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View Full Version : Don Street, again !



BramleyMiller58
18-09-2018, 06:53 PM
Thought the Don Street experience on Saturday was one of the worst experienced, the random barrier in the Car Park road was bizarre & meeting up with DCFC fans on Main Street could have turned nasty especially as SYP presence was counted as NIL.


So I decided to follow up my e-mail to SYP from last March as of yet had no reply (what a surprise) but copied RUFC this time


Paul Davis got straight back and we had a long conversation re the situation.
He ended the call by saying he would welcome any SENSIBLE suggestions on how it could be improved.


So here's your chance !

welovebooth
18-09-2018, 07:25 PM
why can't he think of any himself

the_idiotb_stardson
18-09-2018, 07:39 PM
Thought the Don Street experience on Saturday was one of the worst experienced, the random barrier in the Car Park road was bizarre & meeting up with DCFC fans on Main Street could have turned nasty especially as SYP presence was counted as NIL.


So I decided to follow up my e-mail to SYP from last March as of yet had no reply (what a surprise) but copied RUFC this time


Paul Davis got straight back and we had a long conversation re the situation.
He ended the call by saying he would welcome any SENSIBLE suggestions on how it could be improved.


So here's your chance !

Do you mean Paul Douglas?

My suggestion is this: keep the way fans back for 5 minutes.

i know, I know, human rights.

However if Rotherham fans are attacked on Saturday on Main Street by Stoke City hooligans, I will ask 'what about my human right, not to get attacked when it was entirely preventable?

I can see a big legal problem coming at SYP and RUFC anytime soon, when someone gets kicked unconscious....just to preserve 'human rights"....keep em in for 5 minutes and the problem disappears.

frogmiller
18-09-2018, 07:42 PM
It is the easiest solution to the problem IBS but they've never done it before and they'll not do it ever. It is as if they keep saying I told you so every time there is no trouble.

BramleyMiller58
18-09-2018, 07:53 PM
why can't he think of any himself

He probably has and does
Only people who can authorise holding back are SYP

It was slightly better after the Millwall game as East Stand were directed through Car Park rather than onto Don Street thus removing two streams of people meeting at the Car Park exit
This should, according to him, have been actioned on Saturday but wasn't

But ideas from people who have to experience it can't hurt. Can they ?
Can't see the problem in them asking for customers suggestions
God knows there's plenty of complaints that the club don't listen.

I've challenged him to actually experience the walk rather than observing plus also challenged SYP to do same (in plain clothes)

Apparently the whole "segregation" thing was brought in after our first home game with Chezzie

BramleyMiller58
18-09-2018, 07:55 PM
Do you mean Paul Douglas?

My suggestion is this: keep the way fans back for 5 minutes.

i know, I know, human rights.

However if Rotherham fans are attacked on Saturday on Main Street by Stoke City hooligans, I will ask 'what about my human right, not to get attacked when it was entirely preventable?

I can see a big legal problem coming at SYP and RUFC anytime soon, when someone gets kicked unconscious....just to preserve 'human rights"....keep em in for 5 minutes and the problem disappears.

No Paul Davis
Stadium security Manager

Do you think Douglas would actually lower himself to talk to a fan ?

Only people who can authorise holding back, according to Paul Davis are SYP

BramleyMiller58
18-09-2018, 08:12 PM
Do you mean Paul Douglas?

My suggestion is this: keep the way fans back for 5 minutes.

i know, I know, human rights.

However if Rotherham fans are attacked on Saturday on Main Street by Stoke City hooligans, I will ask 'what about my human right, not to get attacked when it was entirely preventable?

I can see a big legal problem coming at SYP and RUFC anytime soon, when someone gets kicked unconscious....just to preserve 'human rights"....keep em in for 5 minutes and the problem disappears.

Fully agree mate
SYP have, unfortunately, history on these type of issues
Still if (& I hope never) it happens those at the top of SYP will be admonished of all responsibility and the tea lady prosecuted to the full extent of the law !

mellowmiller
18-09-2018, 08:45 PM
The human rights thing does not apply, it's just a red herring.
I think it's more likely that the club probably don't want away fans held back in case they cause damage to the away end of the stadium.
Can you imagine what might have happened on Saturday if Derby fans had been held back?

the_idiotb_stardson
18-09-2018, 08:47 PM
The human rights thing does not apply, it's just a red herring.
I think it's more likely that the club probably don't want away fans held back in case they cause damage to the away end of the stadium.
Can you imagine what might have happened on Saturday if Derby fans had been held back?

