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crashbang
05-10-2018, 10:28 PM
The snow flakes don't want fracking . Wind turbines. Nuclear. Fossil fuels.
Just where do they want their leccy from?

millmoormagic
05-10-2018, 11:04 PM
The thick folks want fracking, where do they think the by products are going to go???

monty_rhodes
06-10-2018, 04:51 AM
Prisoners, asylum seekers and the unemployed on treadmills driving turbines may be a part solution?

WanChaiMiller
06-10-2018, 05:10 AM
Prisoners, asylum seekers and the unemployed on treadmills driving turbines may be a part solution?

Punkah wallahs!!

monty_rhodes
06-10-2018, 06:19 AM
Punkah wallahs!!

Exactly. It is also not widely appreciated that global warming could assist the emergence of a northern European empire based (like Cnut's) on Britain and Scandinavia.

great_fire
06-10-2018, 12:29 PM
I think they do want wind turbines, even though they're ugly and chop a lot of birds up.

Meanwhile China is building new coal-fired power stations so it's pretty pointless.

millmoormagic
06-10-2018, 12:40 PM
Wind turbines sited correctly and managed properly don't have a major effect on birdlife, particularly offshore farms, the majority of birds can actually see things you know!!

https://www.carbonbrief.org/bird-death-and-wind-turbines-a-look-at-the-evidence

frogmiller
06-10-2018, 01:50 PM
They're proposing a wind farm in our village. Just 6 turbines but 6 too many for me. France is 4 times the size of Britain with masses of land unhabbited.
I will be voting against it at the time but the other 14 councillors just see it as a cash cow so like the 700k investment in a village hall with a capacity of 250 people when there are only 600 year round habitants I'll be on the losing side of this vote as well.

great_fire
06-10-2018, 02:22 PM
Wind turbines sited correctly and managed properly don't have a major effect on birdlife, particularly offshore farms, the majority of birds can actually see things you know!!

https://www.carbonbrief.org/bird-death-and-wind-turbines-a-look-at-the-evidence

They are ugly though.

Prince Charles would be calling them carbuncles if he wasn't an eco-nut, the big-eared old hypocrite.

sawmiller
06-10-2018, 02:24 PM
Odd how folk seem okay with pylons though...

great_fire
06-10-2018, 03:16 PM
They could have put the lines underground like they have in some countries, bit late now though.

WanChaiMiller
06-10-2018, 03:55 PM
I think they do want wind turbines, even though they're ugly and chop a lot of birds up.

Meanwhile China is building new coal-fired power stations so it's pretty pointless.

Yet China spend more that US and EU put together on renewable and have the biggest proportion of electricity generated from renewable of any country.

WanChaiMiller
06-10-2018, 03:57 PM
They're proposing a wind farm in our village. Just 6 turbines but 6 too many for me. France is 4 times the size of Britain with masses of land unhabbited.
I will be voting against it at the time but the other 14 councillors just see it as a cash cow so like the 700k investment in a village hall with a capacity of 250 people when there are only 600 year round habitants I'll be on the losing side of this vote as well.

This is the problem. Not on my doorstep.

frogmiller
06-10-2018, 04:21 PM
This is the problem. Not on my doorstep.

To a degree but if there is land not too far away that can fit 15 turbines as apposed to 6 and doesn't have the need to dig up roads and cross a river to lay the 18 km of cable then I could agree.

The maps of the places where the turbines can be constructed are very interesting. They include the flight paths of milatary aircraft the proximity to housing, roads and the likes.
The land owners are ones who gain most for the installation of the turbines. If there are 10 land owners and the majority agree to the installation it is only the ones who voted for that get the finacial rewards. If one of those land owners is the Mayor and in a meeting the other site which would have a better financial gain for the village was voted down then I don't think that it is right for anyone to influence the decision..
NIMBY is a word here which is being used to pressurise the people who will have to look at these things and listen to them then it's a bit like saying I'm all right Jack.
Either way to chase a sum of 6-8k per year for the village and upset a few people as apposed to 18-20k that will upset less people and cause much less distruction in laying of the cables needed by 12 km then I know which makes sense.

millmoormagic
06-10-2018, 04:31 PM
As ever we need to have variety in our electricity generation. Maybe we should be looking at a community based idea where folk have the option of cheap solar power installation....get that on most roofs and we're all not so reliant on large scale generation.
What about localised wind turbines to work in conjunction with the solar power? The technology is coming on leaps and bounds, it just requires political will.

KerrAvon
06-10-2018, 04:35 PM
The problem with windpower is not how the turbines look or with 'political will'. It's with the fact that sometimes it isn't very windy. The same principle applies to solar. Renewable power has its place, but until there is an answer to how the country would get thorugh several weeks of still and overcast weather in mid-winter (which is by no means unusual) it isn't the answer.

millmoormagic
06-10-2018, 04:42 PM
The problem with windpower is not how the turbines look or with 'political will'. It's with the fact that sometimes it isn't very windy. The same principle applies to solar. Renewable power has its place, but until there is an answer to how the country would get thorugh several weeks of still and overcast weather in mid-winter (which is by no means unusual) it isn't the answer.

That's why i stated 'Variety' and making it accessible to all, we have the technology, even smaller amounts of generation will ease the burden on the national grid as a whole.

WanChaiMiller
06-10-2018, 05:09 PM
I know nothing about this, so it may be dumb. But, could every house have a battery store charged by a solar panel with back up from the national grid. How long / could, say, an existing fully charged car battery run a house?

Its just a question??

millmoormagic
06-10-2018, 05:15 PM
I know nothing about this, so it may be dumb. But, could every house have a battery store charged by a solar panel with back up from the national grid. How long / could, say, an existing fully charged car battery run a house?

Its just a question??

Certainly an option, as i've said, technology is moving at a rapid pace, particularly regarding battery power, when we've all got electric cars, and that is plugged in when we're home, maybe the charge left can be used when we need it, in the evening, and then charged up when we're sleeping, again, allowing the national grid to easily cope at peak times...

WanChaiMiller
06-10-2018, 05:19 PM
China has just experimenting with smart roads. Its built on solar panels and, among many other things, has the ability to charge electric vehicles as they move over it.

China sells more electric vehicles than the rest of the world put together. Ford has their electric powered transit van factory in China. A guy I know has be transfered over to work on the project.

sawmiller
06-10-2018, 05:22 PM
The problem with windpower is not how the turbines look or with 'political will'. It's with the fact that sometimes it isn't very windy. The same principle applies to solar. Renewable power has its place, but until there is an answer to how the country would get thorugh several weeks of still and overcast weather in mid-winter (which is by no means unusual) it isn't the answer.

several weeks of still weather in winter? really? This summer has been exceptional - nothing like it for decades. But winter? Even in the Vale of York where my stepson lives, fog unbroken for several weeks - I'll ask him, but suspect I know what the answer will be already...

KerrAvon
07-10-2018, 07:53 AM
That's why i stated 'Variety' and making it accessible to all, we have the technology, even smaller amounts of generation will ease the burden on the national grid as a whole.It’s the implications of variety that is the issue. If you have a system in which you plan for 20% of the country’s power needs to come from solar and wind, then you have to address the fact that it isn’t always sunny and windy, which means that you need 20% excess capacity in the non-renewable part of the mix. Either that or you increase the size of the country’ candle making industry.

Having a large amount of excess capacity in the non-renewable part of the mix lying around is very expensive and the cost will have to be met by someone.

As you increase the % that you wish to generate from renewables the problem becomes more acute.

KerrAvon
07-10-2018, 07:54 AM
Certainly an option, as i've said, technology is moving at a rapid pace, particularly regarding battery power, when we've all got electric cars, and that is plugged in when we're home, maybe the charge left can be used when we need it, in the evening, and then charged up when we're sleeping, again, allowing the national grid to easily cope at peak times...It certainly isn’t an option. The size and cost of the batteries that would be required is prohibitive. The UK government is putting money into battery technology research, but it is impossible to get around the basic physics of the issue.

You can’t use solar power to charge anything up while you are sleeping – unless you are nocturnal. That is the real issue with solar – it is at its most abundant on sunny summer days – exactly when demand for electricity is at its lowest. You could use wind overnight – if it’s windy. You may not be getting much sleeping done if you have the localised wind turbines that you mentioned in post 15, however – an issue with wind turbines is the noise that they can create.

KerrAvon
07-10-2018, 07:57 AM
several weeks of still weather in winter? really? This summer has been exceptional - nothing like it for decades. But winter? Even in the Vale of York where my stepson lives, fog unbroken for several weeks - I'll ask him, but suspect I know what the answer will be already...I imagine that your stepson has told you that the Vale of York is notoriously fog prone? It is, because of its geography – a bowl shaped area of land with several water sources.

The fact remains that overcast still weather in winter – when demand for electricity is at its highest – will create terrible problems for a power system that relies heavily on solar and wind - exceptional weather would create exceptional problems, but normal weather is more than capable of providing problems too. That is where fracking and the OP come in. We are potentially sitting upon an abundant source of energy.

millmoormagic
07-10-2018, 09:24 AM
It certainly isn’t an option. The size and cost of the batteries that would be required is prohibitive. The UK government is putting money into battery technology research, but it is impossible to get around the basic physics of the issue.

You can’t use solar power to charge anything up while you are sleeping – unless you are nocturnal. That is the real issue with solar – it is at its most abundant on sunny summer days – exactly when demand for electricity is at its lowest. You could use wind overnight – if it’s windy. You may not be getting much sleeping done if you have the localised wind turbines that you mentioned in post 15, however – an issue with wind turbines is the noise that they can create.

Of course it's an option, as i've stated technology is coming on leaps and bounds, and who mentioned using solar while sleeping, i stated you could charge the car battery(which you've already depleted running it for the house in the evening) using national grid power, off peak, while sleeping....

As for "sitting on an abundant source of energy" yeh, we are, they call it coal, millions of tons of it are still under our feet, but you know what, i for one want us to stop burning fossil fuels, we're killing the planet, we need to use cleaner methods of power generation, and every little bit helps, even if it is a bit cloudy and still some days, and the turbine might by a bit noisy, time for you to get in the modern world kerr.

sawmiller
07-10-2018, 09:25 AM
Yes I know all about winter fog as I used to live there But not still for several weeks I can assure you that - several days perhaps. The unresolved issue with fracking is twofold - firstly it is not guaranteed to be safe enough either during or once the operation has left site - still too many unanswered questions and problems - and secondly all fossil feels are finite - what are we going to do with our current supplies when they suddenly run out? we need to diversify now - including ways of reducing as far as we can our energy consumption. There is a much wider debate and issue which the OP did not mention - hmmm....🤫

crashbang
07-10-2018, 08:42 PM
We need to frack.
Makes sense to me.
Fk the future.

KerrAvon
07-10-2018, 09:23 PM
Of course it's an option, as i've stated technology is coming on leaps and bounds, and who mentioned using solar while sleeping, i stated you could charge the car battery(which you've already depleted running it for the house in the evening) using national grid power, off peak, while sleeping....

As for "sitting on an abundant source of energy" yeh, we are, they call it coal, millions of tons of it are still under our feet, but you know what, i for one want us to stop burning fossil fuels, we're killing the planet, we need to use cleaner methods of power generation, and every little bit helps, even if it is a bit cloudy and still some days, and the turbine might by a bit noisy, time for you to get in the modern world kerr.‘A bit cloudy’ and ‘a bit noisy’. I see that you are squeezing your eyes tightly shut, whilst sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘la la la’ rather than facing up to the issues here.

You say the technology is there for us all to have batteries in our house, whereas I say it doesn’t… It seems to me that chasing around in circles on the issue is a bit pointless, so, for the sake of argument, let’s accept that you are right. That surely immediately raises three questions, doesn’t it?

1. If the technology for home battery storage exists, why isn’t it being installed across the country as we speak?

2. Guessing for a moment that you will have some corporate conspiracy theory to explain question 1 away, why have neither the Green Party nor the Labour Party in its recent environmental pronouncement proposed your battery in the home solution?

3. Assuming that you answer to question 3 is that the politicians lack your insight into the issue, why have you not set up a business - you could call it the Millmoor Magic Battery Company (that works on more than one level) to carry out installation of the technology you say exists? You could be first into the market and make your millions (but don’t take your company public and allow it to employ more than 249 people or you would risk a future Labour government seizing 10% of it).

Nobody is proposing a future use for coal for electricity generation. It’s dirty and clunky. But even the Green Party - who are rather more committed to renewables than any other party - accept that they would have to retain the capacity to use gas for electricity generation on days when renewables don’t cut it, which takes us back to the OP.

KerrAvon
07-10-2018, 09:28 PM
Yes I know all about winter fog as I used to live there But not still for several weeks I can assure you that - several days perhaps. The unresolved issue with fracking is twofold - firstly it is not guaranteed to be safe enough either during or once the operation has left site - still too many unanswered questions and problems - and secondly all fossil feels are finite - what are we going to do with our current supplies when they suddenly run out? we need to diversify now - including ways of reducing as far as we can our energy consumption. There is a much wider debate and issue which the OP did not mention - hmmm....��If you have lived in the Vale of York and are aware of how foggy it gets, why were you making enquiries of your step son?

Fracking has been heavily used in the USA - possibly the most litigious country in the world. I've not heard of any class actions arising out it being unsafe.

Yes, we do need to address climate change and the fact that fossil fuels are finite. My point is that simply building wind turbines and covering rooves and fields with solar panels isn’t an answer.

BramleyMiller58
07-10-2018, 10:24 PM
I was "conned" into Solar Panels (too many cowboys)
Currently with the Ombudsman

They're not as good as advertised
Only have a 25 year (decreasing from day 1) life

Understand they're not very environmentally friendly to manufacture

Fracking ?
TBH wouldn't want it in my back yard (hypocrite ?)

However we're surrounded by sea which creates tides and offshore winds that would turn turbines

Still think that, in years to come, the coal reserves will be used (where they are) to produce the steam to turn the turbines

KerrAvon
08-10-2018, 06:22 AM
What has been the problem, Bramley? I ask as I have been considering having them installed on my house.

gm_gm
08-10-2018, 07:30 AM
I was "conned" into Solar Panels (too many cowboys)
Currently with the Ombudsman

They're not as good as advertised
Only have a 25 year (decreasing from day 1) life

Understand they're not very environmentally friendly to manufacture

Fracking ?
TBH wouldn't want it in my back yard (hypocrite ?)

However we're surrounded by sea which creates tides and offshore winds that would turn turbines

Still think that, in years to come, the coal reserves will be used (where they are) to produce the steam to turn the turbines

This...

Also you don't own the panels as they are leased so when you sell you house it causes all sorts of issues as you need the providers consent

sawmiller
08-10-2018, 08:48 AM
This...

Also you don't own the panels as they are leased so when you sell you house it causes all sorts of issues as you need the providers consent

You can own panels if you have capital and plan to stay long enough

frogmiller
08-10-2018, 09:26 AM
What has been the problem, Bramley? I ask as I have been considering having them installed on my house.

If you can pay out up front then do so.

Make sure you get the warranty from the manufacturers of the parts. Don't rely on the company that installs them. Some parts are not covered for the length of time the system warranty is for.

Brin
08-10-2018, 10:32 AM
What has been the problem, Bramley? I ask as I have been considering having them installed on my house.

KA, I too have considered having solar panels installed. What I see as a concern is the way they are attached through your roof tiles and attached to the roof trusses. What are the weight of these panels? Can it cause roof sag in say 20 years? That would be very costly if this occurred.

Do they drill through roof trusses or strap them to a truss?

All the hype I previously heard and still see and hear about creating your own electricity and slashing your electric bill by many many pounds, has yet to be proven because some folk I know have yet to see anything and they've had them panels installed for years.

When these panels break down and become not functional after years of use, will the Government, who subsidised their installation, provide some kind of compensation for their removal and cover any repair costs?

Yes it's great to go green for the planet's sake with solar panels but at what future cost to the average householder?

Brin
08-10-2018, 10:47 AM
Just had a look into this. Apparently, just about every solar installation will involve giant screws being drilled through your rafters/trusses.

