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kempo
06-01-2016, 09:53 AM
I have always seen medicine as a vocation and a privilige and have never considered deserting the sick and striking.

I can see the argument against the removal of unsocial hours bonuses but does this justify leaving the sick and dying to others.

They must feel some shame otherwise they would not pretend its not about money when it clearly is.

Junior doctors are not well paid in the early years but has anyone on here ever seen a poor doctor?...No!

It takes a few years but it's not too long before a 100k and more comes rolling in..double for those doing private work!

Junior doctors should recognise the unique relationship between them and their patients and should never ever turn their back on them.

If the government gives them a kick then they should not kick the patients.

When I was a junior in hospital I worked every other day doing on call after a full days work....Doctors work nothing like those hours now.

Don't be conned by them...It's all about the money..

millmoormagic
06-01-2016, 10:09 AM
I think you hit the nail on the head, "double for those doing private work" I read an interesting article from a doctor saying how he saw it, that he actually thought that this is a deliberate government ploy to force doctors out of the NHS, weakening it further allowing even more private sector companies in. Now, we all now where and when they've done this before, with the miners in 1984, and if anyone is in any doubt that if this horrible government is prepared to take our health care the way of America then this is it. Time to stand up and be counted, so i'm fully behind them.

John2
06-01-2016, 11:40 AM
[quote="kempo"]I have always seen medicine as a vocation and a privilige and have never considered deserting the sick and striking.

I can see the argument against the removal of unsocial hours bonuses but does this justify leaving the sick and dying to others.

They must feel some shame otherwise they would not pretend its not about money when it clearly is.

Junior doctors are not well paid in the early years but has anyone on here ever seen a poor doctor?...No!

It takes a few years but it's not too long before a 100k and more comes rolling in..double for those doing private work!

Junior doctors should recognise the unique relationship between them and their patients and should never ever turn their back on them.

If the government gives them a kick then they should not kick the patients.

When I was a junior in hospital I worked every other day doing on call after a full days work....Doctors work nothing like those hours now.

Don't be con

crashbang
06-01-2016, 01:27 PM
They are well paid. If they don't like it , delivery groceries for asda.
Teachers next.
Junior doctors get more for working extra and anti-social hours (currently classified as outside 07:00 to 19:00 Monday to Friday) on top of the basic salary, which boosts their income. According to figures from the NHS Employers Organisation, the average total salary for a doctor in training is around 37,000.15 Oct 2015.
Now stop moaning



Median graduate starting salary by sector in 2014-15
Profession Salary
Law firm 37,000
Banking or financial services 31,250
Consulting or business services 28,500
IT & Telecommunication 28,500
Accountancy or professional service firm 28,000
Energy, water or utility company 26,750
Engineering or industrial company 25,750
Construction company or consultancy 25,500
Public sector 23,750
Teacher 23,000
Retail 21,500
Other 22,000
Source: AGR

John2
06-01-2016, 01:58 PM
Doctor in training is not the same as comparing starting salary.

The starting salary for a junior doctor is 22,636 if you want to compare with that list.

In addition, it costs a lot more in student loans and longer in education while not earning to become a doctor and start earning in the first place than it does those other professions.

Also there are many expenses junior doctors have that those other professions don't. Insurance and having to pay for the endless stream of exams are big.

Oh, and there's that too. Junior doctors work ridiculous hours... and then have to find time to revise for the constant exams they have to pay for.

When you look at how many hours they actually have to give, and the costs they also incur, their hourly pay is a lot less than you think.

And the ones that currently work the most unsocial hours are being told to take a 30% pay cut.

People delivering grocies for Asda don't have a fraction as much responsibility as doctors, but if they

crashbang
06-01-2016, 02:19 PM
[quote="John2"]Doctor in training is not the same as comparing starting salary.

The starting salary for a junior doctor is 22,636 if you want to compare with that list.