Yes i can...lots of people would not have been punched and kicked on main street.

great_fire
18-09-2018, 09:01 PM
That's two games now I've seen fighting at the traffic lights at the bottom there.

But if the home fans were held back longer they'd complain and with reason since it should be the away fans waiting.

And it's pretty much right next to the police station too, bit embarrassing for the police or are they immune to embarrassment now?

the_idiotb_stardson
18-09-2018, 09:06 PM
look what's the problem here

keep em locked in away end until the crowd clears

print a notice on the away tickets that this will happen....anyone who attends the match will know in advance.

if they kick off....arrest em and bang 'em up

the_idiotb_stardson
18-09-2018, 09:08 PM
can't believe how namby pamby....the law has become and corbyn isn't even in power yet.

if people smash seats, vandalise stuff, chuck stuff or start feytin.....they have broken the law

great_fire
18-09-2018, 09:11 PM
Maybe when we leave the EU we can leave the European Human Rights thing that Blair signed up to as well and then we can keep them in.

(He probably only signed us up to it to get more work for his wife).

ragingpup
19-09-2018, 06:24 AM
What leads us to think that "human rights" are the reason for not keeping away fans behind? Is that an official thing now?? Where's it say that? First I've head of it.

Brin
19-09-2018, 06:33 AM
All in all, SYP just want everyone gone so they can rap up. To serve and protect my arse!

flourbasher
19-09-2018, 06:36 AM
In Agentina they keep the home fans locked in for 30 mins to let the away fans disperse.
This is largely because most teams in the top flight are based in Buenos Aires so they can get away safely on public transport.

Unfortunately if the away team wins they won't leave and celebrate in the ground for half an hour.
Stalemate

mellowmiller
19-09-2018, 06:41 AM
What leads us to think that "human rights" are the reason for not keeping away fans behind? Is that an official thing now?? Where's it say that? First I've head of it.
Human rights legislation does not prevent supporters being held back. That decision is entirely in the hands of the club and the police.

KerrAvon
19-09-2018, 06:43 AM
First, a few fun facts about Human Rights. The creation of a European Convention was championed by Winston Churchill after the Second World War. One of the main authors of the contents of the convention was David Maxwell-Fyfe - a British politician and lawyer. The UK signed up in 1950 as one of the first signatories.

The objection to a blanket policy of detaining football supporters after games comes from English Common Law and can be traced back to Magna Carta, which outlawed arbitrary detention without trial. The European Convention on Human Rights has only very limited implications for the management of football supporters as it merely repeats the English Common Law position.

If the police or club wanted to detain away supporters after a game, they would need to be able to justify such a policy by reference to the law. In practice, that means that they could only detain them if they reasonably and objectively assessed that it was necessary to prevent a breach of the peace. Any blanket detention would clearly fall foul of the need for such a reasonable and objectively held belief and would be unlawful. The fact is that supporters can generally mingle without trouble - I went to Villa last night and upon leaving the ground turned right into the face of many of the home supporters who were leaving the ground. Neither they nor I seemed to want a punch up.

The problem is primarily with the geography of the DVS. I'm surprised the police did not object to it being built there.

millertop
19-09-2018, 07:03 AM
Only sensible thing hing atm would be to hold away fans back but doesn’t look like hats going to happen for reason only known to club/SYP.

Hopefully it’ll be sorted when/if the planning pergoes through for away end exit

ragingpup
19-09-2018, 07:04 AM
First, a few fun facts about Human Rights. The creation of a European Convention was championed by Winston Churchill after the Second World War. One of the main authors of the contents of the convention was David Maxwell-Fyfe - a British politician and lawyer. The UK signed up in 1950 as one of the first signatories.

The objection to a blanket policy of detaining football supporters after games comes from English Common Law and can be traced back to Magna Carta, which outlawed arbitrary detention without trial. The European Convention on Human Rights has only very limited implications for the management of football supporters as it merely repeats the English Common Law position.

If the police or club wanted to detain away supporters after a game, they would need to be able to justify such a policy by reference to the law. In practice, that means that they could only detain them if they reasonably and objectively assessed that it was necessary to prevent a breach of the peace. Any blanket detention would clearly fall foul of the need for such a reasonable and objectively held belief and would be unlawful. The fact is that supporters can generally mingle without trouble - I went to Villa last night and upon leaving the ground turned right into the face of many of the home supporters who were leaving the ground. Neither they nor I seemed to want a punch up.

The problem is primarily with the geography of the DVS. I'm surprised the police did not object to it being built there.