A giant screw that goes right through so what damage/weakness can this cause in future years



It's a no from me.

millavanilla
08-10-2018, 11:11 AM
We shall go forward..
We shall invent and innovate..
Our intelligence shall be inherited..
By the ones who invented nothing..
Hence the demise of fish and chips..
And the irreversible rise of tikka...
Must admit though..i do like a nice madras...
Anyway we're a few hundred years away from all that yet..

rolymiller
08-10-2018, 11:17 AM
We need to frack.
Makes sense to me.
Fk the future.

I take it you have no grand kids then...

BramleyMiller58
08-10-2018, 11:34 AM
What has been the problem, Bramley? I ask as I have been considering having them installed on my house.

I always said to Mrs BM58 that as we are just off south facing then the roof was an opportunity to pay something back to the planet but didn't want it to cost me anything so when the figures they gave for "payback" suggested a net cost to me of £2:06 per month over the 10 year period of the loan (@ gm_gm I do own them) I thought go for it

What they didn't say was that the payback were calculated over the 25 year "life" of the panels not the loan period so actual costs are a lot more.

FIT payments are less than they documented & we found a minimal decrease in Electric bills and we've a 16 panel system


Was arguing with the installers (My Planet) who then went "bust" so onto the Ombudsman who is talking to the loan provider, who apparently have responsibility, they made their first offer which I've rejected


@ Brin - Yup they lift your tiles and screw into the roof trusses, they not supposed to go through the felting but, guess what !

zouch
08-10-2018, 04:57 PM
Todays announcement by the IPCC suggest we have twelve years left to turn the tide. Here is an interesting webinar which reflects the scale of task in order to meet the Paris climate accord agreement
https://www.iema.net/event-reports/2017/03/13/climate-change-how-informed-hope-and-action-can-trump-despair/

it is still relevant today but the task just got harder.

gm_gm
08-10-2018, 05:52 PM
You can own panels if you have capital and plan to stay long enough

You can but most people cant afford it, you would need insurance and maintenance contracts

millmoormagic
08-10-2018, 08:22 PM
‘A bit cloudy’ and ‘a bit noisy’. I see that you are squeezing your eyes tightly shut, whilst sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘la la la’ rather than facing up to the issues here.

You say the technology is there for us all to have batteries in our house, whereas I say it doesn’t… It seems to me that chasing around in circles on the issue is a bit pointless, so, for the sake of argument, let’s accept that you are right. That surely immediately raises three questions, doesn’t it?

1. If the technology for home battery storage exists, why isn’t it being installed across the country as we speak?

2. Guessing for a moment that you will have some corporate conspiracy theory to explain question 1 away, why have neither the Green Party nor the Labour Party in its recent environmental pronouncement proposed your battery in the home solution?

3. Assuming that you answer to question 3 is that the politicians lack your insight into the issue, why have you not set up a business - you could call it the Millmoor Magic Battery Company (that works on more than one level) to carry out installation of the technology you say exists? You could be first into the market and make your millions (but don’t take your company public and allow it to employ more than 249 people or you would risk a future Labour government seizing 10% of it).

Nobody is proposing a future use for coal for electricity generation. It’s dirty and clunky. But even the Green Party - who are rather more committed to renewables than any other party - accept that they would have to retain the capacity to use gas for electricity generation on days when renewables don’t cut it, which takes us back to the OP.

You couldn't be more condescending if you tried, but heyho, can't really do owt about rude folk can yer...

Anyway, you know the battery technology that you say isn't there, re-read my post, why not use the battery in the electric car as a power source??? Or can't you get your head around that idea??

No conspiracy theory from me, to be honest with your reply I'm chuckling because you really don't like being proved wrong do you, straight on the offensive with smart arris replies, I get under your skin don't i, and I love that to be honest.

Tell you what, why don't you form a company for highbrowed condes ending media posts, you're brilliant at it.

Nobody is proposing using coal, hmmmm, I didn't propose charging batteries at night using solar power bit that didn't stop your smart comment back did it??

You really do need to accept that sometimes you're wrong fella.

millmoormagic
08-10-2018, 09:09 PM
Anyone seen the news today, 12 years to make an impact to stop global warming, keep believing the bull**** about fossil fuels, fracking is not the answer, you're just feeding the greed for cheap energy without a thought for the local, and national, and international environment..

We really do need to accept that we need the alternative right now.

great_fire
08-10-2018, 09:40 PM
Is that like "3 months to save the NHS"?

You don't believe that nonsense surely?

Just Soros and his band of globalists trying to control us.

John2
08-10-2018, 10:14 PM
You say the technology is there for us all to have batteries in our house, whereas I say it doesn’t… It seems to me that chasing around in circles on the issue is a bit pointless, so, for the sake of argument, let’s accept that you are right. That surely immediately raises three questions, doesn’t it?

1. If the technology for home battery storage exists, why isn’t it being installed across the country as we speak?

I agree about the current limitations of renewables and the need for non renewable supplemental supply, I'm yet to even be convinced fracking is that bad, but I think the technological breakthroughs are a lot closer than you realise.

I converted a campervan and put 530w of solar panels on the roof and bought 2x130ah AGM leisure batteries (about 2.5kw usable capacity) and a 2.5kw inverter to give me mains voltage. I'm so impressed by solar technology. I've got so much solar in the summer that I can run an air conditioner unit and power tools, but even living in it while skiing in the winter I never got the batteries below 80% - I was so impressed by what they were generating, that was running a diesel heater with electric fan and glow plugs a lot, lights, laptop, fridge, speakers, etc. For next winter skiing I've added a microwave grill and electric water heater for showers and will be taking a PS4, screen and sound system such is my confidence in the solar.

Solar has become so cheap these days, my 265w panels were less than £100 each.

The average household uses 3940kw per year, 1kw of panel will yield 700 to 900kw per year. That means an average home needs 4.37kw to 5.63kw worth of panels to be self sufficient if storage wasn't an issue.

Bimble solar right now are selling 250w panels for £85 each, that means you can get 5.75kw of panels for £1,955, the main cost beyond that is probably 2 or 3 days of labour for fitting if you have the space.

The rate at which the cost of solar panels has fallen is staggering, but what it means is that the biggest barrier to generating solar for a household isn't what they cost, it's how much space they take. Enough surplus of panels and you can power an entire household even on the bleakest days of winter and just have an incredible excess the rest of the time (handy for things like air conditioning). Solar farms are the answer where there isn't enough space on someone's roof.

Battery technology is on the cusp of becoming viable to complement the solar panels. Tesla have invested in building one of the biggest buildings in the world, bringing economies of scale to battery technology, with good reason to think a new generation of home battery technologies is just around the corner.

Batteries aren't the only way of storing that energy, with enough solar you could also heat a household or water tank during the day when the sun is shining and have them switch off when the grid isn't generating that surplus.

That said, right now you can buy a Tesla Powerwall which has a 13.5kw capacity. It's £6,000 but that should come down a lot.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

The solar in my van has given me such a taste of the future, because it made me realise the answer is just having lots and lots of low cost solar panels, they last for decades with such little maintenance too.

Once you have that surplus, you just need households to have enough battery power to be topped up during the day time, and keep going to the next day with just a little cushion.

We already have the technology to do that, less than £1,000 worth of the batteries I use in my van would suffice as long as the household wasn't using electricity for any sort of heating.

I can honestly say if I was building a house right now or lived in a suitable property I'd have the roof covered with solar, maybe some in the garden, and I'd have a bank of leisure batteries and I'd run the electrics entirely off grid with a mains switch for if ever it was needed as a backup.

I'm really optimistic we're heading to an exciting future of surplus electricity from various renewable resources, but my position isn't an environmental one, its a purely economic one. I quite like nuclear, but I'm starting to think building a new one now will be obsolete by the time it's finished.

millmoormagic
09-10-2018, 09:25 AM
Is that like "3 months to save the NHS"?

You don't believe that nonsense surely?

Just Soros and his band of globalists trying to control us.

Keep the blinkers on, as ever, always wanting to turn things into a political mash up, plainly many experts and scientists who are much more qualified than you or me believe this as fact.

rolymiller
09-10-2018, 01:16 PM
Only one person lives on planet greatfire so there is no problem for him. The problem that a lot of people don't realise is that there is a tipping point at which there is no return for human beings to sort the problem out. At a certain earth temperature there is no way back. I can't remember what this is but it is only a matter of a few degrees c away from what it is now. What happens at the tipping point is that temps start to sp iral out of control in a short space of time meaning nothing can be do ne to reverse them. Scientists thunk this happened onvenus where temps are far t oo got for life and gases don't support life. Some scientists like lovelock think it is already too late which is pretty scary

It's ok for the likes of crashbang to say I don't care about the future and gfir e to say it's all a con. Some of us have family and grand kids who are gonna have to try their best to sort this messout. It dunt look as though it will be pretty even if they can.

As usual one of remain reasons whynowt is seriouslybeen d one is because money talks for the wealthy. Gfires pal Mr trump, the US being the biggest contributor to greenhouse gases, won't even attend summits on the problem now.

rolymiller
09-10-2018, 01:58 PM
Soz about the typos on the last post by the way, it's our lasses tablet i used with its daft predictive text!

great_fire
09-10-2018, 03:59 PM
So you just read a newspaper and take it all as absolute fact?

That's not very smart is it?

millmoormagic
09-10-2018, 04:52 PM
So you just read a newspaper and take it all as absolute fact?

That's not very smart is it?

Once again a whoosh moment from the right wing nutjobs, plainly a report from scientists from the UN is gunna get publicity in newspapers, what medium the report is published in makes no difference to the actual report, does it?? Gf, still thinks the world is flat.....it's pathetic and I'm constantly shaking my head at these folk who quite happily ignore the truth when it doesn't suit their politics.

rolymiller
09-10-2018, 04:52 PM
Where did I say I got the info from a newspaper? There are plenty of scientific books about it.

ragingpup
09-10-2018, 05:14 PM
So you just read a newspaper and take it all as absolute fact?

That's not very smart is it?


Fair point GF. But it is reliably reported that 97% of climate experts (https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus.htm) agree that human activity is causing global warming.

Where do you get your counter evidence that there is no effect on global warming by human activities?

ragingpup
09-10-2018, 06:56 PM
For any of us that accept that there may well be a serious problem with global warming, and that we should try and do something about it, but not sure what, this article is quite straightforward with simple practical ideas, some discussed in good depth above in this thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/08/climate-change-what-you-can-do-campaigning-installing-insulation-solar-panels?CMP=fb_gu

great_fire
09-10-2018, 08:40 PM
Where did I say I got the info from a newspaper? There are plenty of scientific books about it.

Scientists whose jobs depend on us believing climate change is man-made when it almost certainly isn't.

How did men create those ice ages we went through exactly?

millmoormagic
09-10-2018, 09:03 PM
Scientists whose jobs depend on us believing climate change is man-made when it almost certainly isn't.

How did men create those ice ages we went through exactly?

Wow, just how folk can be so blinkered and ignorant is beyond me considering the overwhelming evidence suggesting they're wrong...
10862
10863

John2
09-10-2018, 09:42 PM
Scientists whose jobs depend on us believing climate change is man-made when it almost certainly isn't.

How did men create those ice ages we went through exactly?

This is such a primitive argument and highlights how little you understand what you're talking about.

Climate change has been a regular occurrence throughout the earth's history, however historically it has taken millennia.

What we are seeing now is unprecedented, changes that historically took many thousands of years are happening in 100, the rate of change has huge implications.

Those people who have children or grandchildren and actively don't care about global warming despite overwhelming evidence it is occurring are going to be remembered by their future generations with contempt. Social attitudes are powerful things which are strongly shaped with the passage of time.

Unlike old people unintentionally using out of date language without meaning to offend (forgivable), being fully aware of but ignoring the overwhelming evidence of what is happening to our planet is really rather appalling and unforgivable. What a vile mentality towards future generations who have to live through the consequences.

What a horrific legacy, yet such bizarre pride in ignorance and not caring. What have you got to lose by listening to scientists (who can't just make things up to keep their job... they provide overwhelming peer-reviewed evidence)? Why don't you care at all about future generations?

KerrAvon
09-10-2018, 09:48 PM
John, I suspect I will be called out for pedantic, but I have to point out the terminology error in your post. When you are talking about the average household electricity consumption you mean kWh not kW. To say otherwise is akin to saying that the distance from Bristol to Rotherham is 70mph.

The calculation that you have made concerning the amount of solar panelling you need to meet the energy consumption of your average house is fundamentally flawed for two reasons. Firstly a 1kW panel might well yield 700 to 900kW per year, but it won’t do that at a constant rate through the year. In Rotherham in June, daylength peaks at about 17 hours whilst in December it will reach around 6 hours and 10 minutes. That is bad enough, but then you get onto the second reason, which is that the demand for electricity is at its lowest in June and peaks in the winter. That means that you are going to need an awful lot more panelling than you calculate to meet winter demand or you ae going to have a lot of non-renewable capacity doing nothing during the summer. That is the point that I am making – solar is useful, but is not a solution, because it is good at producing energy when it is not needed.

A third problem with your calculation is that you assume that it is possible to utilise 100% of the electricity produced by your panel. You can’t – there are conversion losses, a symptom of which is that inverters get warm.

Everybody is pursuing the better battery at the moment, but physics limits what can be achieved. That’s why electric cars are barely a practical proposition for anyone doing more than a local commute - the fact is that diesel or petrol carries more energy per kg than any battery – and the batteries still weigh the same even when they have been discharged.

As for battery power – I haven’t dug out your skiing posts, but if memory serves me correctly – you went late season? I would be interested to hear how you get on if you travel in January. In addition, I am not sure whether you were parked at resort level or in a valley. If you were at resort level, you would probably be at around 6000 feet above sea level – where sunlight is far more energetic than a couple of hundred feet above sea level, which would be typical in the UK. I would be surprise if you don’t wear sun lotion when skiing – I certainly have to.

If you do go in January, be very careful about how low you run your batteries. You will be aware that completely running them down shortens their already limited life span.

Don’t get me wrong – I think solar has its place, but it is not the panacea that it is (mis)sold to be. The Green Party largely reject a battery based solution to the uneven output issue and go for using electricity to produce hydrogen when the sun is shining or storing the energy as heat. I don’t know if either is a practical proposition , but I suspect both make more sense than a large battery approach.

To get back to the OP, I too am not convinced that there is an unacceptable risk associated with fracking. If - as even the Green Party accept - there has to be a reliable back up for when renewables don’t deliver then gas is the only real option. Wouldn’t we be better off producing it locally and, perhaps, coupling it with carbon capture technology rather than shipping it from Qatar?

great_fire
09-10-2018, 09:49 PM
You lot really would believe anything.

The people in power would love everyone to be such unquestioning dupes.

It's a money-making scam/ globalist power grab.

millmoormagic
09-10-2018, 09:56 PM
You lot really would believe anything.

The people in power would love everyone to be such unquestioning dupes.

It's a money-making scam/ globalist power grab.

You really do need help....

millmoormagic
09-10-2018, 09:59 PM
John, I suspect I will be called out for pedantic, but I have to point out the terminology error in your post. When you are talking about the average household electricity consumption you mean kWh not kW. To say otherwise is akin to saying that the distance from Bristol to Rotherham is 70mph.

The calculation that you have made concerning the amount of solar panelling you need to meet the energy consumption of your average house is fundamentally flawed for two reasons. Firstly a 1kW panel might well yield 700 to 900kW per year, but it won’t do that at a constant rate through the year. In Rotherham in June, daylength peaks at about 17 hours whilst in December it will reach around 6 hours and 10 minutes. That is bad enough, but then you get onto the second reason, which is that the demand for electricity is at its lowest in June and peaks in the winter. That means that you are going to need an awful lot more panelling than you calculate to meet winter demand or you ae going to have a lot of non-renewable capacity doing nothing during the summer. That is the point that I am making – solar is useful, but is not a solution, because it is good at producing energy when it is not needed.

A third problem with your calculation is that you assume that it is possible to utilise 100% of the electricity produced by your panel. You can’t – there are conversion losses, a symptom of which is that inverters get warm.