In addition, it costs a lot more in student loans and longer in education while not earning to become a doctor and start earning in the first place than it does those other professions.

Also there are many expenses junior doctors have that those other professions don't. Insurance and having to pay for the endless stream of exams are big.

Oh, and there's that too. Junior doctors work ridiculous hours... and then have to find time to revise for the constant exams they have to pay for.

When you look at how many hours they actually have to give, and the costs they also incur, their hourly pay is a lot less than you think.

And the ones that currently work the most unsocial hours are being told to take a 30% pay cut.

People delivering grocies for Asda don't have a fraction as muc

jolly_roger
06-01-2016, 02:40 PM
Unless you are directly employed by the NHS as a doctor I don't think you are knowledgable enough to make a sensible comment about this such is the pro and con propaganda we are fed.

Talking to a couple of imaginary doctor "friends" certainly doesn't qualify as being an expert in the matter.

John2
06-01-2016, 02:48 PM
Unless you are directly employed by the NHS as a doctor I don't think you are knowledgable enough to make a sensible comment about this such is the pro and con propaganda we are fed.

Talking to a couple of imaginary doctor "friends" certainly doesn't qualify as being an expert in the matter.

So nobody is allowed to express a political opinion in any area they do not directly work in?

What an absurd and intellectually vacuous argument. Thank you for your "contribution".

kempo
07-01-2016, 08:06 PM
Clearly John, as in all topics on here you are an expert and understandably you know far more about the NHS than I do.

The only point I made that you actually challenge is that you confidently state that I was wrong in saying doctors used to work longer hours.

Well you are totally wrong...maybe this doesn't show up on your googling but 70 hours/ week in my time as a junior doctor would have been a holiday!..I don't say it's the right way to treat doctors but it's a fact that you dispute and you are wrong.

You are sorry that I feel doctors should not abandon their sick and dying patients ...well I am sorry that you have so little compassion for these people who have no dispute with their doctors!

In discussions with you, I observe that you never manage to show any of my facts re the NHS are wrong.

If you read my post, I don't suggest that the doctors don't have an argument to put to the government but suggest that they should not abandon their patients.

Give opinions b

John2
07-01-2016, 10:55 PM
Clearly John, as in all topics on here you are an expert and understandably you know far more about the NHS than I do.

I have no doubt you know more about the NHS than me. What I know comes through my Junior Doctor girlfriend, but fortunately she is a smart and articulate woman.


The only point I made that you actually challenge is that you confidently state that I was wrong in saying doctors used to work longer hours.

Well you are totally wrong...maybe this doesn't show up on your googling but 70 hours/ week in my time as a junior doctor would have been a holiday!..I don't say it's the right way to treat doctors but it's a fact that you dispute and you are wrong.

Totally wrong?

In response to:
"When I was a junior in hospital I worked every other day doing on call after a full days work....Doctors work nothing like those hours now."
I said:
"Wrong, doctors still work ridicu

sawmiller
07-01-2016, 11:11 PM
the joys of being outsmarted OPINION of course

millmoormagic
07-01-2016, 11:23 PM
Incidentally, you've not actually engaged any of the opinions I expressed, you just tried to undermine my post with diversionary tactics.

As ever is the case, if you can't blind em with science, baffle em with bull shine.....one or two on here (or is it just the one?) are experts at it....

Mickg1532
08-01-2016, 12:35 AM
All I know that I have just spent a few weeks in Doncaster Royal Infirmary, have had a few operations and to be honest I never saw a doctor with a sweat on,and I wouldn't pay half of them with washers, and that is from experience, end of

mikemiller
08-01-2016, 12:38 AM
Yes, of course they should go on strike...how many years do they spend before they qualify on breadline wages . student loans, etc...and although I was previously thinking that Kempo was (sort of) somebody with a medical background of some sort,I i am now convinced that he isn't actually a medical doctor...
Of course, if you want to be treated by somebody who is unqualified , or somebody who is too knackered to do the job properly, just contact David Cameron to congratulate him on his NHS policies

mikemiller
08-01-2016, 12:42 AM
All I know that I have just spent a few weeks in Doncaster Royal Infirmary, have had a few operations and to be honest I never saw a doctor with a sweat on,and I wouldn't pay half of them with washers, and that is from experience, end of

So you are saying that you DO want to be treated by a sweaty overworked doctor? ...have you gone completely off your head???

yep. if you could have sorted out the trivial medical problem yourself so easily , why did you even bother going into hospital in the first place...LOL!