Thanks Kerr. So, if SYP felt their was a reasonable and objective chance of bovver, they could hold away fans back? Human rights isn't the thing stopping them??

KerrAvon
19-09-2018, 07:21 AM
Thanks Kerr. So, if SYP felt their was a reasonable and objective chance of bovver, they could hold away fans back? Human rights isn't the thing stopping them??Yes, that is my understanding of the position, save that it is a reasonable and objective belief that is required (there's always a chance).

The plain fact that they are dealing with football supporters is incapable of creating the required objective and reasonable belief. There would need to be some particular feature that could be relied upon.

BramleyMiller58
19-09-2018, 08:28 AM
Thanks Kerr. So, if SYP felt their was a reasonable and objective chance of bovver, they could hold away fans back? Human rights isn't the thing stopping them??

Yes they could

Also just realised that RUFC already hold fans back

If you're in the car park you are prevented from leaving for 10-15 minutes after the game (albeit sat in your vehicle)

It's part of the T&C's when you buy the permit so as mentioned earlier make it part of the T&C's on the away fans tickets that "RUFC & SYP reserve the right to keep you within the ground/rear car park for up to 10 minutes after the game has finished"

If they buy a ticket with those T&C's they are accepting them therefore cannot object

KerrAvon
19-09-2018, 09:28 AM
If it's in the T and Cs then that would assist, but the police are a public body and can be Judicially Reviewed if they behave irrationally or unreasonably, which I think would be the position if they introduced an arbitrary rather than a considered hold back policy. Human Rights considerations would be engaged on that point.

There is also the practical point of whether the club and police would have the resources to control a large group of people who were angry at being held back.

PeteWaller
19-09-2018, 10:29 AM
If the police or club wanted to detain away supporters after a game, they would need to be able to justify such a policy by reference to the law. In practice, that means that they could only detain them if they reasonably and objectively assessed that it was necessary to prevent a breach of the peace. Any blanket detention would clearly fall foul of the need for such a reasonable and objectively held belief and would be unlawful. The fact is that supporters can generally mingle without trouble - I went to Villa last night and upon leaving the ground turned right into the face of many of the home supporters who were leaving the ground. Neither they nor I seemed to want a punch up.

I interpret that as being able to hold all away fans back. Surely they don't have to assess each of the individuals within a 2500 away end?

Also Kerr, "upon leaving the ground turned right into the face of many of the home supporters who were leaving the ground. Neither they nor I seemed to want a punch up". Of course there is no problem there. The problem arises if you don't want a punch up but another fan does, surely? The need for common sense suggests to me that SYP hold back the away fans for a period of 5-10 minutes. I'm almost sure if the matter went to adjudication, common sense would prevail. No?

KerrAvon
19-09-2018, 10:51 AM
No, there isn't, of course, a requirement to assess each individual supporter. It's about assessing the risk as a whole. For example, if there was specific and reliable intelligence that a group of supporters intended to kick off or if there had been incidents of disorder in the ground, then that could be taken into account. In addition, the police use the past behaviour to 'score' supporters of individual teams to determine the level of risk they pose.

What the police can't do is approach matters upon the basis that people are football supporters and so can be routinely kept back. The logical outcome of that approach would be to totally ban away support.

If a Villa supporter wanted a fight with me I would have legged it if I could or defended myself if I couldn't. It's impossible to completely guard against people who are set on violence. There is some assumption of risk in every walk of life. As an example, my work tells me that it is fairly easy to get thumped for 'looking at someone in the wrong way' in a pub. Sadly, that's life.

jocksgloves
19-09-2018, 08:03 PM
It may have been trickier walking through the Villa fans if they hadn't won.

rolymiller
19-09-2018, 08:08 PM
Good point Jock think the Derby fans wouldn't have chucked the seat if they had won. Its funny how bad losers can turn nasty int it?

KerrAvon
19-09-2018, 08:29 PM
It may have been trickier walking through the Villa fans if they hadn't won.Rotherham lost, but I didn't feel any urge to kick off and didn't notice anyone else doing so.

Villa supporters don't have any particular reputation for violence of which I am aware.

the_idiotb_stardson
19-09-2018, 09:02 PM
That raises an interesting point though Kerr. Stoke fans have a terrible reputation and I would say that the probability of trouble is higher than normal. I am not alone in this opinion. Most fans in football are aware of Stoke's reputation.

Now surely the club are responsible if they put fans at risk knowing that the risk of trouble is much much higher than normal?

BramleyMiller58
19-09-2018, 09:26 PM
Need to do a quick look (c/w pictures) tomorrow, or when I can but …………..