Everybody is pursuing the better battery at the moment, but physics limits what can be achieved. That’s why electric cars are barely a practical proposition for anyone doing more than a local commute - the fact is that diesel or petrol carries more energy per kg than any battery – and the batteries still weigh the same even when they have been discharged.

As for battery power – I haven’t dug out your skiing posts, but if memory serves me correctly – you went late season? I would be interested to hear how you get on if you travel in January. In addition, I am not sure whether you were parked at resort level or in a valley. If you were at resort level, you would probably be at around 6000 feet above sea level – where sunlight is far more energetic than a couple of hundred feet above sea level, which would be typical in the UK. I would be surprise if you don’t wear sun lotion when skiing – I certainly have to.

If you do go in January, be very careful about how low you run your batteries. You will be aware that completely running them down shortens their already limited life span.

Don’t get me wrong – I think solar has its place, but it is not the panacea that it is (mis)sold to be. The Green Party largely reject a battery based solution to the uneven output issue and go for using electricity to produce hydrogen when the sun is shining or storing the energy as heat. I don’t know if either is a practical proposition , but I suspect both make more sense than a large battery approach.

To get back to the OP, I too am not convinced that there is an unacceptable risk associated with fracking. If - as even the Green Party accept - there has to be a reliable back up for when renewables don’t deliver then gas is the only real option. Wouldn’t we be better off producing it locally and, perhaps, coupling it with carbon capture technology rather than shipping it from Qatar?

Waffle waffle waffle waffle, spent ages writing that waffle mate didn't yer, please stop trying to be better than everyone and just post what you think...

KerrAvon
09-10-2018, 10:02 PM
As usual one of remain reasons whynowt is seriouslybeen d one is because money talks for the wealthy. Gfires pal Mr trump, the US being the biggest contributor to greenhouse gases, won't even attend summits on the problem now.That depends upon how you define wealthy. Earlier this year, you explained that your view of having enough money included being able to take a decent holiday every year (I paraphrase, but it was something like that) - in other words a strictly unnecessary use of fossil fuels (unless you meant a walking holiday based at your home). That's the real problem, which is that dealing with climate change means having a significant impact upon what people expect for their lives. The announcement yesterday indicated that we should greatly reduce or curtail our meat consumption - how many people will readily buy into that do you think?

In other words, the real problem is democracy. Given the impact that actually doing something about climate change will have as opposed to simply pontificating about it means that it is unlikely that any democratic government will be able to act on it to any significant degree. People will vote for beef and Benidorm and think that somebody else will sort out climate change.

great_fire
09-10-2018, 10:03 PM
Of course climate scientists are going to say it's man-made and getting worse, their jobs depend on it.

It's like anti-racism/ Islamophobia campaign groups, they're always going to say racism/ Islamophobia is getting worse, if they said the opposite the government would say "well we don't need you anymore" and pull their funding.

When I was growing up these "scientists" were saying we were heading for a new ice age. Then it became clear that was happening so it became "global warming" then that didn't happen so it was changed to "climate change" to cover all the bases.

Bur the Earth has always warmed up and cooled off, before we were even on the planet.

KerrAvon
09-10-2018, 10:13 PM
Waffle waffle waffle waffle, spent ages writing that waffle mate didn't yer, please stop trying to be better than everyone and just post what you think...I think that you are thick, but don't have the self awareness to realise it.

I am very sorry for saying that, but you insisted and maybe it was time for someone to tell you.

John2
09-10-2018, 11:55 PM
John, I suspect I will be called out for pedantic, but I have to point out the terminology error in your post. When you are talking about the average household electricity consumption you mean kWh not kW. To say otherwise is akin to saying that the distance from Bristol to Rotherham is 70mph.

The calculation that you have made concerning the amount of solar panelling you need to meet the energy consumption of your average house is fundamentally flawed for two reasons. Firstly a 1kW panel might well yield 700 to 900kW per year, but it won’t do that at a constant rate through the year. In Rotherham in June, daylength peaks at about 17 hours whilst in December it will reach around 6 hours and 10 minutes. That is bad enough, but then you get onto the second reason, which is that the demand for electricity is at its lowest in June and peaks in the winter. That means that you are going to need an awful lot more panelling than you calculate to meet winter demand or you ae going to have a lot of non-renewable capacity doing nothing during the summer. That is the point that I am making – solar is useful, but is not a solution, because it is good at producing energy when it is not needed.

Forgive me, my original message was unclear.

I wasn't trying to say 5.75kw of panels would be sufficient, and my using such a calculation was misleading and confused the point I was trying to make. I was just trying to give a rough frame of reference, and was assuming perfect storage.

The point I was making was, even if solar is 200% better in summer than winter (there is 176% more daylight in longest day using your numbers), that's solve able with just having a high enough quantity of panels. Using that 5.75kw as the average and 200% better at peak (8.72kw) vs bottom (2.88kw), means you'd need double the number of solar panels used in my earlier numbers (11.5kw of solar panels per household) to get the average. That's £4k of panels for a household and lasting 30 years (solely panel cost of course).

If these numbers are off as the sun is even less strong in winter, and there are various inefficiencies, and demand is much higher, just add more panels. Heck, 23kw per household or more of panels if necessary to meet the winter demand. At 1.65sqm per 250w they barely make a dent in the thousands of sqm we have for every individual for farming if we've exhausted rooftop and other spaces.

If we build enough solar to meet demand in winter (and just encourage as much heating/washing machines/etc during daylight hours, make grid use hours out of daylight expensive - people will adjust their habits). We then have a massive massive surplus of electricity in the summer, which opens up a whole host of new opportunities.

When I visited Iceland I was stunned that the hot tub even in winter was heated by mains hot water and emptied for each use, with new water pumped in to retain the heat... this is the possibility of abundant renewable energy. Suddenly heated swimming pools, air conditioning, and many other luxuries become viable in the summer.

Beyond batteries, with surplus electricity you can generate hydrogen as fuel. Electricity is too expensive for this to be viable at the moment, but with a huge surplus in the summer you can create fuel for the winter months.

I'm cheating next ski season, I'll have a relay so I can charge the battery by running the engine, a bit like having mains to fall back on when needed, but I'm optimistic I won't need to use it.

John2
10-10-2018, 12:04 AM
Of course climate scientists are going to say it's man-made and getting worse, their jobs depend on it.


They don't just say it, they research to provide evidence to prove it. It's just that some people are way too dumb to understand the evidence and so stick their fingers in their ears and demonstrate their ignorance.

KerrAvon
10-10-2018, 04:30 AM
Iceland is a completely different kettle of fish. They have geothermal energy in abundance. It's a good thing they aren't trying to run their country on solar.

WanChaiMiller
10-10-2018, 05:37 AM
Kerr - do you think it would be a good thing if a solar battery system in every household could take say 30% of reliance off the national grid?

The reason I think its not happening quicker is because it will take shareholder profit off privatised utility companies.

ragingpup
10-10-2018, 06:38 AM
Of course climate scientists are going to say it's man-made and getting worse, their jobs depend on it.

It's like anti-racism/ Islamophobia campaign groups, they're always going to say racism/ Islamophobia is getting worse, if they said the opposite the government would say "well we don't need you anymore" and pull their funding.

When I was growing up these "scientists" were saying we were heading for a new ice age. Then it became clear that was happening so it became "global warming" then that didn't happen so it was changed to "climate change" to cover all the bases.

Bur the Earth has always warmed up and cooled off, before we were even on the planet.

Okies. I understand that the earth has always warmed up and cool off but usually this takes thousands/millions of year to move from one 'age' to another.

But how do you explain the graph that John posted?

Do you also dispute other scientific theories that, like human activity related global warming, have ceased to be debatable theories and instead become accepted scientific facts as scientists don't debate them anymore due to the evidence for the 'theory' being so overwhelming - gravity? evolution?

The very nature of science is to take a theory and try to disprove it, test it, look at objective evidence until all the scientists doing the testing agree that all evidence points to the theory being beyond doubt. That's how science works. Of course there will be some scientists that claim validation of a theory without due evidence but they are quickly argued down in the science community. And that's the point: 97% of scientists concerned with studying climate agree that human activity is changing the climate. That's a hell of a lot of scientists if you check out the link I posted earlier.

KerrAvon
10-10-2018, 07:31 AM
Kerr - do you think it would be a good thing if a solar battery system in every household could take say 30% of reliance off the national grid?

The reason I think its not happening quicker is because it will take shareholder profit off privatised utility companies.The money would be better spent making homes 30% more energy efficient, but, yes, there is a case for small scale solar, which is why I'm looking at it (though, sadly, it may involve cutting down a mature tree to the South East of my house).

I knew it would only be a matter of time before a big business conspiracy theory appeared - it's the nature of political debate on here - the Right blame immigrants for the ills of the world, whilst the Left blame the wealthy and big business. God forbid that anyone accepts a bit of personal responsibility.

How do you say the shareholders of utilities are blocking a more rapid spread of solar? There's money to be made in solar, as Bramley appears to have found to his cost. That by itself would attract operators to it, if there were much of a market.

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 07:59 AM
Don't disagree that everyone has to do their bit kerr. Some scientists are suggesting the only way we can sort the problems out is for human beings to live a more minimalist lifestyle. How would that sit with the wealthy do you think? How would that sit with you? Would you be willing to live that sort of lifestyle ? It would i effect mean we would be more equal economically. A sort of environmental socialism may be the only answer. I would argue if that is true socialism has always been the answer!

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 08:07 AM
Here's the idea

http://envirocivil.com/environment/how-minimalism-can-help-you-save-the-planet/

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 08:22 AM
I think the key is to reward people who act in an environmentally friendly way and punish those who don't e.g. Through the tax system etc. If you recycle you should get some sort of perk. Another way you could do it is by allocating carbon footprint to individuals and businesses and rewarding or punishing those who don't stay within them. Probably not easy to do granted but if things becomethat serious we would have to find a way to do it. I do think that th e way people live on this planet is going to change dramatically in the next 50 years or so. It may even start before I pop me own clogs. I amintrugued myself as to what is going to happen to solve the problems and a bit gutted i won't witness it. Of course it could be nowt is done and the human species is d oomed. As the song says these are the good times - well for some - it could be all downhill steeply from he re.

KerrAvon
10-10-2018, 08:23 AM
Don't disagree that everyone has to do their bit kerr. Some scientists are suggesting the only way we can sort the problems out is for human beings to live a more minimalist lifestyle. How would that sit with the wealthy do you think? How would that sit with you? Would you be willing to live that sort of lifestyle ? It would i effect mean we would be more equal economically. A sort of environmental socialism may be the only answer. I would argue if that is true socialism has always been the answer!Of course we would need to live a more minimalist lifestyle to avoid catastrophic climate change. That's the point I was making when I referred to your 'one decent holiday a year' assertion and pointing out that many people will vote for beef and Benidorm. Are you a meat eater perchance?

I should think the majority of the wealthy would view a reduction or change to their current lifestyles in much the same way
as the majority of the none wealthy. They wouldn't like it and would put on the same blinkers that gf is wearing.

Socialism certainly leads to more minimalist lifestyles - ask the Venezuelans. The only other Socialist angle is that I suspect that more minimalist lifestyles would have to be imposed upon people by increasingly less democratic governments in much the way that Socialist governments tend to become more autocratic as they impose their theology and diktats upon the reluctant people that they govern.

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 08:35 AM
Let's face it we all could consume less me included. I could live happily without beef and Benidorm and
a lot of other things. I live a fairly minimalistic lifestyle now but I accept i could do better. Some won't though e.g. Gfire who would accuse you of being fascist if you raised his taxes for not conforming to environmental policies. It wouldn't be easy to do because there are more gfires on this planet.

What a challenge for the human race. Let's hope there are still some bril!iant minds appearing on earth now. This is the generation to sort it and good luck to em.

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 08:49 AM
In a way we may all have have to knuckle down and accept the unacceptable it would be the equivalent of forcing down unpalatable medicine to cure our ailment. In a sense polit ical arguments would become irrelevant it would just be a case of follow the rules or we are all doomed. The problem is though that some would still see it as a political issue. It could be that we just end up all kicking the crap out of eAch other as we sail over the waterf all! A sad andpathetic end for the human race and maybe inevitable.

Im a cheery guy aren't i?😀 let's hope i have got this all wrong and gfire for inches right.

great_fire
10-10-2018, 09:14 AM
You're overestimating the effect that we can have on the planet.

It's egotistical really.

World kept turning before us and it will after us.

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 10:15 AM
It will gfire but maybe without humans. If we c ock it up as a race maybe we don't deserve to be here. Think the surviving species will be much better off without us.

millmoormagic
10-10-2018, 10:19 AM
I think that you are thick, but don't have the self awareness to realise it.

I am very sorry for saying that, but you insisted and maybe it was time for someone to tell you.

Haha, still chuckling here, don't be sorry fella, you've been consistently wound up the same thicko ��

John2
10-10-2018, 10:25 AM
Iceland is a completely different kettle of fish. They have geothermal energy in abundance. It's a good thing they aren't trying to run their country on solar.

I hope you didn't think I was trying to infer solar will make us like Iceland, I was trying to demonstrate that a surplus of energy can result in very different use cases becoming viable, nothing more.

zouch
10-10-2018, 11:00 AM
One of the tricks of climate change skeptics is to create confusion. The same things politicians do when trying to object to a truth. EG Putin, Bassir al assad (chemical warfare) etc etc there is enough plausibiity in the counter points to to sow the seed of doubt.
The science on CC is sound and compelling (see what Prof Brian Cox has to say on climate change)

The correlation between `CO2 and climate change is tracked in all previous Climate changes. The energy usage from the industrial revolution is the difference this time. The amount of CO2 (man made) as a result of Industrial revolution and the graphs show that this is off the scale. Ergo the unmistakable conclusion is that the rate of change is man made and has never been seen before in any climate change.

The issue here is that the solution is unpalatable and those offering the strongest defence to do nothing have vested interest, IE fossil fuel organisations (who incidentally are funding the deniers) Politicians cant make the solutions popular and risk losing votes (eg brexit) so when the world needs leadership politicians are more concerned about their own interests.

Changing to solar and wind is absolutely part of the answer but there needs to be an infrastructure to support renewables which at this moment is not there. We will require significant investment but the technology is close to matching the problem - it needs significant scaling up though. See what TESLA have done in Australia to combat their energy supply issues. It can be done.
i fear telling people to live a minimalist lifestyle wont work despite the logic, its like saying dont drink alcohol because it is bad for you.
Building zero carbon lifestyle changes will work far better. Not owning stuff but but buying services like transport and clothes ensures better carbon management and an end of life outcome yet it doesn't compromise our lifestyle choices. buying materials with only organic chemicals will mean that as they are disposed of and rot down they provide a net positive to the planet. The more you use the more benefit the planet get. driving a car that cleans the air as you drive means that the more you drive the better the planet gets

One further point world population is set to increase from 7.5Bn to 9.1bn by 2050. Most of which will be high users of energy.
we have 12 years to turn this around minus the two days we have been debating this on MM

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 11:21 AM
Yep well put Zouch. Agree with that. I would also argue we need to assist developing countries with cleaner technology. I alluded to the carbon footprint argument myself earlier and do like your idea of buying in services rather than ownership. This would have to be a fair system though.

If 12 years IS the magic number we really need to start getting some of these things into place now. It won't be popular with voters like you say though but politicians need to be bluntly honest about what needs to be done.

I would also argue that we need to ensure that our kids keep being educated about environmental problems, learn ways to solve them and be involved in monitoring the environment so that it is real to them. It will be their baby and they need to know this and the urgency in which things need to be sorted.

It needs to be the new zeitgeist in the world where we step up our efforts to protect the environment without even thinking about it.

flourbasher
10-10-2018, 11:32 AM
This is a good debate and just to add to a couple of points already made.

Iceland does indeed have natural geothermal resources in abundance. So much so that it is able to heat parts of the road system in remote areas. This is usually limited to sloped sections of the roads where accidents have the most risk.


With regard to incentives to encourage people to use renewable energy, this already exists can can be quite lucrative.
I have solar thermal panels and ground source heating and I have been in regular receipt of RHI (renewable heat incentive) from the Govt for many years which is very generous. This continues in perpetuity long after the capital costs of installing the equipment have been paid off. In fact it will continue with anyone who purchases my house should I wish to sell it.
I'm surprised the Govt hasn't removed that last benefit because it does seem uneccessary.