Have a think about what you are actually writing before you start regurgitating the bullship that you have read in the Murdoch press ...or comments from Kempo

CTMilller
08-01-2016, 01:49 AM
This is a hard one but I would just about come down in favour of striking. Kempo's argument about not abandoning patients is very compelling but it works both ways. At the moment we trust junior doctors with the amazing responsibility of keeping people alive and making them well but we're threatening to significantly reduce the reward they receive for this huge responsibility. In my view this is not keeping faith in a very carefully balanced relationship and there has to be some opportunity to redress the balance.

I think there is an important distinction to be made between striking to maintain the status quo and striking for more. If it were the latter, I would not be sympathetic and would lean towards Crash's viewpoint.

Whether junior doctors may have had it worse in the past in terms of hours is neither here nor there in my book. In all walks of life, work-life balance has generally improved so, if this also applies to junior doctors, that doesn't seem unreasonable. The poin

crashbang
08-01-2016, 06:17 AM
Everyone in the World knows junior Doctors work long hours.
Like hundreds of other jobs. Were they Conscripted?
Were they so thick that they never read their contracts.
Iv'e done 60hr shifts for 20 years , working at that.
24hr on 24hr off for 5 years.
No sympathy what so ever.

michaeldc
08-01-2016, 08:25 AM
Honestly Kempo, it's schoolground tactics really. Make sure you get your accusations in first, accuse the other guy of doing what you're doing and say it often enough so daft people start to believe you...

Every time you get involved in a 'debate' like this it's like pulling teeth because you're just so full of bullsh*t. I don't know why people even bother to engage you anymore but then, they give IBS the time of day as well.

As for crashbang, well, you've won the award for the most bitter sounding person on the planet and it's only January 8th! I'm just gonna leave the tripe you've posted below this so people can see the inane, tedious and outright stupid responces you have given and really take them in.



"They are well paid. If they don't like it , delivery groceries for asda. Teachers next. Junior doctors get more for working extra and anti-social hours (currently classified as outside 07:00 to 19:00 Monday to Friday) on top of the basic salary, which boosts their income

John2
08-01-2016, 08:28 AM
Everyone in the World knows junior Doctors work long hours.
Like hundreds of other jobs. Were they Conscripted?
Were they so thick that they never read their contracts.
Iv'e done 60hr shifts for 20 years , working at that.
24hr on 24hr off for 5 years.
No sympathy what so ever.

Who's the thick one here...

The doctors did read their contracts. The entire reason for this strike is their agreed contracts are being changed by the government.

It's irrelevant what you work. I can say for a fact every single junior doctor is far more skilled and capable than you.

These are people who got straight A's at GCSE and A Levels and as has been pointed out could make a lot of money in anything they do.

They've chosen a career that involves a much higher workload than the average person works. They may only do 48 hours on average now, but in reality they end up working more, and certainly they have to spend many more hours of thei

millmoormagic
08-01-2016, 08:33 AM
Everyone in the World knows junior Doctors work long hours.
Like hundreds of other jobs. Were they Conscripted?
Were they so thick that they never read their contracts.
Iv'e done 60hr shifts for 20 years , working at that.
24hr on 24hr off for 5 years.
No sympathy what so ever.