There is access from the South stand to a walkway that goes through to Brinsworth Road / Armer street

No need for away fans to be held back
They have an option

Wait for 10 minutes until New York Way is opened to them or ……….
Walk down the ,now tarmacked, footpath down to Brinsworth Lane. where, if they were previously instructed, they can get into their vehicle

KerrAvon
19-09-2018, 09:30 PM
That raises an interesting point though Kerr. Stoke fans have a terrible reputation and I would say that the probability of trouble is higher than normal. I am not alone in this opinion. Most fans in football are aware of Stoke's reputation.

Now surely the club are responsible if they put fans at risk knowing that the risk of trouble is much much higher than normal? I've not read the Wikipedia pages on civil liability yet, IBS, and wouldn't like to comment in depth. Let me pose this question though, if your suggestion is right, surely the only way that the club could address that risk would be to ban away supporters from 'riskier' clubs? After all, holding supporters back for five minutes does not prevent trouble before the game or away from the ground after it.

BramleyMiller58
19-09-2018, 09:39 PM
Need to do a quick look (c/w pictures) tomorrow, or when I can but …………..

There is access from the South stand to a walkway that goes through to Brinsworth Road / Armer street

No need for away fans to be held back
They have an option

Wait for 10 minutes until New York Way is opened to them or ……….
Walk down the ,now tarmacked, footpath down to Brinsworth Lane. where, if they were previously instructed, they can get into their vehicle




Sorry I've had the week from Hell

The picture was supposed to show the route but buggered if I know how to paste it !

BramleyMiller58
19-09-2018, 09:44 PM
10698

Done it ?

millertop
20-09-2018, 06:47 AM
That’s probably the route that’s currently blocked and the club are waiting on planning permission to open it up, I don’t know how long or if they have permission yet but they were hoping to have done the job before Christmas

Silly-miller
20-09-2018, 10:36 AM
Thought the Don Street experience on Saturday was one of the worst experienced, the random barrier in the Car Park road was bizarre & meeting up with DCFC fans on Main Street could have turned nasty especially as SYP presence was counted as NIL.


So I decided to follow up my e-mail to SYP from last March as of yet had no reply (what a surprise) but copied RUFC this time


Paul Davis got straight back and we had a long conversation re the situation.
He ended the call by saying he would welcome any SENSIBLE suggestions on how it could be improved.


So here's your chance !

My dad sent a e-mail as well he was told same thing can’t hold them back and would welcome a meeting to discuss the matter.

Thing is there’s always options

1 Build a new exit for away fans
2 send away fans up don street

These are only options I can think of

8000 fans down one small street is begging for trouble

mellowmiller
21-09-2018, 10:20 AM
My ex son-in-law is a police officer in the West Midlands and he says away fans at Wolves games are routinely held back if the authorities think there is a need to do it.
Human rights legislation doesn't seem to get in the way there.

mellowmiller
21-09-2018, 10:23 AM
Would we even be having this debate if the home and away ends had been reversed from when the stadium first opened?

welovebooth
21-09-2018, 05:09 PM
I think another reason they don't hold them back aswell is the quicker the away fans get out the area the less chance there is of trouble.

nakedtruth
21-09-2018, 05:23 PM
The main issue is SYP just couldn’t be arsed to do proper policing.

They expect stewards to do their job for them whilst they sit back and trouser maximum overtime.

They moved the Millwall game because it suited them (not the club) but kept the equally problematic Derby game unchanged.

mellowmiller
26-09-2018, 06:26 PM
I'm going to ask this question again.
Would we even be having this debate about the exit strategy if the home and away ends had been reversed when the stadium first opened?

BramleyMiller58
26-09-2018, 09:43 PM
Maybe not, would they have hold us back then ?

mellowmiller
27-09-2018, 05:21 PM
Maybe not, would they have hold us back then ?

What I meant was that 8000-9000 home fans would leave down New York Way and approximately 2500 away fans would exit via Don Street with a good proportion of them heading towards the station.
I know this wouldn't be ideal either but at least it would be less of a crush on Don Street and coaches could be lined up outside the police station and leave via Westgate.

caytonmiller
27-09-2018, 06:26 PM
From the responses on here I guess it would be the best option to remove all the barrier's. Detain the home fans for 15 minutes. Let the away fans leave the ground to coach/train station.. then let the home fans leave... Would solve all the problems mentioned above and I'm sure nobody would complain due to safety.

Ok it would restrict me from being able to leave the carpark from 30 minutes to 45 minutes but hey. It's a price I'm willing to pay..