I was mindful at the time that I installed my renewable energy that successive Govts might remove the RHI payments so it was a risk but they haven't done so.
I suspect that because there's so few households with renewables the Govt is still able to afford it

crashbang
10-10-2018, 01:30 PM
I was expecting the "Haven't you got Grand kids? bit, and yes I have.
Fracking will be no problem.
It's still the Nimbys who drive about in big cars, maybe two car families.
Have more electrical appliances than Jodral Bank.
Central heating.
Buy stuff in plastic and styro wrapping.
And moan about Fracking.
Just how much of a carbon foot print do you think it takes to
produce ONE of those monster wind turbines? ( I'm for them by the way.)
So all of you with grand kids worrying about their future.
Pack the list in above and I might think you are serious.

John2
10-10-2018, 01:39 PM
What point are you trying to make crashbang?

That you are aware we need to change things for future generations but other people aren't perfect so why should you bother?

I'd imagine the carbon footprint of a wind turbine is magnitudes smaller than the coal other non renewable source. Are you saying that unless something is perfect we shouldn't bother switching?

I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

crashbang
10-10-2018, 01:45 PM
Well John, I'm Sat in my garden 19c, sun is out 10th October.
My Grape vine is usually shedding this time of year, but just a slight tinge on the leaves.
I quite like Global warming.
Thinking of buying a Hummer to help it along a bit.
How did I not say not change.
Post 1.

crashbang
10-10-2018, 01:54 PM
John , What are you doing ?
You know, your bit .

zouch
10-10-2018, 02:15 PM
Lets not make this a competitions guys. We all live different lives so our responses will be different.

Here is a tweet from David Powell at the New Economic Foundation
here is what we can all do
Tomorrow:
1) political: tell your MP etc you only vote for good climate policies
2) money: move to ethical bank and pension provider & tell old one why
3) culture: talk about climate to friends & family
4) consumption: eat less meat

WanChaiMiller
10-10-2018, 02:20 PM
The money would be better spent making homes 30% more energy efficient, but, yes, there is a case for small scale solar, which is why I'm looking at it (though, sadly, it may involve cutting down a mature tree to the South East of my house).



Glad you agree. I'd say do both. Doesnt have to be one or the other.

crashbang
10-10-2018, 02:46 PM
Lets not make this a competitions guys. We all live different lives so our responses will be different.

Here is a tweet from David Powell at the New Economic Foundation
here is what we can all do
Tomorrow:
1) political: tell your MP etc you only vote for good climate policies
2) money: move to ethical bank and pension provider & tell old one why
3) culture: talk about climate to friends & family
4) consumption: eat less meat





Number 4 is a good one.
Ive been out side today, and at one moment, there was 9 airliners overhead.
Now I wonder how many are up there?
Got my telescope out, and not one were using engines powered by windmills or solar panels.
John 2. calculate how many tons of oxygen does 747 burn times how many flying at one moment times 365 day a year.
I don't think my pension provider will stop that. or cutting down on a Bacon butty.

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 03:18 PM
Its a fair point about flying Crash. Maybe people should be only allocated so many air miles a year to use for a start. Air craft are big polluters. If you go on flight radar you will see how any aircraft are in the sky all over the world at any one time...

As regards meat. I could happily live without meat but people do need a source of protein etc which meat gives as part of a balanced diet. Could a substitute though put stress on other food sources. There was a suggestion we should all eat insectsas a substitute Plenty of them about and a great source of protein. They already do this in some countries : fried tarantula-ok that aint an insect- the lot. Its only our culture which stops us doing this. Things can be done but it means a change in the way which we live. Maybe governments should reward insect food consumers/ suppliers in some way..

Whatever, the way forward should be reward, reward, reward people who are doing the environmentally correct thing and punish those who aren't. They would soon get the message that to live in tandem with the environment is the best way all round. I know gfire and the likes would call this a fascist policy but tough luck it is for their good as well.

As regards car ownership and 2 car families, yep guilty but in my defence they are small engined cars and mini polluters compared to other vehicles on the road.. The answer of this is of course to provide better more frequent and cheaper public transport and make electric cars cheaper to buy. Car share policies need to be improved as well which some LAS have touched on. Again punish and reward.

great_fire
10-10-2018, 03:48 PM
What the climate scientists are saying now though is it's either going to get warmer or colder.

No ****, that's always been the case.

They're absolutely stealing a living.

rolymiller
10-10-2018, 03:57 PM
Why would they make this stuff up gfire? In any case, surely it is best to err on the side of caution with something as serious as this because if it is right and nothing has been done to stop it we will be in deep sh it as a race. Also is it not a good thing to have a cleaner world anyway?

One day your descendants may very well thank the brilliant scientists and politicians / ordinary bods who had the foresight and knowledge to do summat about this problem before it was too late always assuming there are any descendants to do it.

great_fire
10-10-2018, 04:23 PM
I also go by that film "An Inconvenient Truth" which the left went mad for but has since been comprehensively debunked.

zouch
10-10-2018, 05:28 PM
I also go by that film "An Inconvenient Truth" which the left went mad for but has since been comprehensively debunked.

No it hasnt! in fact the science is as strong today as it was when this film was first aired. Al Gore was taken to court about the usage and credibility of the science. The court ruled that the science was indeed credible but he used it for political gain.

He has now released an updated version which once again is supported by scientists.

ragingpup
10-10-2018, 07:12 PM
No it hasnt! in fact the science is as strong today as it was when this film was first aired. Al Gore was taken to court about the usage and credibility of the science. The court ruled that the science was indeed credible but he used it for political gain.

He has now released an updated version which once again is supported by scientists.

Sorry zouch, I'm afraid it has been debunked.

Infowars debunked it.

zouch
11-10-2018, 09:13 AM
97% of all climate scientists accept that climate change is real, large and a threat to the future of humanity. That 97% basically concur with the vast majority of claims made by Vice President Al Gore in his Nobel Peace Prize winning film, An Inconvenient Truth.
source is a Richard Muller, Professor of Physics at UC Berkeley

Rather amusingly i also found an article in 2007 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2007/oct/11/climatechange which is the closest i found to anything that debunked the film.
The case was brought to challenge that schools show AL Gore's film to children by teachers who dismissed the science. The judge basically said the science is broadly correct but there are 9 assumptions that the science was wrong or over stated. i wont list them here but this is a perfect example where the sceptics use confusion tactics to dismiss the science. The list of 9 things are now (i think all of them) have been proven to be real and factually accurate.

Whether you agree with the film or not science has indeed moved on to state that the unprecedented rate of Climate Change is man made made and our inability to address this will be the stupidest mistake mankind has ever made.

Secondly those who brought the case stated that the film was alarmist and overstated, which was supported by the judge.
We now have 12 years to make change before mankind has an real existential threat.

John2
11-10-2018, 10:14 AM
Number 4 is a good one.
Ive been out side today, and at one moment, there was 9 airliners overhead.
Now I wonder how many are up there?
Got my telescope out, and not one were using engines powered by windmills or solar panels.
John 2. calculate how many tons of oxygen does 747 burn times how many flying at one moment times 365 day a year.
I don't think my pension provider will stop that. or cutting down on a Bacon butty.

OK, so I was basically right, you think you're being smart by trying to be provocative, but I suspect this is really so you feel more comfortable expressing your sincere position that... there's too much needs doing and too many others not doing enough so why bother?

Your grand kids do deserve better than that. Don't worry about what I do or don't do for the environment, try and persuade me to be better by all means, but beyond that you have no control over other people's actions, only your own. Why will you only act if your pension provider does too, are you a sheep?

If you must know I've been a vegetarian for 10 of the last 11 years, never thought I would be but it's actually easy once you give it a proper go and you don't miss meat. I also always try to recycle, minimise my energy consumption (though that's because I'm tight as much as anything) and have used a bicycle as my primary mode of transportation for the last 5 years. That said I also have a campervan and like to travel, I'll be flying 4,500 miles on Monday. While I could certainly do more, I'm not a hypocrite... I'm not arguing everyone needs to do everything, just that we all need to make adjustments and pick our priorities.

I even tried an insect pizza the other week (mealworm) and if they come to the supermarkets would gladly use insects as a more sustainable food source. Tasted nutty, quite pleasant.

great_fire
11-10-2018, 10:31 AM
No it hasnt! in fact the science is as strong today as it was when this film was first aired. Al Gore was taken to court about the usage and credibility of the science. The court ruled that the science was indeed credible but he used it for political gain.

He has now released an updated version which once again is supported by scientists.

Someone should take Michael Moore to court for all the lies in his films.

That's the problem with these agit-prop films, the message is more important than the truth.

rolymiller
11-10-2018, 10:47 AM
So what would need to happen before you believed that it could be true? And does it not concern you your final realisation of that truth might mean it has dawned on you too late?

ragingpup
11-10-2018, 12:03 PM
Someone should take Michael Moore to court for all the lies in his films.

That's the problem with these agit-prop films, the message is more important than the truth.


Which lies are you referring to specifically?

KerrAvon
12-10-2018, 12:49 PM
Its a fair point about flying Crash. Maybe people should be only allocated so many air miles a year to use for a start. Air craft are big polluters. If you go on flight radar you will see how any aircraft are in the sky all over the world at any one time...

As regards meat. I could happily live without meat but people do need a source of protein etc which meat gives as part of a balanced diet. Could a substitute though put stress on other food sources. There was a suggestion we should all eat insectsas a substitute Plenty of them about and a great source of protein. They already do this in some countries : fried tarantula-ok that aint an insect- the lot. Its only our culture which stops us doing this. Things can be done but it means a change in the way which we live. Maybe governments should reward insect food consumers/ suppliers in some way..

Whatever, the way forward should be reward, reward, reward people who are doing the environmentally correct thing and punish those who aren't. They would soon get the message that to live in tandem with the environment is the best way all round. I know gfire and the likes would call this a fascist policy but tough luck it is for their good as well.

As regards car ownership and 2 car families, yep guilty but in my defence they are small engined cars and mini polluters compared to other vehicles on the road.. The answer of this is of course to provide better more frequent and cheaper public transport and make electric cars cheaper to buy. Car share policies need to be improved as well which some LAS have touched on. Again punish and reward.
What do you think would happen to a political party that proposes an air miles system?

Vegetarians get their protein from vegetable sources - principally pulses and nuts. And no, switching to such sources does not put pressure on them; meat production is hopelessly inefficient, with animals needing to be fed many kilograms of protein (not always vegetable, unfortunately, in the case of cows and sheep) to produce one kg of meat. The same principle applies to dairy and eggs production. The land used for livestock farming can be used to produce much more vegetable protein. So fill your boots, Roly. Time for you to stop talking and start acting.

As for two cars - as you said yourself - guilty. I see you try to excuse that. Fair enough, but maybe the difference between you and gf is that he makes no bones about taking no action, whereas you talk about it, but do nowt. Are you a politician?

P.s. Electric cars run on electricity. Electricity has to be generated.

rolymiller
12-10-2018, 02:21 PM
Don't doubt i could do more but at least I recognise there is a problem and would support policies which helped stop global warming. I would be foolish not to.

I do recycle etc and try to do things in an environmentally friendly way so to say i do nowt is not accurate but yes i could do more. It is time i agree but that applies to us all doesn't it. I presume you are doing your bit as well.

We all need some hard leadership on this and it will be a bitter pill to swallow for many when people are forced into changing their lifestyles. All a bit fascist perhaps. All political parties need to be bluntly honest though about this. I would argue that because I dont have a particularly materialistic lifestyle when the crunch comes I will find it less of a pain than many others but pain it will be I'm sure.

One man cannot change the world alone. i could be the most environmentally friendly bloke on the planet but it wouldn't stop global warming. Only seriously collective action would do that which would involve everyone on the planet.

To be fair to gf maybe he takes more action on this than what he suggests on here.

I accept your points about meat production and electricity production by the way. I have already said on here I could live without meat could/ do you?

CAMiller
12-10-2018, 02:52 PM
Some great points on here about a variety of topics, allow me to add another which is a particular bugbear of mine. Waste. 40% of food produced in the US goes to waste. WTF? That's just the tip of the iceberg. Think how much energy would be saved if we didn't live in such a wasteful society?

millmoormagic
12-10-2018, 03:25 PM
Some great points on here about a variety of topics, allow me to add another which is a particular bugbear of mine. Waste. 40% of food produced in the US goes to waste. WTF? That's just the tip of the iceberg. Think how much energy would be saved if we didn't live in such a wasteful society?

Indeed, we're a throw away society of which we're all guilty and part of....so we should all be a part of the solution....

great_fire
12-10-2018, 03:59 PM
What are we meant to do?

Get some pigs in the back garden and feed it to them?

zouch
12-10-2018, 04:06 PM
A solution requires a completely different rethink about how economies work. Continued growth is unsustainable because the planet cant support it.GDP as a measure has to be replaced with social, environmental and economic well being measures so that growth is replaced with thrive. Systems of food production to be rethought so that we don't fly home produced products to and from the UK, energy production to be a close to zero carbon as possible etc etc

the question is who is going to show leadership and be the catalyst to a radical reform of how human kind works?




In the mean time i can make more ethical choices about my shopping and lifestyle - i suspect my carbon footprint is bigger than most and yet i make many ethical choices about my lifestyle.

monty_rhodes
12-10-2018, 04:52 PM
In the mean time i can make more ethical choices about my shopping and lifestyle - i suspect my carbon footprint is bigger than most and yet i make many ethical choices about my lifestyle.

There's a whole genre of writing on the phenomenon of the "environmental hypocrite". People like John Travolta who speaks out on the theme of "We all have to do our bit to combat global warming" while owning 5 private jets or Trudie Styler, hardline celeb environmentalist who recently flew her entire entourage from New York to Washington including her hair stylist.
As to Zouch's question the answer is NO ONE is going to show leadership on radical reform of how humanity works because the kind of people who might don't become leaders. Carlo Rovelli knows his onions and he reckons we're screwed and are probably in the last two or three generations of humanity. I don't have a problem with that.

KerrAvon
12-10-2018, 05:39 PM
Don't doubt i could do more but at least I recognise there is a problem and would support policies which helped stop global warming. I would be foolish not to.

I do recycle etc and try to do things in an environmentally friendly way so to say i do nowt is not accurate but yes i could do more. It is time i agree but that applies to us all doesn't it. I presume you are doing your bit as well.

We all need some hard leadership on this and it will be a bitter pill to swallow for many when people are forced into changing their lifestyles. All a bit fascist perhaps. All political parties need to be bluntly honest though about this. I would argue that because I dont have a particularly materialistic lifestyle when the crunch comes I will find it less of a pain than many others but pain it will be I'm sure.

One man cannot change the world alone. i could be the most environmentally friendly bloke on the planet but it wouldn't stop global warming. Only seriously collective action would do that which would involve everyone on the planet.

To be fair to gf maybe he takes more action on this than what he suggests on here.

I accept your points about meat production and electricity production by the way. I have already said on here I could live without meat could/ do you?Your post raises an interesting point. gf doesn't act through ignorance (possibly wilful ignorance) whereas you know there's a need to act, but stand behind bland statements about one man not being able to change things, having only two small cars and not wanting to go vegetarian out of an apparent concern for the impact on world bean production.

Which is worse, not accepting that things need to be done or knowing that it does, but waiting for 'leadership' before acting? I know what I think on that.

KerrAvon
12-10-2018, 06:02 PM
I should add that I particularly enjoyed I dont have a particularly materialistic lifestyle. Tell that to most of sub-Saharan Africa. You could show pictures of how small your two cars are to illustrate the point.

rolymiller
12-10-2018, 06:09 PM
I should add that I particularly enjoyed I dont have a particularly materialistic lifestyle. Tell that to most of sub-Saharan Africa. You could show pictures of how small your two cars are to illustrate the point.

Reasonable. It could be that the poorest people in the world might get some sort of benefit from policies that tackle global warming. I hope so.