Quite an unbelievable attitude that really, what this is about is not about money really, it's about the quality of service you get, now if you want the doctors to be worked to the point of exhaustion and still expect an exemplary service then you're deluded. It makes no difference whatsoever what hours you work, why is that relevant? in fact it's you that also should be asking your employer for less hours, what don't you get about trying to get better working conditions and more sociable working hours, don't you want to improve that or are you happy to keep getting shat on by your employer? Anybody here heard of the work/life balance?
This country and

kempo
08-01-2016, 08:38 AM
I certainly wouldn't trust mikemillers that's for sure.

As you say John much of it is indeed opinion and people can see mine and see yours and decide.

I am glad to see that even though you tried to hide it, you did retract your wrong statement re my facts on doctors' hours.

We differ on the meaning of abandon but I would say that striking and leaving patients who are normally my responsibility is abandoning.

Those who think that it's ok to strike including for emergencies...Then I hope it's not your child who requires life saving treatment on strike day as I would suggest that juniors being absent is slightly more dangerous than being tired!

Of course after all this, the full day plus emergency strike will not go ahead....but what do I know?

I would agree that anyone is entitled to opinion and there are some good ones on here CT's being one of them.

I give mine from 30 years experience as a doctor in the NHS ( contrary to the wrong opinion from mikemillers )....Hav

kempo
08-01-2016, 08:46 AM
Crashbang..I think your points are a bit strong and a little unfair to doctors but certainly valid.

My dad worked in the steelworks and I remember him going to Hadfields on his bike at 7 am on a Winter's morning.

I know which job I prefer!

John2
08-01-2016, 09:05 AM
I am glad to see that even though you tried to hide it, you did retract your wrong statement re my facts on doctors' hours.

What was wrong about my statement? I never said they worked the same, just that they still worked, in my opinion, ridiculous hours. My opinion aspect was subjective and therefore was not wrong.


We differ on the meaning of abandon but I would say that striking and leaving patients who are normally my responsibility is abandoning.

Those who think that it's ok to strike including for emergencies...Then I hope it's not your child who requires life saving treatment on strike day as I would suggest that juniors being absent is slightly more dangerous than being tired!

Are you saying Consultants won't be drafted in to cover emergencies? Elective surgeries will be delayed, but that's not going to put lives at risk.

[quote="kempo"]II like

Mickg1532
08-01-2016, 04:30 PM
Millmoore I work in the public sector and have been screwed over many times, and still getting screwed, where was the Doctors supporting me, they should sack the lot and let the nurses take over as they make all the decisions, a doctor sent me home with a fractured spine and broken wrist, oh he put a sling on my arm, The NHS is in a state because of all the claims against Doctors negligence.

kempo
08-01-2016, 07:49 PM
John2.....You continue to get things wrong

Let's not keep going on about the hours in the past and present...If you read your post you states that I was wrong to say that I worked more hours in my time..so let's clear that up...I was correct because in the early 80s we worked far more than 70 hours.

Your suggestion that consultants can safely cover for all the juniors removing themselves from emergency cover is a bit naive...There are not enough to cover safely especially if some are in the operating theatre for instance who then will assess the incoming patients and who will look after inpatient problems?

I don't know the numbers or even what the plans are but I'm sure they are going to struggle and the risks will increase.

The 30000 figure comes from The NHS Employers Organisation so I accept your apology for you getting it wrong.

It's obviously made up from the basic payment plus the extra payments they earn so just taking an average of the basic pay is a nonsense.

millavanilla
08-01-2016, 10:08 PM
Here here mm...absolutely spot on....its the footballers who needapay cut...what they get paid is ridiculous

John2
09-01-2016, 01:21 PM
John2.....You continue to get things wrong

Let's not keep going on about the hours in the past and present...If you read your post you states that I was wrong to say that I worked more hours in my time..so let's clear that up...I was correct because in the early 80s we worked far more than 70 hours.

Fine, you can have this, I don't want to keep having a side argument, because ultimately its not relevant to and distracting from the main discussion.

