Don't allow Rovers fans to attend and Clarets ST holders only for the home ends.

Leisure
02-11-2015, 01:50 PM
Barry - That's obviously a far too simple suggestion rather than playing it behind closed doors!!!

aggi
02-11-2015, 01:57 PM
To help everyone to better understand, perhaps the club/police would like to make the negotiation process public giving all the financial figures and police demands.

I made a freedom of information request on this. The response is, unsurprisingly, overdue.

With reference to the previous youth tie, opinion seems split as to whether it went off smoothly or there was loads of trouble meaning that lancashire police have no option but to assume that the only people to go to these matches are 5,000 hooligans. Are there actually any arrest figures for that match? - view external link (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/decision_making_process_blackbur)

randomclaret2
02-11-2015, 02:56 PM
Would it be helpful if the Police were to publish a list of what they ARE actually prepared to do these days ?

lotty1
02-11-2015, 02:56 PM
As a couple of people have already said the sensible option would be to make it home fans only but the police don't seem to do sensible .

lotty1
02-11-2015, 03:07 PM
Was it discussed ? Was the question asked ? Who knows ?

Playing behind closed doors simply means a few idiots have won and genuine fans who never ever cause trouble have lost out which is not acceptable . Home fans only would have meant , again as someone said earlier that the idiots in all probability would have had no reason to attend as they would have had no one to "fight" . Why should genuine fans miss out ?

RMutt
02-11-2015, 06:07 PM
I think this should be an over sixty fives only fixture and everyone can get on with one another like they did in the olden days.

northeastclaret
02-11-2015, 06:22 PM
'I think this should be an over sixty fives only fixture and everyone can get on with one another like they did in the olden days.'

Are you sure ,isn't Rocky over 65?

The Bedlington Terrier
02-11-2015, 06:36 PM
Whatever happened to freedom of choice? We now live in a Police state and quite frankly, I find it scary. This is a game of football for God's sake!

Goody1975
02-11-2015, 06:39 PM
"I think this should be an over sixty fives only fixture and everyone can get on with one another like they did in the olden days."

The only flaw in that argument is when hooliganism was at it's worst in the 1970's the nasty characters who were involved have aged somewhat and many are now over the age of 65, they have a history of violence, drinking to excess and wearing really dodgy clothes.

That on it's own is enough to issue banning orders for this fixture.

RMutt
02-11-2015, 07:37 PM
Rocky's only 38, he's just had a hard life. Take your point about the 70's hooligans, but at least there will be no 'running battles' because there'll be no running. They might throw their flasks at one another.

ecc
02-11-2015, 08:02 PM
It's fine blaming the police but were the last two matches in this Cup played behind closed doors?

And if you think you're living in a police state then I suggest reading Amnesty International's website where you'll get plenty of info about police states.

The Bedlington Terrier
03-11-2015, 11:43 AM
One of Britain’s most senior chief constables has warned about our“drift towards a police state” in which officers are turned into “thought police”, one of Britain’s most senior chief constables has warned.

Sir Peter Fahy, the chief constable of Greater Manchester recently alluded to the loss of freedom and choice of British citizens. The Home Secretary wants carte blanche authority to read your emails and private correspondence and you doubt we are living in a police state? I can't even take my son and his two mates to a frigging football game for God's sake!

Der4
03-11-2015, 12:42 PM
once agatn the police are using.in a different way.to interpret,the legislation.passed during the miners strike.that was aimed,at.miners fravelling to other locations,to a particular pit.how many of us were piissed off.when they boarded.the coach or mini bus.now they want the clubs to pay for there own officers.no one likes us and we dont care.

Iamaclaret
03-11-2015, 12:48 PM
Does anybody actually know why the game cannot be "Home Fans" only?

Has anyone asked the question?

Claretforever
03-11-2015, 01:04 PM
Home fans only. Bob Lord stand open only (3,000 ish?). First come first served with a Clarets number?

Surely they've considered this?

M4CCA
03-11-2015, 02:17 PM
Totally agree with claretforever

You don't let any away supporters in and limit the home attendance to the capacity of the Bob Lord and give them to season ticket holders on a first come first serve basis.

Then you get 2/3000 home fans cheering on the young lads with no chance of trouble and those supporters that regularly go or wish to attend can.
The sale of drinks/pies etc will cover the cost of the dozen or so stewards needed.

What is the point being drawn at home otherwise, I think it will actually benefit rovers more!

People know my thoughts on Lancs police, and this is ANOTHER reason I deem them incompetent to do their jobs.
( Lets not reel out it's not their fault line/days off/ etc etc, if they are not in a warm car/office they are not happy )

Do a week on the pavements of Liverpool and London for a eye opener.

sheffieldturfite
03-11-2015, 02:40 PM
Nobody is suggesting we take the same risk as the youth game and have 10,000+ on. But the reason the club get as much grief as the police is because they cannot adequately explain things in their press releases.

You would like to think the club gave the police four or five options, ranging from closed doors to a full stadium, with partial opening in between, with or without away fans. The police would then have given four or five quotes. OK, maybe there is an agreement not to make the quotes public, but nothing has been done to explain why the Bob Lord home fans only option (as an example) is not on the table.

I am picturing a brief imaginary conversation - "Give us a price 'guv". "Ooooh, that's a risky game. Very expensive. Has to be five figures". "OK, we won't let the fans in then. We might make a loss on the fixture". "Perfect. Now go away till next year. I'm too busy pushing some paper to talk any more. There's a good chap".

There is no doubt some police forces view foot

domclaret
03-11-2015, 02:45 PM
It took the club years to move away from the "we can't" attitude (i.e home fans in cricket field) just needs to go a bit further and start standing up to the police and their demands.

The bit about it's too late for advance sales ( yes it is if you arse about for 3 weeks after the draw is made) is garbage and something just to hide behind. There was plenty of time to make it home fans only if need be.

tybfc
03-11-2015, 02:54 PM
Who at our football club made this decision?

minniemouth
03-11-2015, 08:45 PM
Just been on CP. No live stream but live audio on CP.
Club hoping to get full match video coverage on CP freeview by 5pm Monday