KerrAvon
12-10-2018, 06:12 PM
Not if they are waiting for you to act

rolymiller
12-10-2018, 06:18 PM
There's a whole genre of writing on the phenomenon of the "environmental hypocrite". People like John Travolta who speaks out on the theme of "We all have to do our bit to combat global warming" while owning 5 private jets or Trudie Styler, hardline celeb environmentalist who recently flew her entire entourage from New York to Washington including her hair stylist.
As to Zouch's question the answer is NO ONE is going to show leadership on radical reform of how humanity works because the kind of people who might don't become leaders. Carlo Rovelli knows his onions and he reckons we're screwed and are probably in the last two or three generations of humanity. I don't have a problem with that.

Think Bono is another one of similar ilk. i'm sure there are plenty; some more guilty than others.

In a sense I dont have a problem with it either monty because me and thee will be long gone but if you have kids/ grandkids we have tp make a fist of it for for their sake. Not read the Rovelli stuff but if its owt like the James lovelock stuff I have read its pretty scary. So much so I stopped reading it.Lovelock thinks we are doomed anyway.In a way, for me, its poetic justice. We could have been a brilliant species but we blew it through greed and self interest and not being able to get on. .If any aliens were to wander by in a few hundred years time they would shake there heads/ tentacles etc and say what a complete waste of an intelligent species that was.

rolymiller
12-10-2018, 06:24 PM
Not if they are waiting for you to act

Why do I get the idea you are trying to bait me mr kerr. Did you ger out of bed the wrong side or summat? I can't think that I have put owt on here to upset you recently. Maybe you want to get one last insult in before the horsemen ride.

I suspect by the way that my carbon footprint is a lot smaller than yours even if it is too big.

rolymiller
12-10-2018, 06:40 PM
BUT lets not get too down hearted we are gonna win next Saturday and the end wont seem so bad!

millmoormagic
12-10-2018, 07:38 PM
Why do I get the idea you are trying to bait me mr kerr. Did you ger out of bed the wrong side or summat? I can't think that I have put owt on here to upset you recently. Maybe you want to get one last insult in before the horsemen ride.

I suspect by the way that my carbon footprint is a lot smaller than yours even if it is too big.

The amount of hot air he spouts mate there's no doubt about it, he's responsible for half the worlds carbon dioxide output...;D:P>:)

CAMiller
12-10-2018, 07:43 PM
What are we meant to do?

Get some pigs in the back garden and feed it to them?

Sounds like a perfectly good use for Sheffield Wednesday fans to me!

rolymiller
12-10-2018, 07:53 PM
i think he and a few others like him realise that he is gonna have to give up a lot of his material wealth and it hurts.Thats why he goes on about my hypocrisy as a distraction but the thing he doesn't realise is I have a lot less to give up and am quite wiling to do it if it protects future generations. Whether I am living a minimalistic lifestyle or not now is an aside, the fact is I could live one in the future without much bother. I'm not sure kerr could.

The rich would rather go over the precipice than give up their wealth and that , if it is to go tits up, is how it will all end.

parkgatewelfare
12-10-2018, 08:11 PM
We can no more halt the demise of civilisation than we can halt the orbit of the moon. Consumerism and credit, the desire to buy things we don't need with money we don't have created a fools paradise. If only in our ignorance we hadn't misinterpreted the seven deadly sins for virtues.

KerrAvon
12-10-2018, 10:11 PM
Why do I get the idea you are trying to bait me mr kerr. Did you ger out of bed the wrong side or summat? I can't think that I have put owt on here to upset you recently. Maybe you want to get one last insult in before the horsemen ride.

I suspect by the way that my carbon footprint is a lot smaller than yours even if it is too big.
Why do you get the idea that I'm trying to bait you? Because that's easier for you than actually dealing with what I'm posting would be my guess. What's yours?

If it's my turn to ask a question it would be: You say that you could easily give up meat, so why haven't you?

As far as I can see, your views on this subject are new variant socialism. In classic socialism, you would be all for the redistribution of wealth, but would have an explanation of why that doesn't apply to yours. In the new variant, you are all for addressing climate change as long as it doesn't impinge upon your meat consumption or affect your household ownership of only two small cars. That sort of nonsense is only for people you deem to be 'wealthy'. After all, you've done your bit by posting some nonsense about eating insects.

WanChaiMiller
13-10-2018, 12:21 AM
Number 4 is a good one.
Ive been out side today, and at one moment, there was 9 airliners overhead.
Now I wonder how many are up there?
Got my telescope out, and not one were using engines powered by windmills or solar panels.
John 2. calculate how many tons of oxygen does 747 burn times how many flying at one moment times 365 day a year.
I don't think my pension provider will stop that. or cutting down on a Bacon butty.

I heard a stat the other day. We use more energy globally charging smartphone type devices than on air travel.

WanChaiMiller
13-10-2018, 12:30 AM
I knew it would only be a matter of time before a big business conspiracy theory appeared - it's the nature of political debate on here - the Right blame immigrants for the ills of the world, whilst the Left blame the wealthy and big business. God forbid that anyone accepts a bit of personal responsibility.

How do you say the shareholders of utilities are blocking a more rapid spread of solar? There's money to be made in solar, as Bramley appears to have found to his cost. That by itself would attract operators to it, if there were much of a market.

I was talking specifically solar to battery. You broadened it to 'solar'. No conspiracy theory. Just hard economics. Utility companies will not develop products that allow electricty flow to bypass their till.

CAMiller
13-10-2018, 05:48 AM
I heard a stat the other day. We use more energy globally charging smartphone type devices than on air travel.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. I'll believe that is one of the first two until someone shows me some evidence. A phone costs about 25c a year to charge and an iPad about $1.50 if you charge them every day.

CAMiller
13-10-2018, 06:20 AM
I dont believe it costs 25 cents a year to charge a mobile!! Lol.

Maybe look it up then. It's actually 91c for an iPhone 6+ which has a bigger battery than most.

WanChaiMiller
13-10-2018, 06:45 AM
Maybe look it up then. It's actually 91c for an iPhone 6+ which has a bigger battery than most.

I delete it because meant to say would never have thought it was that low (rather than dont believe you). There are 4.68 billion mobiles and 1.68 billion tablets worlwide plus other devices like kindles and laptops. Dont know how many planes.

CAMiller
13-10-2018, 06:58 AM
I delete it because meant to say would never have thought it was that low (rather than dont believe you). There are 4.68 billion mobiles and 1.68 billion tablets worlwide plus other devices like kindles and laptops. Dont know how many planes.

No problem. Average of 10,000 commercial planes in the sky, 24h/day, burning an average of 750 gal/h = 180M gal/day. At $3/gal I make that just under $200B/yr so in $ costs air travel burning at least 20x device charging.

WanChaiMiller
13-10-2018, 07:31 AM
No problem. Average of 10,000 commercial planes in the sky, 24h/day, burning an average of 750 gal/h = 180M gal/day. At $3/gal I make that just under $200B/yr so in $ costs air travel burning at least 20x device charging.

Lies, damn lies and statistics eh CAM. 😀😀

KerrAvon
13-10-2018, 07:46 AM
I was talking specifically solar to battery. You broadened it to 'solar'. No conspiracy theory. Just hard economics. Utility companies will not develop products that allow electricty flow to bypass their till. Businesses that can't smell change on the wind and adjust their operations accordingly don't do very well. Ask Kodak.

If your point was that the interests of utility company shareholders was blocking solar/battery, you still haven't really explained how so. Utility companies aren't the only organizations with R&D budgets. If there were a viable market there would be plenty of players wanting a stake in it.

rolymiller
13-10-2018, 08:08 AM
Kerr you appear to be very scared that the solution to environmental crisis is socialism. I'm afraid old boy that some sort of environmental socialism IS the only answer. Capitalism will not solve it and you know it. So all you righties out there take your medicine like men and accept it. In fact, even without a serious problem such as this socialism has always been the answer for a better fairer world. You are just in denial. If we do get out of this mess it will be down to socialist policies or at least variants of them. Capitalist policies will take us over the cliff. You know it and I know it but it is too bitter a pill for you to swallow.

WanChaiMiller
13-10-2018, 08:58 AM
Businesses that can't smell change on the wind and adjust their operations accordingly don't do very well. Ask Kodak.

If your point was that the interests of utility company shareholders was blocking solar/battery, you still haven't really explained how so. Utility companies aren't the only organizations with R&D budgets. If there were a viable market there would be plenty of players wanting a stake in it.

I said nothing about shareholders blocking solar battery. You're creating your argument against your own spun interpretation of what I said.

WanChaiMiller
13-10-2018, 09:48 AM
No problem. Average of 10,000 commercial planes in the sky, 24h/day, burning an average of 750 gal/h = 180M gal/day. At $3/gal I make that just under $200B/yr so in $ costs air travel burning at least 20x device charging.

I just checked...

'...A 2012 US study found that the average mobile phone draws around 3.68 watts when charging, and around 2.24 watts when plugged in and fully charged.

Energy company NPower claims this equates to a cost of around £3.50 per year to keep a mobile phone charged...'

I use mine much more now than I ever did in 2012 and charge it twice a day. I know battery technology has improved.

This throws your calculation out by some considerable amount - I wont go into the stats!!

John2
13-10-2018, 10:29 AM
Businesses that can't smell change on the wind and adjust their operations accordingly don't do very well. Ask Kodak.

If your point was that the interests of utility company shareholders was blocking solar/battery, you still haven't really explained how so. Utility companies aren't the only organizations with R&D budgets. If there were a viable market there would be plenty of players wanting a stake in it.

It's not just oil companies that have an interest historically in blocking electric cars... electric cars contain something like 14 moving parts compared to over 2,000 in a gasoline engine. Consequently the lifespan of an electric car is likely to exceed 500,000 miles with minimal maintenance.

It's not a massive conspiracy theory to think the electric car has been suppressed before. GM experimented with them in the 1990s, and produced the EV1 which was hugely popular with owners (who were only allowed to lease). As soon as the Republicans were elected and a Californian law requiring manufacturers to produce zero emission vehicles effectively died, all the cars were taken back and crushed.

There is compelling reason to think we could have had the electric car revolution almost 2 decades earlier with NIMH battery technology.

Unfortunately the patents for NIMH were quickly sold and ended up with Chevron oil company. After the success of the EV1, rival car manufacturers tried to create NIMH powered cars, most notably the Toyota RAV4-EV.

Chevron sued Toyota to block them selling the car as it owned the patents. Toyota had to stop selling the car, agreed a payment to settle, and instead could only get the rights to smaller NIMH batteries for the hybrid Toyota Prius.

This is not conspiracy, this is all verifiable. It's only the advent of Lithium ion batteries that is bringing back the viability of the electric car... and that's achieved by having lots of small batteries bundled together, the same cells we've been using in laptops for a long time so much harder to kill through patents. Not only that it took the creation and success of Tesla, an electric only company that made other car manufacturers have to take the threat to electric seriously since they no longer had the power to collectively suppress it and it became a risk to them.

There's an interesting documentary called 'who killed the electric car' that's worth a watch.

rolymiller
13-10-2018, 10:58 AM
Interesting article here about Capitalism and the environment

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/nov/26/capitalism-environment-green-greed-slow-life-symposium-tony-juniper

The way forward is not through capitalism. Unfortunately for the world, it could be we realise this too late.

monty_rhodes
13-10-2018, 02:20 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread yet so forgive me if I'm missing something but to me the elephant in the room is us, people, populace, the masses, whatever you call them. The idea that capitalism subverts the better aspirations of a potentially socially responsible and generous population is almost certainly putting the cart before the horse; capitalism is successful because it panders to the greed, fear and vanity that basically drive human society.
History is also full of examples of individuals, groups, societies, nations and empires that preferred cosy myth to any reality that might be difficult. Let us suppose a paladin did emerge - politician, party, movement or whatever - and told us that we had to SACRIFICE certain pleasures to save the planet. What would happen is that another politician, party or movement would rise up and exploit short term success by telling us we did not have to sacrifice these pleasures. They and us might even know this was a lie but it wouldn't matter; concern for the future always comes a bad second to enjoyment in the present.

WanChaiMiller
13-10-2018, 03:12 PM
The snow flakes don't want fracking . Wind turbines. Nuclear. Fossil fuels.
Just where do they want their leccy from?

A top scientist doesnt rate fracking crashbang. Is is right or a snowflake?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/13/top-climate-scientist-james-hansen-attacks-uk-fracking-plans?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

rolymiller
13-10-2018, 03:29 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread yet so forgive me if I'm missing something but to me the elephant in the room is us, people, populace, the masses, whatever you call them. The idea that capitalism subverts the better aspirations of a potentially socially responsible and generous population is almost certainly putting the cart before the horse; capitalism is successful because it panders to the greed, fear and vanity that basically drive human society.
History is also full of examples of individuals, groups, societies, nations and empires that preferred cosy myth to any reality that might be difficult. Let us suppose a paladin did emerge - politician, party, movement or whatever - and told us that we had to SACRIFICE certain pleasures to save the planet. What would happen is that another politician, party or movement would rise up and exploit short term success by telling us we did not have to sacrifice these pleasures. They and us might even know this was a lie but it wouldn't matter; concern for the future always comes a bad second to enjoyment in the present.


Reasonable points Monts and probably why we are up sh it creek. If it is true we need to be all singing off the same hymn sheet (which could be our last resort literally!) 12 years, if that is the magical number, is not a long time to rehearse properly. The lack of foresight you mention could also come back to haunt us. We should have been starting to tackle these problems when we first started noticing them maybe 30/ 40 years ago but as you say we chose to ignore them because it wasn't deemed as urgent and the here and now mattered most. The problem is even if we got together magically now even today with some sort of educated plan as a species to try and tackle the problem it could very well be too late. We can hope that the scientists are wrong of course and they are exaggerating the timescale of events but this can work 2 ways; it could be that they have underestimated how quickly this is going to happen as well. They are already saying the Earth's temperature is rising faster than they thought. It ain't good.

In a way, I'm a bit pissed off because I will probably be gone before finding out what happens! Did Humans survive or didn't they? Its like watching a thrilling movie and missing the end because you have to dash to the bog! Still I might have an idea of the result if we are 4-0 down when I snuff if with 5 minutes left.

rolymiller
13-10-2018, 03:53 PM
By the way Crashbang, you shouldn't have started this thread, I'm totally depressed now! Somebody tell me a joke!:)

CAMiller
13-10-2018, 04:00 PM
I just checked...

'...A 2012 US study found that the average mobile phone draws around 3.68 watts when charging, and around 2.24 watts when plugged in and fully charged.

Energy company NPower claims this equates to a cost of around £3.50 per year to keep a mobile phone charged...'

I use mine much more now than I ever did in 2012 and charge it twice a day. I know battery technology has improved.

This throws your calculation out by some considerable amount - I wont go into the stats!!
The 91c comes from a 2018 independent study. I know electricity is cheaper in the US and your figure explains why my daughter in the UK switched from nPower after 1 bill. That 3.50 probably includes a 3.25 service charge XD

monty_rhodes
13-10-2018, 04:09 PM
By the way Crashbang, you shouldn't have started this thread, I'm totally depressed now! Somebody tell me a joke!:)

"...I asked her for some happy news. But she just smiled and turned away..." Roly, my new pal, do not worry about how it turns out because it turns out badly. Berlin, April 1945, the bunker, is the clue. Armaggedon a street away and people squabbling over who would inherit the fuhrer's mantle. As the last ice melts and the sea laps at their door some PR oik will still be typing out an article on how global warming is all a myth.

rolymiller
13-10-2018, 04:31 PM
...think that PR oik might be greatfire...

...but yes my new mucker ... "all is over. I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam". (Frodo Baggins/ Lord of the Rings).

...but then Gwaihir the Windlord and Landroval his brother the greatest of all the Eagles of the North arrived and bob's yer uncle!

Nah... that's not the ending is it?

Don't ya think its also a bit Hitch hikers guide to the galaxyish this situation as well?