I am genuinely interested, can you give an example of your typical hours in the early 1980s, the typical Monday to Sunday? I'm thoroughly impressed and have a lot of respect for that workload.

[quote="kempo"]Your suggestion that consultants can safely cover for all the juniors removing themselves from emergency cover is a bit naive...There are not enough to cover safely especially if some are in the operating theatre for instance who then will assess the inco

John2
09-01-2016, 01:23 PM
Millmoore I work in the public sector and have been screwed over many times, and still getting screwed, where was the Doctors supporting me, they should sack the lot and let the nurses take over as they make all the decisions, a doctor sent me home with a fractured spine and broken wrist, oh he put a sling on my arm, The NHS is in a state because of all the claims against Doctors negligence.

Do you think doctors negligence has increased?

Or do you think claims against for doctors for negligence have increased?

kempo
09-01-2016, 10:03 PM
In the early 80 s a houseman would typically work a one in 3 or one in 2 on call.

For instance I did two six months jobs both ' one in two ' so a typical week that included the weekend would be Mon 8.30 to 6 pm( routine day) 6pm to 8.30 am on call in the hospital...Tues 8.30to 6pm( routine day) evening off..Wed 8.30 to 6pm ( routine day) 6pm to 8.30 on call Thursday 8.30 am to 6pm evening off Friday 8.30 to 6pm( routine day) on call for rest of weekend and start routine again Monday 8.30 am!!!

Following week would alternate in a similar way being off at weekend from 6pm

Weekend on call would mean fairly continuous work through the day.Evenings and nights would be variable with 'emergency take days' being very busy..none take days variable ....very rare to sleep through without having to get up.

Out of routine hours were the weekend and after 6pm and were paid as UMT's(unit of monetary time)...The rate was LESS than basic hourly rate.

We had 4 weeks holiday/ year pllus h

kempo
09-01-2016, 10:33 PM
Re Negligence claims.

In 2014 The NHS paid out 1.1 Billion Pounds in negligence cases..Approx 1/3 of this went to the legal profession.( most of this 1/3 to claimants lawyers)......

kempo
10-01-2016, 09:36 AM
Maybe I haven't made some of my views perfectly clear John as we have deviated to a number of issues, interesting ones in my mind.

We agree on more things than it would first seem.

I agree with most if not all of the doctors' grievances but do not agree with striking as it hits and hurts the patients who are not the people they have a grievance with.

Especially I cannot support the removal of emergency care although I truly think that even at this stage they will not remove emergency cover.

It's the government that is responsible for this dispute not the juniors and not the patients...I think that we both agree on that.

I hope that the consultants will be there in numbers together with the staff grade docs or whatever they are called now...I know one thing, It will bring back happy memories for the consultants and they will love it as long as its only for a day or two.....Whether they can still put a drip up should be an interesting challenge for some!

John2
10-01-2016, 09:49 PM
Maybe I haven't made some of my views perfectly clear John as we have deviated to a number of issues, interesting ones in my mind.

Your opening post seems to primarily attack 'greedy' junior doctors.

I'm relieved it now seems you side with them on 'most if not all' grievances.

You also accept that the government is responsible for the dispute, and seem to agree with me that the imposed contracts will jeopardise the future of the NHS.

Considering the government was planning to impose this contract without agreement from junior doctors, in order to prevent it, what other choice do the junior doctors have other than striking?

You seem to be saying its the governments fault, and then blaming the doctors for being forced into this position.

kempo
11-01-2016, 08:29 AM
I have never changed my position but corrected some false statements.

I said that junior doctors were lowly paid but in a few years become highly paid.

I did not call them greedy.

I corrected your misleading statement on earnings and gave their true earnings of 30000

I explained that they work far less hours than juniors did in the 80 s but stated that I didn't want those hours to come back.

I criticised them for pretending this dispute is about keeping up the standards of patient care when it's about money.

I have said that they should not strike.

Other than the strike you seem to have come around to accepting all these points.