KerrAvon
13-10-2018, 05:20 PM
Kerr you appear to be very scared that the solution to environmental crisis is socialism. I'm afraid old boy that some sort of environmental socialism IS the only answer. Capitalism will not solve it and you know it. So all you righties out there take your medicine like men and accept it. In fact, even without a serious problem such as this socialism has always been the answer for a better fairer world. You are just in denial. If we do get out of this mess it will be down to socialist policies or at least variants of them. Capitalist policies will take us over the cliff. You know it and I know it but it is too bitter a pill for you to swallow.
What I'm scared of is the complacency of people who flaunt their belief in their own moral superiority with comments like :

'I suspect by the way that my carbon footprint is a lot smaller than yours even if it is too big.

and

I have a lot less to give up and am quite wiling to do it if it protects future generations. Whether I am living a minimalistic lifestyle or not now is an aside, the fact is I could live one in the future without much bother

whilst doing, on the face of it, diddly squat.

If you happily live without meat why aren't you doing so? At what point in our spiral towards catastrophic climate change are you planning to act?

Perhaps when you are sitting in Monty's bunker someone will ask what you did to try to stop the rot. Listing what you could have done 'without much bother' probably won't cut it. Nor will proclaiming that you used electricity to argue with gf and write drivel about becoming insectivorous.

Socialism is yet to be shown to be the answer to anything - ask the Venezuelans. If you mean that a solution will require increasingly autocratic government to curtail individual liberty and freedom of choice, you may be on to something. Maybe if people who could happily live without meat won't do so there needs to be an element of coercion. Is that what you have in mind?

KerrAvon
13-10-2018, 05:32 PM
@John,

I haven't seen the film to which you refer, but the chap who wrote this has:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/01/woudhuysen_electric_car/

He's only a professor at De Montfort University rather than the real Leicester University though, so he may not know what he's talking about.

Electric cars are a bit of a red herring. They may mean cleaner air in city centres, but the electricity has to be generated somewhere. The real problem with them, however, as I alluded to earlier, is that much more energy can be carried in petrol or diesel than in the equivalent weight of batteries, which means they may have value for local commutes, but not much else.

KerrAvon
13-10-2018, 05:35 PM
Interesting article here about Capitalism and the environment

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/nov/26/capitalism-environment-green-greed-slow-life-symposium-tony-juniper

The way forward is not through capitalism. Unfortunately for the world, it could be we realise this too late.A conference about climate change held in The Maldives. You couldn't make it up. I suppose all the delegates travelled there by solar powered boat?

John2
13-10-2018, 05:55 PM
@John,

I haven't seen the film to which you refer, but the chap who wrote this has:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/01/woudhuysen_electric_car/

He's only a professor at De Montfort University rather than the real Leicester University though, so he may not know what he's talking about.

Electric cars are a bit of a red herring. They may mean cleaner air in city centres, but the electricity has to be generated somewhere. The real problem with them, however, as I alluded to earlier, is that much more energy can be carried in petrol or diesel than in the equivalent weight of batteries, which means they may have value for local commutes, but not much else.

Did you read the article you linked?

I did, it's an opinion piece. It does not counter any of the objective facts I mentioned, just a vague opinion that the reason the electric car failed was actually because Americans in the 1990s were favouring bigger cars.

What about the European market which had much smaller cars? The vast majority of 2 car household cars could easily have a car suited to local commutes - they represent the vast majority of journey types.

Why wasn't Toyota allowed to use NIMH batteries? It's no conspiracy theory that an oil company owned the patents to NIMH battery power and prevented their use. I'll not be giving much weight to a nobody professor from De Montfort's opinion, you rightly point out it's not even the best university in Leicester.

KerrAvon
13-10-2018, 06:01 PM
Yes, I read it John. Did you? Where is the opinion in the figures given for the relative energy content of petrol versus battery?

Are we really going to be reduced to mourning for a two seater car with a range of about 80 miles per charge? I won't be joining you in that. It was a rubbish product that didn't meet the needs of the market.

What mileage do you do when you drive your diesel van to the Alps? Would an electric vehicle be a realistic option for that?

rolymiller
13-10-2018, 06:41 PM
Mr Kerr: Ok smart arse indulge us, what is your effort towards preventing environmental catastrophe.



.You criticise others but you don't say what you are doing yourself....I suspect not a lot but I'm willing to be proved wrong...It was interesting that you jumped on my air miles comment which immediately made me think that you use more than your fair share of air miles. I mentioned my 2 cars quite openly and honestly but you didn't mention yours just taking a swipe at my hypocrasy so I assume you dont drive one or in the case of air miles don't fly anywhere. I presume then you get the ferry then drive to the Swiss Alps for your regular skiing holidays.

If I'm wrong then good on you but with the stuff you put on here arguing in the defence of materialism I would doubt it.

rolymiller
13-10-2018, 06:58 PM
...but don't panic too much kerr the socialists will never get at your possessions because you will go over the precipice with em.

great_fire
13-10-2018, 07:38 PM
Weird cos 10 years ago Kerr was your typical lefty SJW type.

Loads of "whataboutery" when the news about those grooming gangs came out.

great_fire
13-10-2018, 11:31 PM
This story sums up the liberal left for me, virtue signalling to puff up their egos and stopping a rapist being deported.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6273199/Somali-man-deportation-stopped-good-plane-passengers-revealed-gang-rapist.html

John2
13-10-2018, 11:38 PM
Yes, I read it John. Did you? Where is the opinion in the figures given for the relative energy content of petrol versus battery?

Are we really going to be reduced to mourning for a two seater car with a range of about 80 miles per charge? I won't be joining you in that. It was a rubbish product that didn't meet the needs of the market.

What mileage do you do when you drive your diesel van to the Alps? Would an electric vehicle be a realistic option for that?

The 80 miles figure was Tom Hanks referring to how much range he required, "Tom Hanks told the David Letterman show that a single charge for a range of 70-80 miles a day was all he needed personally"

That was the first generation, the second generation but patent blocked NIMH batteries could achieve up to 160 miles range.

Yes, petrol is more dense than any battery. That includes Lithium ion which is likely to replace petrol and diesel, so I fail to see the significance. It just means the weight carried for energy storage is heavier, though other aspects are lighter (no engine).

A bit of a straw man to mention an 800 mile journey for a van, I'm not arguing that batteries were ready for all use cases, just that the technology was patented and blocked by an oil company where there were legitimate mass market use cases for it, I'm failing to see anything to suggest this is in any way not the case or a conspiracy.

WanChaiMiller
14-10-2018, 08:21 AM
CAM - sorry I got this wrong. So much for relying on second hand info.

The smartphone stat includes the data end of the process (and not just charging the phone).

This is quoted text from the article... 'If you worry about climate change and a cause celebre such as the expansion of Heathrow airport, it is worth considering that data centres are set to soon have a bigger carbon footprint than the entire aviation industry...'

Also...'I was reminded of all this by the recently published book New Dark Age, by the British writer James Bridle. He cites a study in Japan that suggests that by 2030, the power requirements of digital services will outstrip the nation’s entire current generation capacity.'

The article is worth reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/17/internet-climate-carbon-footprint-data-centres

WanChaiMiller
14-10-2018, 08:24 AM
I think this is interesting from the article about.....'He quotes an American report from 2013 – ironically enough, commissioned by coal industry lobbyists – that pointed out that using either a tablet or smartphone to wirelessly watch an hour of video a week used roughly the same amount of electricity (largely consumed at the data-centre end of the process) as two new domestic fridges.'

WanChaiMiller
14-10-2018, 08:35 AM
Another interesting quote. Was there someone on here into Bitcoin recently....'He (James Bridle) mentions the vast amounts of electricity consumed by the operations of the online currency Bitcoin – which, at the height of the speculative frenzies earlier this year, was set to produce an annual amount of carbon dioxide equivalent to 1m transatlantic flights.'

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 09:26 AM
Reasonable points Monts and probably why we are up sh it creek. If it is true we need to be all singing off the same hymn sheet (which could be our last resort literally!) 12 years, if that is the magical number, is not a long time to rehearse properly. The lack of foresight you mention could also come back to haunt us. We should have been starting to tackle these problems when we first started noticing them maybe 30/ 40 years ago but as you say we chose to ignore them because it wasn't deemed as urgent and the here and now mattered most. The problem is even if we got together magically now even today with some sort of educated plan as a species to try and tackle the problem it could very well be too late. We can hope that the scientists are wrong of course and they are exaggerating the timescale of events but this can work 2 ways; it could be that they have underestimated how quickly this is going to happen as well. They are already saying the Earth's temperature is rising faster than they thought. It ain't good.

In a way, I'm a bit pissed off because I will probably be gone before finding out what happens! Did Humans survive or didn't they? Its like watching a thrilling movie and missing the end because you have to dash to the bog! Still I might have an idea of the result if we are 4-0 down when I snuff if with 5 minutes left.

That, if we are honest is exactly why Capitalism is genearlly successful, pandering to our basic instincts greed being probably at the top of the list
Deregulation [a la Thatcher mantra ] can be held as one of the main reasons to encourage such instincts ,let the market decide etc

Kerr demonstrates on a regular & frequent basis his love of such instincts but I'm sure he doesn't forget to drop a coin or two into those begging on the street [notice how their number increases daily in spite of his generousity]

I think the answer is 42

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 09:33 AM
Mr Kerr: Ok smart arse indulge us, what is your effort towards preventing environmental catastrophe.



.You criticise others but you don't say what you are doing yourself....I suspect not a lot but I'm willing to be proved wrong...It was interesting that you jumped on my air miles comment which immediately made me think that you use more than your fair share of air miles. I mentioned my 2 cars quite openly and honestly but you didn't mention yours just taking a swipe at my hypocrasy so I assume you dont drive one or in the case of air miles don't fly anywhere. I presume then you get the ferry then drive to the Swiss Alps for your regular skiing holidays.

If I'm wrong then good on you but with the stuff you put on here arguing in the defence of materialism I would doubt it.

Like
& spot on as well

gm_gm
14-10-2018, 09:48 AM
Like
& spot on as well

Roly fan club?

zouch
14-10-2018, 11:48 AM
The electric car debate is a bit of a red herring with climate change. They are definitely a better option than ICE cars but there is far more energy that goes into the manufacturing of cars than the utility of them. Having said that we should electrify everything possible ready for renewable sources then it doesn't matter.
This debate (which is fascinating and enjoyable to hear the range of views) has got a little stuck in the role of the individual. The answers to Climate change will only be addressed in systematic and radical changes. Electric cars need a common infrastructure so that a drive to the Alps is simple and an energy from renewable sources ditto any transport , an end of life plan for all inanimate objects and a waste recycling infrastructure to ensure all materials are recycled etc etc.
in terms of politics and the role of individuals in afraid to say that we rely on both being void of vested interest alternatively a 3rd world war will sort this out quite quickly.
i also think that the ideologies of capitalism and socialism are insufficient to deal with the global changes we face to today. After all they were devised a long time ago under a different context

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 12:55 PM
Agree couldn't have an old style Marxist socialism which was based on industrialisation but think many socialist principles can still hold when dealing with environmental issues. Think capitalism should be ruled out because of its encouragement of materialism and self serving attitude. I don't say this to spite such as Kerr I genuinely don't think it is geared up to solving environmental problems.

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 01:01 PM
If I can get our lass into me fan club I will have cracked it GM!

monty_rhodes
14-10-2018, 01:48 PM
If I can get our lass into me fan club I will have cracked it GM!

Is it true roly that your club meetings are held in an old phone box?

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 01:58 PM
Is it true roly that your club meetings are held in an old phone box?

There is an elephant of truth in that Dear Monty!And when I put on a few pounds it can be hard to hold meetings.:P

However, I have tried to lose a bit of weight recently so there is a bit of room for Mr. Kerr.O:)

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 01:59 PM
Mr Kerr: Ok smart arse indulge us, what is your effort towards preventing environmental catastrophe.



.You criticise others but you don't say what you are doing yourself....I suspect not a lot but I'm willing to be proved wrong...It was interesting that you jumped on my air miles comment which immediately made me think that you use more than your fair share of air miles. I mentioned my 2 cars quite openly and honestly but you didn't mention yours just taking a swipe at my hypocrasy so I assume you dont drive one or in the case of air miles don't fly anywhere. I presume then you get the ferry then drive to the Swiss Alps for your regular skiing holidays.

If I'm wrong then good on you but with the stuff you put on here arguing in the defence of materialism I would doubt it.This is an interesting post. I appear to have upset and annoyed you by doing little more than quoting from your own contributions to the thread. I have never called you a hypocrite or criticised you save, perhaps, for my comments about your apparent desire to eat insects.

Why should I detail what I do? I haven't claimed any form of virtue or moral superiority over others in the way that you have. It could have been nothing other than hubris that drove you to assert that you suspected that your 'carbon footprint' was smaller than mine - we don't know each other.

Does the Roly household still have a Sunday roast? What was it today? I'm guessing pork.

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 02:10 PM
There is an elephant of truth in that Dear Monty!And when I put on a few pounds it can be hard to hold meetings.:P

However, I have tried to lose a bit of weight recently so there is a bit of room for Mr. Kerr.O:)

Whoops looks like my slimming will be in vain!;D

Think the Mrs is doing Lasagne in answer to your question (beef not insect by the way) and you?

Don't have much pork to be honest dunno if that is better thing to have than Beef in terms of environmental protection. Genuine question, do you know? I don't. (Not trying to score points by the way).

Never said I was perfect. Who is? I think I do make quite a bit of effort to protect the environment with my lifestyle. Could I do more ?

Yes!

Some issues -like for example the meat argument- I was genuinely unaware of its impact on the environment and I suspect many are. I think this is another major issue that people need to be more educated on the products they consume. Maybe then they can make a better more informed choice. The stuff on mobile phones on here is very eye opening. Maybe produce we use ought to have some sort of warning on it like for example fag packets do only i n terms of damage to the environment rather than human bodies.

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 02:15 PM
The 80 miles figure was Tom Hanks referring to how much range he required, "Tom Hanks told the David Letterman show that a single charge for a range of 70-80 miles a day was all he needed personally"

That was the first generation, the second generation but patent blocked NIMH batteries could achieve up to 160 miles range.

Yes, petrol is more dense than any battery. That includes Lithium ion which is likely to replace petrol and diesel, so I fail to see the significance. It just means the weight carried for energy storage is heavier, though other aspects are lighter (no engine).

A bit of a straw man to mention an 800 mile journey for a van, I'm not arguing that batteries were ready for all use cases, just that the technology was patented and blocked by an oil company where there were legitimate mass market use cases for it, I'm failing to see anything to suggest this is in any way not the case or a conspiracy.I'm on holiday at the moment and only have my phone with me, so you have something of an advantage. I see that the 1st generation of the car used lead/acid batteries and had a range of about 80 miles and the later NiMH version had the 160 to which you refer.

Whichever battery type, they still had to be charged up and a considerable amount (somewhere around 25% I believe) of that charging would achieve nothing more than lugging the battery around as they weighed over half a tonne. That's a lot of fossil fuel to be burned so that the drivers could feel worthy. That's the significance of the power to weight ratio.

It's hardly surprising that the car could only carry two people with no luggage. It's also no surprise that GM decided to, ahem, pull the plug on what could never have been a commercial success.

Conspiracy theories have never been my genre of choice, but I'll watch the film when I'm back from my hols.

There was nothing straw man in my post. I was making the point that electric vehicle technology doesn't meet the needs of anyone other than for a local commutes. Do electric car fetishists think we should all have two cars - one for short jaunts and one for longer trips? That would be good for the environment...

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 02:21 PM
Roly fan club? Exile likes anyone who doesn't like me (I know it's hard to believe, but there is the odd one or two such people about). I think I upset him at some point in the past.

Roly finds himself in esteemed company. Exile popped up last year to call Kempo a 'good man' after the good doctor had become upset with me for one thing or another.

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 02:26 PM
Whoops looks like my slimming will be in vain!;D

Think the Mrs is doing Lasagne in answer to your question (beef not insect by the way) and you?

Don't have much pork to be honest dunno if that is better thing to have than Beef in terms of environmental protection. Genuine question, do you know? I don't. (Not trying to score points by the way).

Never said I was perfect. Who is? I think I do make quite a bit of effort to protect the environment with my lifestyle. Could I do more ?

Yes!