Striking is unethical and when the Sun plasters the of someone who dies because of it over their front page , it will not help their cause.

You seem genuinely interested in the NHS and if you really want to know what actually happens on the inside ask me don't believe google and with respect I would guess that your girlfriend

John2
11-01-2016, 09:20 AM
I did not call them greedy.

"Don't be conned by them...It's all about the money...that's sad indeed.

Treating and helping the sick is a privilige not a way of becoming rich quick."

You don't think this reads like the doctors are at fault for financial greed?


I have said that they should not strike.

But, as the government would impose a damaging contract anyway that would cost patient lives, you have not suggested what they should do instead?


Striking is unethical and when the Sun plasters the of someone who dies because of it over their front page , it will not help their cause.

Surely what the government is doing is unethical? Why are you exempting them from responsibility? Why does a frontpage headline reflect on the doctors, who are having a contract imposed, rather than the government that is imposing it?

If you

kempo
12-01-2016, 10:04 AM
You are always making false accusations John...I'm not side stepping any issue.

The government is at fault as the cause of this is the futile attempts to deliver the ridiculous promise of a 7 day NHS...I have often explained on here why this cannot happen without a massive injection of new money.

I have clearly explained why doctors should not put lives at risk...of course the government must also take responsibility but this does not negate the doctors' responsibility.

All their talk today is about losing money and child care issues which is fair enough but that's not patient safety....Come out and say its about money ..tell the truth.

Doctors have gone a bit soft and of course one thing that cannot be said is that the high percentage of women in medical training has created some of these problems because they are reluctant to work long and unsocial hours...I can say it.

A doctor this morning was telling us all that st present she was allowed a 30 minute break every 4 h

John2
12-01-2016, 11:00 AM
So, other than striking, what can they do to prevent the contracts being imposed?

You do keep sidestepping it.

You're not offering any alternative that would prevent the contracts being imposed.

kempo
12-01-2016, 11:12 AM
If the government move to impose a contract the BMA should collect hundreds of presigned resignation letters ready to hand in on the day that the contract is imposed.

I trust that this is not side stepping.

Another form of action without putting lives at risk would be to 'work to contract ' plus stop certain administrative work such as writing reports and certificates which would be disruptive.
This would of course cause great inconvenience to the public and even distress but would not threaten their lives.

jolly_roger
12-01-2016, 11:27 AM
Maybe the docs have misjudged this, there seems to be a lack of support from the general public for the strike.

Pockets of support perhaps but I don't think it's had the effect the docs wanted.

brassgnat
12-01-2016, 11:51 AM
Been up to the picket line at the district general and a very positive mood of solidarity from patients, other health workers, drivers papping their horns (Including white man van who supposed to be Sun reading Tory ), Ex-miner crossing the road to shake hands with the doctors etc.
Another good thing, as with other health workers protests, you will see on pictures the multi-ethnic faces of essential NHS staff.

John2
12-01-2016, 12:10 PM
If the government move to impose a contract the BMA should collect hundreds of presigned resignation letters ready to hand in on the day that the contract is imposed.

I trust that this is not side stepping.

Another form of action without putting lives at risk would be to 'work to contract ' plus stop certain administrative work such as writing reports and certificates which would be disruptive.
This would of course cause great inconvenience to the public and even distress but would not threaten their lives.


Finally, an alternative!

Sadly I feel, not a realistic one. People with mortgages to pay and mouths to feed cannot go banding resignation letters about, that in any right-minded persons war chest should be a last resort, not an opener.

We have our disagreements, long term vs short term about lives being at risk. I genuinely believe these attacks on the NHS put far more lives at risk in the long term. I am confident th

the_idiotb_stardson
12-01-2016, 12:36 PM
Been up to the picket line at the district general and a very positive mood of solidarity from patients, other health workers, drivers papping their horns (Including white man van who supposed to be Sun reading Tory ), Ex-miner crossing the road to shake hands with the doctors etc.
Another good thing, as with other health workers protests, you will see on pictures the multi-ethnic faces of essential NHS staff.

It's time to dig out these commie trouble-makers once and for all.

jolly_roger
12-01-2016, 01:26 PM
If the government move to impose a contract the BMA should collect hundreds of presigned resignation letters ready to hand in on the day that the contract is imposed.

I trust that this is not side stepping.

Another form of action without putting lives at risk would be to 'work to contract ' plus stop certain administrative work such as writing reports and certificates which would be disruptive.
This would of course cause great inconvenience to the public and even distress but would not threaten their lives.


Finally, an alternative!

Sadly I feel, not a realistic one. People with mortgages to pay and mouths to feed cannot go banding resignation letters about, that in any right-minded persons war chest should be a last resort, not an opener.

We have our disagreements, long term vs short term about lives being at risk. I genuinely believe these attacks on the NHS put far more lives at

John2
12-01-2016, 01:35 PM
Yes John it's called the real one not fantasy island where you seem to live XD

Even the comments section of the Daily Mail is overwhelmingly in support of the doctors on this, you're laughably disconnected from reality.

Allow me to copy and paste for your consumption the 'best rated' and 'worst rated' comments from the article on Junior doctors.

With 3110 likes to 450 dislikes is this comment:
"It's very simple. 98% of the junior Doctors have agreed to the strike. This 98% is made up of startlingly intelligent, well educated individuals who know their job inside and out. Jeremy Hunt, does NOT know the job inside and out. The decisions he has made have NOT come from a board of medical professionals but from outside consultancy teams who don't know the job. This strike is NOT damaging to patient health. It is only elective procedures that are cancelled. The consultants are covering the junior doctors, they agree with the str

kempo
12-01-2016, 03:31 PM
If the government move to impose a contract the BMA should collect hundreds of presigned resignation letters ready to hand in on the day that the contract is imposed.

I trust that this is not side stepping.

Another form of action without putting lives at risk would be to 'work to contract ' plus stop certain administrative work such as writing reports and certificates which would be disruptive.
This would of course cause great inconvenience to the public and even distress but would not threaten their lives.


Finally, an alternative!

Sadly I feel, not a realistic one. People with mortgages to pay and mouths to feed cannot go banding resignation letters about, that in any right-minded persons war chest should be a last resort, not an opener.

We have our disagreements, long term vs short term about lives being at risk. I genuinely believe these attacks on the NHS put far more lives at

kempo
12-01-2016, 03:36 PM
The chairman of the patients association has condemned the strike today and Mike Smith does know the job inside out.

kempo
12-01-2016, 04:02 PM
Yes John it's called the real one not fantasy island where you seem to live XD

Even the comments section of the Daily Mail is overwhelmingly in support of the doctors on this, you're laughably disconnected from reality.

Allow me to copy and paste for your consumption the 'best rated' and 'worst rated' comments from the article on Junior doctors.

With 3110 likes to 450 dislikes is this comment:
"It's very simple. 98% of the junior Doctors have agreed to the strike. This 98% is made up of startlingly intelligent, well educated individuals who know their job inside and out. Jeremy Hunt, does NOT know the job inside and out. The decisions he has made have NOT come from a board of medical professionals but from outside consultancy teams who don't know the job. This strike is NOT damaging to patient health. It is only elective procedures that are cancelled. The consultants are covering the

John2
12-01-2016, 04:36 PM
Kempo, you've got carried away and completely missed the point.

I copied and pasted to show how many likes each comment was getting, and demonstrate that public opinion is on the side of the doctors.

I wasn't using the copy and paste content for the first comment as an argument, any more than I was calling doctors shameful as the content of the second suggested.

the_idiotb_stardson
12-01-2016, 05:21 PM
Very interesting thread fellas.

I have read a number of daily newspaper's on this topic and they haven't addressed the complexities of this issue as well as you.