Some issues -like for example the meat argument- I am genuinely unaware of its impact on the environment and I suspect many are. I think this is another major issue that people need to be more educated on the products they consume. Maybe then they can make a better informed choice. The stuff on mobile phones is very eye opening. Maybe producs we use ought to have some sort of warning on them like for example fag packets do.Beef and pork are both appalling, but beef is the worst.

The stuff about mobile phones isn't really about mobile phones. It's about the growth of streaming services. You can now screw the environment by watching YouTube, the BBC iPlayer and soft porn for electric car perverts.

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 02:29 PM
...and no I don't fancy battered tarantula or fried locust, I just offered it as an option.

To be fair to you you do seem quite clued up on what damages the environment. Its something we all need to be and fast...I think the point is though we need to be told what the alternatives are.Eg pork and beef are bad for the environment chicken is better (if it is, I dunno).

gm_gm
14-10-2018, 02:39 PM
If I can get our lass into me fan club I will have cracked it GM!

.....

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 04:04 PM
Exile likes anyone who doesn't like me (I know it's hard to believe, but there is the odd one or two such people about). I think I upset him at some point in the past.

Roly finds himself in esteemed company. Exile popped up last year to call Kempo a 'good man' after the good doctor had become upset with me for one thing or another.




"I think I upset him at some point in the past"

" had become upset with me for one thing or another"


How incredibly vague

But I will give you this Kerr .....I don't like you ...
Hope this removes any doubt you may be harbouring

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 04:32 PM
I said nothing about shareholders blocking solar battery. You're creating your argument against your own spun interpretation of what I said.

It's what he does............................with monotonous regularity

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 04:37 PM
Well I like you very much, Exile.

I'm sorry for being vague, but I really can't recall how I initially upset you. And let's be honest, you probably can't either given the number of feuds you tend to start.

As for Kempo, I used to really enjoy his posts, but upset him initially by correcting him on the terms of the Abortion Act of all things. Thereafter, he just wanted to pick fights with me. I can't recall what in particular had upset him when you weighed in to tell him that he was a 'good man'. I'd look it up, but I have a life.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 04:38 PM
Roly fan club?

Like what he said
if that is simple enough for you to understand

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 04:39 PM
Just in case any of you were wondering what stalking looks like, you are getting just a teeny glimpse.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 04:53 PM
Well I like you very much, Exile.

I'm sorry for being vague, but I really can't recall how I initially upset you. And let's be honest, you probably can't either given the number of feuds you tend to start.

As for Kempo, I used to really enjoy his posts, but upset him initially by correcting him on the terms of the Abortion Act of all things. Thereafter, he just wanted to pick fights with me. I can't recall what in particular had upset him when you weighed in to tell him that he was a 'good man'. I'd look it up, but I have a life.

Well I like you very much, Exile.

I'm sorry for being vague, but I really can't recall how I initially upset you. And let's be honest, you probably can't either given the number of feuds you tend to start.


Can anyone on here believe this psycho
He's the one being vague but it's my fault
As I said Kerr it's what you do
If as you say you have a life why not live it then
Yours in hope
Billy Clanton

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 05:03 PM
Just in case any of you were wondering what stalking looks like, you are getting just a teeny glimpse.

For further proof just look back on the Barnsley board & his abuse of Animal for the ultimate in stalking as Kerr so childishly puts it

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 05:09 PM
I can't recall ever being abusive to animal, but he did make me quite cross when he threatened me, so it's possible. Do you have an example in mind?

Just a long shot here, but have you ever had a Restraining Order or non-Molestation Order taken out against you? You seem to have a very obsessive personality. I see them in my work sometimes.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 05:14 PM
I can't recall ever being abusive to animal, but he did make me quite cross when he threatened me, so it's possible. Do you have an example in mind?

Just a long shot here, but have you ever had a Restraining Order or non-Molestation Order taken out against you? You seem to have a very obsessive personality. I see them in my work sometimes.

What from a Football forum?
Yep you prison officers must see a lot in your line of work
Get real
Just exactly how did he threaten you
Does he know you, does he know where you live, does he have any means of finding out?

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 05:18 PM
No. In life. You know the kind of thing - a girlfriend leaves you so you sit in their garden at night or follow their new boyfriend, a neighbour parks in 'your' space so you start putting dog **** through their letter box etc. I've seen it all on A Wing.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 05:24 PM
No. In life. You know the kind of thing - a girlfriend leaves you so you sit in their garden at night or follow their new boyfriend, a neighbour parks in 'your' space so you start putting dog **** through their letter box etc. I've seen it all on A Wing.

At last ....the truth
Now we all know
& no I don't know the kind of thing

millmoormagic
14-10-2018, 05:38 PM
I'd look it up, but I have a life.


He writes, on a millers football message board, in a thread about climate change, arguing with a Barnsley fan, while on holiday...:sXDXD

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 05:42 PM
At last ....the truth
Now we all know
& no I don't know the kind of thing
Damn, you rumbled me. The truth is now out there for all to see.

Are you sure that you don't know? There was a bit of a pause whilst you asked for clarification upon whether I was referring to football forums...

Any examples of me being abusive to animal? It's a bit unrealistic of you to expect people to trawl through thread after thread. And to be honest I'm kind of curious myself.

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 05:55 PM
He writes, on a millers football message board, in a thread about climate change, arguing with a Barnsley fan, while on holiday...:sXDXD It's a bright person thing. Don't worry about it.

millmoormagic
14-10-2018, 06:02 PM
It's a bright person thing. Don't worry about it.

XD it's a sad person thing, i feel sorry for you to be honest, you must lead a very shallow life...

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 06:07 PM
I'm really sorry, MMM, I only have time to deal with one fool at a time and Exile got here before you.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 06:13 PM
Damn, you rumbled me. The truth is now out there for all to see.

Are you sure that you don't know? There was a bit of a pause whilst you asked for clarification upon whether I was referring to football forums...

Any examples of me being abusive to animal? It's a bit unrealistic of you to expect people to trawl through thread after thread. And to be honest I'm kind of curious myself.

You're the one who told us how easy it is
Just put it into the search box

millmoormagic
14-10-2018, 06:13 PM
I'm really sorry, MMM, I only have time to deal with one fool at a time and Exile got here before you.

Don't apologise kerr, it really doesn't suit your personality....it's pretty obvious to me, and i suspect increasingly to many others, that the further you get cornered during debates the more personal you get....

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 06:21 PM
Calls us fools & this coming from someone who models himself on a fictitious conceited character from a third rate piece of make belief

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 06:24 PM
You're the one who told us how easy it is
Just put it into the search boxSo that's a no then? You encourage people to look for examples of me being abusive to animal, but get all evasive when asked for an example...

I have to admit to disappointment.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 06:32 PM
So that's a no then? You encourage people to look for examples of me being abusive to animal, but get all evasive when asked for an example...

I have to admit to disappointment.

I told you to look back on the Barnsley board never ever suggested that I would but there you go again
Don't think you realise you're doing it

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 06:44 PM
I told you to look back on the Barnsley board never ever suggested that I would but there you go again
Don't think you realise you're doing itI know full well what you said. I'm trying to help you. If there are examples of me being abusive to animal surely it's in your interests to give them in order to demonstrate what a beast I am? Come on. Most people have stopped reading this thread. Surely you want to stimulate a bit of interest? It's all terribly disappointing, just like when 'good man' Kempo ran his 'Kerravon revealed' thread

gm_gm
14-10-2018, 06:47 PM
X
I'm really sorry, MMM, I only have time to deal with one fool at a time and Exile got here before you.

....enjoyed that one XD

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 06:47 PM
Just can't help it can you Kerr?

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 06:59 PM
Exile likes anyone who doesn't like me (I know it's hard to believe, but there is the odd one or two such people about). I think I upset him at some point in the past.

Roly finds himself in esteemed company. Exile popped up last year to call Kempo a 'good man' after the good doctor had become upset with me for one thing or another.

Don't dislike anyone on here not even you Kerr. Some I like better than others of course. Even I feel sorry for you for the stick you are getting on here at the moment but you can stop bringing it on yourself by showing a bit more compassion for people worse off than yourself.Put yourself in their shoes. Its all about having your heart in the right place.

No one is asking or expecting you to join Momentum, vote Labour etc but maybe you should consider why people feel they have a need to. Some people's lives are pretty crap through no fault of their own.

A bit of friendly advice there from Uncle Roly take it or leave it.

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 07:07 PM
Well i'll give this to you, Roly, you landed the first punch of the night by feeling sorry for me.

That was a low blow. I can deal with the brains trust without that sort of nonsense.

ragingpup
14-10-2018, 07:08 PM
He writes, on a millers football message board, in a thread about climate change, arguing with a Barnsley fan, while on holiday...:sXDXD

Lol

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 07:16 PM
Well I tried...:s

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 07:20 PM
Well i'll give this to you, Roly, you landed the first punch of the night by feeling sorry for me.

That was a low blow. I can deal with the brains trust without that sort of nonsense.

Well that should teach you Roly

Kerr & compassion, empathy, sympathy call it what you will, are strangers

millmoormagic
14-10-2018, 07:20 PM
X

....enjoyed that one XD

All the little things pleasing small minds then gm!!:P

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 07:22 PM
Yep, its all a bit sad Exile.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 07:26 PM
I honestly think he's not wired right Roly

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 07:27 PM
Well I tried...:sI didn't need your help, Roly. Sure, I could make compassionate noises whilst doing exactly nowt, just like you when you talk about the environment. Or maybe I could actually make a difference every now and then.

P.s. you could check out Exile's posts about Muslim people, but be warned, it will involve you using selective blindness, just like it does with animal.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 07:31 PM
I didn't need your help, Roly. Sure, I could make compassionate noises whilst doing nowt, just like you when you talk about the environment. Or maybe I could actually make a difference every now and then.

You don't make compassionate noises & still do nowt but I do think you are feuding [with anyone who has a different view to yours]
It's your raison d'etre

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 07:39 PM
I didn't need your help, Roly. Sure, I could make compassionate noises whilst doing exactly nowt, just like you when you talk about the environment. Or maybe I could actually make a difference every now and then.

P.s. you could check out Exile's posts about Muslim people, but be warned, it will involve you using selective blindness, just like it does with animal.

My My we are getting desperate aren't we?

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 07:54 PM
I'm in pieces, Exile. Brought to the brink by your forensic skills.

What are your views on Islam? Say what you want - raging will go all earnest and congratulate you on your honesty.

Any examples of me being abusive to animal?

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 07:57 PM
How do you know I do exactly nowt? I wondered who that guy was at the end of our road in dark glasses and with a pair of binoculars.

Come on stop being silly, put your lap top away, have an early night and start again tomorrow.

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 08:01 PM
As I explained earlier, I only have my phone. I'm enjoying it and, yes, that may seem a bit mean, but experiences within my work tells me that the only way to deal with stalking is to look it in the eye and take it on.

rolymiller
14-10-2018, 08:10 PM
Come on Kerr. If your on hol, turn your lap top off, go and have a pint and curse certain posters on MMad if you want but chill out a bit.

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 08:13 PM
I wouldn't curse anyone. It's just words. And I still don't have a laptop.

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 08:13 PM
I'm in pieces, Exile. Brought to the brink by your forensic skills.

What are your views on Islam? Say what you want - raging will go all earnest and congratulate you on your honesty.

Any examples of me being abusive to animal?

Any examples of my posts about Muslims

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 08:15 PM
As I explained earlier, I only have my phone. I'm enjoying it and, yes, that may seem a bit mean, but experiences within my work tells me that the only way to deal with stalking is to look it in the eye and take it on.

He is not wired right
Rattle the bars with your night stick Kerr
In the mean time get real
& why do you feel the need to bring Raging into it, some might even accuse you of stalking [whatever that means]

millmoormagic
14-10-2018, 08:17 PM
Any examples of my posts about Muslims

tick tock.......

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 08:51 PM
I'm in pieces, Exile. Brought to the brink by your forensic skills.

What are your views on Islam? Say what you want - raging will go all earnest and congratulate you on your honesty.

Any examples of me being abusive to animal?

So you don't recall pouring scorn & derision on his previous place of work/employment

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 09:04 PM
Well I like you very much, Exile.

I'm sorry for being vague, but I really can't recall how I initially upset you. And let's be honest, you probably can't either given the number of feuds you tend to start.

As for Kempo, I used to really enjoy his posts, but upset him initially by correcting him on the terms of the Abortion Act of all things. Thereafter, he just wanted to pick fights with me. I can't recall what in particular had upset him when you weighed in to tell him that he was a 'good man'. I'd look it up, but I have a life.

You see Kerr that's the difference between us
I can quite easily without fear of being accused of insincerity by stating I don't like you & it's not a crime
Whereas you are quite happy to lie about your sincerity

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 09:05 PM
So you don't recall pouring scorn & derision on his previous place of work/employmentTricky as I have no idea where he used to work or what he did

Link? Or do you just want to keep making a tit of yourself?

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 09:23 PM
I think you do Kerr
I know let's ask him

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 09:34 PM
I was wondering if he would check in and comment. He may have died of embarrassment though.

KerrAvon
14-10-2018, 09:50 PM
Just out of interest what did he do for a living? I'm genuinely intrigued.

John2
14-10-2018, 10:13 PM
Whichever battery type, they still had to be charged up and a considerable amount (somewhere around 25% I believe) of that charging would achieve nothing more than lugging the battery around as they weighed over half a tonne. That's a lot of fossil fuel to be burned so that the drivers could feel worthy. That's the significance of the power to weight ratio.

Doesn't quite work like that, once you've got the momentum adding extra weight doesn't have as big an impact on the fuel economy as you might imagine, this is something I learned converting a campervan. A person who understands the physics explained it to me in more detail, but I can say that not far from doubling the weight of the van probably took the fuel economy from 39mpg to 33mpg.


It's hardly surprising that the car could only carry two people with no luggage. It's also no surprise that GM decided to, ahem, pull the plug on what could never have been a commercial success.

You ignore the fact that while the EV1 was a first generation experiment (with 270L of boot space as it happens), Toyota deemed it succesful enough to create a NIMH battery powered RAV4... and the only thing that stopped them selling it was getting sued by the oil company that owned the patents to NIMH battery technology. There was a waiting list of disappointed buyers.


There was nothing straw man in my post. I was making the point that electric vehicle technology doesn't meet the needs of anyone other than for a local commutes. Do electric car fetishists think we should all have two cars - one for short jaunts and one for longer trips? That would be good for the environment...

Since the majority of trips are local commutes, that's an incredibly huge market you casually dismiss. The rise of the electric car now there is a viable battery that hasn't been patent encumbered demonstrates this.

You've ironically managed to throw a straw man into that paragraph, I doubt electric car advocates are promoting 2 car households. These days car sharing clubs are growing hugely, I'd personally think a far better and probably cost effective solution would be renting a car for long journeys, though this is more accessible in cities where I'd guess many people are within 10 mins walk of a club car. Though batteries can be charged quickly enough (30 mins) and the infrastructure is widespread enough these days that long trips increasingly shouldn't be an issue.

millmoormagic
14-10-2018, 10:54 PM
So, backtracking a little to before Kerr once again made a thread all about him, our choices are clear, we really do need to act now, and whether we like it or not, we all are going to need to make sacrifices, all the talk about battery powered cars is good and is all part and parcel of what we need to do, but look at it logically, the cars have limited range, and always will have. This is where public transport comes in, vastly improve the service, electrify it where possible, pedestrianise town/city centres, it's the only way...

Exiletyke
14-10-2018, 11:12 PM
Just out of interest what did he do for a living? I'm genuinely intrigued.

He used to work for LBC

animallittle3
14-10-2018, 11:18 PM
So, backtracking a little to before Kerr once again made a thread all about him, our choices are clear, we really do need to act now, and whether we like it or not, we all are going to need to make sacrifices, all the talk about battery powered cars is good and is all part and parcel of what we need to do, but look at it logically, the cars have limited range, and always will have. This is where public transport comes in, vastly improve the service, electrify it where possible, pedestrianise town/city centres, it's the only way...

Mankind is only passing through this planet just as the dinosaurs were before us .

Mankind may disappear just as the dinosaurs did but the planet will eventually recover and other forms of life will take our place .

Whilst mankind has prospered through technology it's also come at a price , it always does because nobody has it all , there is always a price to be paid somewhere along the way .

I haven't any reason not to believe the science , I'd possibly question the 12 years which is probably more a heads up statement and place it possibly around 30 years , just my humble opinion .

Mankind won't change it's.ways , to save ourselves you need the.collective will , political parties putting economies before doing the smart thing , the electorate changing their lifestyles massively , I don't see it myself .

It's all about today , the here and now with mankind and it's difficult to imagine such a drastic change within society in my opinion that will save the planet .

As I said earlier we humans are only passing through and it is what it is .

rolymiller
15-10-2018, 07:27 AM
Yep it is difficult to see human beings changing their ways quickly enough to save the planet be it in 12 or 30 years. Somebody mentioned world war which could be very well a consequence of nations fighting for and over scarce resources. World war in a perverse sense could be a quick but nasty way of saving mankind. Once the dust had settled (probably radio active stuff) the few humans who survived would have the planet to themselves and hopefully start making a better fist of it this time learning from the mistakes of the past. This could very well be our future. We could really do with the equivalent of someone/ something banging our collective heads together as a species to get it all sorted.

millmoormagic
15-10-2018, 08:50 AM
Yep it is difficult to see human beings changing their ways quickly enough to save the planet be it in 12 or 30 years. Somebody mentioned world war which could be very well a consequence of nations fighting for and over scarce resources. World war in a perverse sense could be a quick but nasty way of saving mankind. Once the dust had settled (probably radio active stuff) the few humans who survived would have the planet to themselves and hopefully start making a better fist of it this time learning from the mistakes of the past. This could very well be our future. We could really do with the equivalent of someone/ something banging our collective heads together as a species to get it all sorted.

That's already happening mate, Iraq was all about oil, so is Syria, Iran is next in the firing line

gm_gm
15-10-2018, 09:37 AM
Like what he said
if that is simple enough for you to understand

Its the way you seem to jump on certain posts and try to fit your head up their @rses, especially when the posts are themed against certain posters.


Not a fan of childish sycophantic posts

KerrAvon
15-10-2018, 10:28 AM
Doesn't quite work like that, once you've got the momentum adding extra weight doesn't have as big an impact on the fuel economy as you might imagine, this is something I learned converting a campervan. A person who understands the physics explained it to me in more detail, but I can say that not far from doubling the weight of the van probably took the fuel economy from 39mpg to 33mpg.



You ignore the fact that while the EV1 was a first generation experiment (with 270L of boot space as it happens), Toyota deemed it succesful enough to create a NIMH battery powered RAV4... and the only thing that stopped them selling it was getting sued by the oil company that owned the patents to NIMH battery technology. There was a waiting list of disappointed buyers.



Since the majority of trips are local commutes, that's an incredibly huge market you casually dismiss. The rise of the electric car now there is a viable battery that hasn't been patent encumbered demonstrates this.

You've ironically managed to throw a straw man into that paragraph, I doubt electric car advocates are promoting 2 car households. These days car sharing clubs are growing hugely, I'd personally think a far better and probably cost effective solution would be renting a car for long journeys, though this is more accessible in cities where I'd guess many people are within 10 mins walk of a club car. Though batteries can be charged quickly enough (30 mins) and the infrastructure is widespread enough these days that long trips increasingly shouldn't be an issue.The issue is with creating the momentum, John. I only have school boy physics, but I do remember F=ma, which shows a linear relationship between mass and the force required to produce acceleration. Unless there is a non linear relationship between force and the energy required to produce the same, the position is clear. I'm not arguing with the notion that electric is efficient, however.

I'd need a decent law library to research the Chevron litigation, but on the face of it, Panasonic used somebody else's technology to make batteries for Toyota. What was Chevron supposed to do? I appreciate that you have bought into the theory that Chevron acquired the patents to suppress the technology, but my understanding is that their subsidiaries position was always that they would supply batteries on a scale that made it profitable for them.

I once read an article on the psychology of conspiracy theories. In a nutshell it suggested that people buy into them because they are more exciting than real life. Neither you nor I can know the truth behind Chevron's motives, but I like to bear that article in mind.

I certainly don't dismiss the fact that many journeys are local commutes. That very fact needs to be addressed if we are to deal with climate change. They are the journeys that are amenable to being ended by public transport, bicycles and walking.

Still no straw man, John. It was a reducto ad absurdum that I used.

Enjoy your holiday.

KerrAvon
15-10-2018, 10:33 AM
He used to work for LBCWho or what is LBC and do you have an example of me pouring 'scorn and derision' on animal over his emploment there?

I have no idea what you are talking about and the poster himself appears to be maintaining a (rather dignified) silence on the issue.

KerrAvon
15-10-2018, 10:39 AM
Yep it is difficult to see human beings changing their ways quickly enough to save the planet be it in 12 or 30 years. Somebody mentioned world war which could be very well a consequence of nations fighting for and over scarce resources. World war in a perverse sense could be a quick but nasty way of saving mankind. Once the dust had settled (probably radio active stuff) the few humans who survived would have the planet to themselves and hopefully start making a better fist of it this time learning from the mistakes of the past. This could very well be our future. We could really do with the equivalent of someone/ something banging our collective heads together as a species to get it all sorted.But again, you are looking for others to act or coerce you into action rather than using your initiative. I know you don't like me making the point (and Exile seems to like it less), but you acknowledge that you could change and could do it easily, but then don't.

If everyone takes that line, we really are screwed.


You could start with a couple of meat free days a week and discover the delights of lentils, chick peas and flatulence.

KerrAvon
15-10-2018, 10:44 AM
That's already happening mate, Iraq was all about oil, so is Syria, Iran is next in the firing line Syria is not a major player in oil production terms. That conflict is about geo-politics Russia wants naval and air bases in the Mediterranean and Syria provides them.

If it's resource conflicts that you are after, look ahead to the ones over lithium for all the batteries John wants to build. The Chinese are quietly building a monopoly on it's mining.

rolymiller
15-10-2018, 11:55 AM
But again, you are looking for others to act or coerce you into action rather than using your initiative. I know you don't like me making the point (and Exile seems to like it less), but you acknowledge that you could change and could do it easily, but then don't.

If everyone takes that line, we really are screwed.


You could start with a couple of meat free days a week and discover the delights of lentils, chick peas and flatulence.


This all sounds a bit greatfire fascist stuff to me Kerr. Even he would be on my side!

Will you be checking at the end of the week?

What's the world coming to ? A sort of environmental fascism? Never knew these Greens had it in em...like it >;)

(Its all a bit mumsyish as well: "Eat yer greens! They are good for ya!")

millmoormagic
15-10-2018, 12:06 PM
Syria is not a major player in oil production terms. That conflict is about geo-politics Russia wants naval and air bases in the Mediterranean and Syria provides them.

If it's resource conflicts that you are after, look ahead to the ones over lithium for all the batteries John wants to build. The Chinese are quietly building a monopoly on it's mining.

Syria is a major player in terms of the immediate area, Israel included, and lets not forget the major gas pipeline issue also, there may be a clue as to why all this kicked off, of course Russia has a part in it, they're the major ally of the country and as you say it gives them operational strategic footprint.

Ironic that you mention the Lithium, Afghanistan has huge deposits, alongside other metals, i don't suppose the yanks and ourselves went to war there for any other reason, do you?

KerrAvon
15-10-2018, 01:00 PM
This all sounds a bit greatfire fascist stuff to me Kerr. Even he would be on my side!

Will you be checking at the end of the week?

What's the world coming to ? A sort of environmental fascism? Never knew these Greens had it in em...like it >;)

(Its all a bit mumsyish as well: "Eat yer greens! They are good for ya!") How is me suggesting that you actually do something instead of wringing your hands, and forecasting the end of world 'fascist'? You are simply obsessed with the word.

It was you who said that you could easily give up meat and live a more austere lifestyle in order to help the fight against climate change. So why won't you?

I'm not sure which is worse, being compared to gf, or being accused of being Kempo as you did a few months ago...

Exiletyke
15-10-2018, 01:14 PM
Its the way you seem to jump on certain posts and try to fit your head up their @rses, especially when the posts are themed against certain posters.


Not a fan of childish sycophantic posts






gm_gm


X
Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
I'm really sorry, MMM, I only have time to deal with one fool at a time and Exile got here before you.



....enjoyed that one




Do you mean like this one ?

Glass houses springs to mind!!

rolymiller
15-10-2018, 01:18 PM
Kerr, Kerr, Kerr you're like a dog with a bone! Why do you want to keep picking an argument with me?


You're worse than
our lass and that's saying summat!


10891











You keep saying the same thing! I know what you mean!

I'm trying to be nice. I really am.

Try some of these :D:D: and a bit of this :heart:





I try to tolerate your human frailties please tolerate some of mine!

I will try to cut down on my meat intake now you can try to persuade the other 7.5 billion minus one to do the same. I suspect it will not stop us going over the edge but if it shuts you up for a while...

Good luck!

Now will you leave me alone perleeeasse...

KerrAvon
15-10-2018, 01:56 PM
Kerr, Kerr, Kerr you're like a dog with a bone! Why do you want to keep picking an argument with me?


You're worse than
our lass and that's saying summat!


10891











You keep saying the same thing! I know what you mean!

I'm trying to be nice. I really am.

Try some of these :D:D: and a bit of this :heart:





I try to tolerate your human frailties please tolerate some of mine!

I will try to cut down on my meat intake now you can try to persuade the other 7.5 billion minus one to do the same. I suspect it will not stop us going over the edge but if it shuts you up for a while...

Good luck!

Now will you leave me alone perleeeasse...Lol. I'm not picking an argument with you, I'm genuinely interested in why you think the world has to change when you can't/won't? Why you lecture gf for being a denier when, on the face of it, your wlingness to actually do something is similar to his? It's fascinating. It really is.

Anyway, I see that you might actually get round to thinking about your meat consumption. That's got to be a good thing.

rolymiller
15-10-2018, 02:07 PM
Hurray ..(a victory of sorts-well the best i could hope for!)

kerr: You are my flippin' hero!
10892

great_fire
15-10-2018, 02:26 PM
Hypocrisy is not solely a left-wing trait but they seem to be the worst ones for not recognising it.

rolymiller
15-10-2018, 02:55 PM
Well after all these side shows of doom and gloom during the international break we can now all look forward to Saturday and re commencing the football season with....erm...more doom and gloom?.;D

Come on the millers! Who cares about the end of the world when we can get 3 points against Bolton!

I'm feeling better already!

monty_rhodes
16-10-2018, 06:24 AM
Roly, on a slightly different point where do you stand on Nelson's Column (figuratively of course)? Are you a supporter of the Guardian campaign led by Afua Hirsch?

rolymiller
16-10-2018, 08:01 AM
Just seen this article kerr. At first I thought your drive towards being veggies looks a good thing but... http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160926-what-would-happen-if-the-world-suddenly-went-vegetarian

rolymiller
16-10-2018, 08:21 AM
Monty: had a quick look at the article. Being a bit ignorant about Nelson bar the basics i was quite shocked about what a baddie this guy actually was. Bit lik e the Columbus thing. Based on what I have read here, yes his statue should come down.When Saddam's statue came down everybody applauded this and rightly so there really ain't much difference for me. It's funny the sort of people we idolise and iconise in this country. I was in cardiff earlier in this year and saw the bevan statue. Now he did deserve his erection! I was hoping that mmad members might club together and put up a statue of me outside footymad towers when I pop me clogs! ;D

That would be my gut reaction to your question. I am willing to listen to a different argument if you have one! I'm a more delicate flower than Kerr so I don't want to suffer your vitriol!

animallittle3
16-10-2018, 08:24 AM
Monty: had a quick look at the article. Being a bit ignorant about Nelson bar the basics i was quite shocked about what a baddie this guy actually was. Bit lik e the Columbus thing. Based on what I have read here, yes his statue should come down.When Saddam's statue came down everybody applauded this and rightly so there really ain't much difference for me. It's funny the sort of people we utilise and iconise in this country. I was in cardiff earlier in this year and saw the bevan statue. Now he did deserve his erection! I was hoping that mmad members might club together and put up a statue of me outside forums towers when I pop me clogs! ��

We can both split Karl Marx in Highgate cemetery roly when our time comes !!

:-) :-)

rolymiller
16-10-2018, 08:35 AM
I know that this will rile a few on here but that is a statue you shouldn't remove.

Go gentle on me kerr...

Exiletyke
16-10-2018, 08:43 AM
We can both split Karl Marx in Highgate cemetery roly when our time comes !!

:-) :-)

I heard that Marx's grave in Highgate is just another communist plot Animal
In response to Roly's comment I made the same point a year or two back re Bevans statue in Cardiff & was actually surprised that no statue exists in London [well I don't think so] where it should [I bet we will see one to Thatcher eventually though]
It might be an interesting to see how many of our "famous" statues have been erected by Tory administrations compared to Labour
Just a thought

rolymiller
16-10-2018, 09:02 AM
I think there is one of Thatcher somewhere exile . Didn't some demonstrators once put some paint on it. I may be wrong.

Yep a quick search of Google reveals this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/margaret-thatcher-statue-blocked/

Another one to come down methinks. I don't half live dangerously me!

Oh hang on I've misread it it was never put up. Phew!

monty_rhodes
16-10-2018, 09:23 AM
There is no difference between Afua Hirsch and the rent-a-mob of student activists now prowling universities for any hint of past bad behaviour (bad by their lights of course) and the Muslim extremists blowing up ancient monuments. Is Abraham Lincoln safe?

KerrAvon
16-10-2018, 10:25 AM
Just seen this article kerr. At first I thought your drive towards being veggies looks a good thing but... http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160926-what-would-happen-if-the-world-suddenly-went-vegetarianThe article lists the many benefits that would flow from a drastic reduction in meat consumption. I'm sure you noticed that you could actually go some way to offsetting the environmental cost of your two cars if you cut down on your consumption.

Of course there is a cost when there are significant changes to an economy. Those engaged in UK coal mining have paid it in the last thirty years or so, canal workers paid it when rail and later road took over and so on. I'm sure that fletchers were hit when muskets came along...

My facist suggestion yesterday was for two meat free days per week. Surely that's a decent start.

KerrAvon
16-10-2018, 10:28 AM
I know that this will rile a few on here but that is a statue you shouldn't remove.

Go gentle on me kerr...I don't think Marx could have forseen the harm and misery that would flow and are still flowing from his writings. You'd like to think he would have tried straight fiction if he had.

KerrAvon
16-10-2018, 10:32 AM
I heard that Marx's grave in Highgate is just another communist plot Animal
In response to Roly's comment I made the same point a year or two back re Bevans statue in Cardiff & was actually surprised that no statue exists in London [well I don't think so] where it should [I bet we will see one to Thatcher eventually though]
It might be an interesting to see how many of our "famous" statues have been erected by Tory administrations compared to Labour
Just a thought There haven't been many Labour administrations, so the number will be significantly fewer. I think quite a few Labour councils have celebrated Nelson Mandela in one way or another though

animallittle3
16-10-2018, 10:36 AM
Which government would be brave enough to limit one car per household for instance ?

The car industry and associated companies would go in to meltdown with the loss of jobs impacting massively .

What about meat rationing as in war time ? , yet again job losses in the associated industries would be a catastrophe .

The world's not set up to bring in the necessary change science says is needed .

For every person who limits their lifestyles perhaps 15 won't bother so that won't work either .

Let's face it , the planet is screwed and I don't see how anything can be done to save it .

KerrAvon
16-10-2018, 11:07 AM
You could ask which government would seize 10% of all decent sized public companies without compensation, but that appears to be what Labour are proposing.

Then again, if you think the world is fuqed already, why are you so bothered with politics? Surely you should be partying and consuming like a mad thing?

great_fire
16-10-2018, 11:58 AM
I don't think Marx could have forseen the harm and misery that would flow and are still flowing from his writings. You'd like to think he would have tried straight fiction if he had.

It's cultural Marxism/ Critical Theory/ Political Correctness that's doing the real damage.

It's a virus that was unleashed by the Soviets and seems unstoppable, hollowing out institutions and destroying society, family, religion, every loyalty that people have that's not to the state.

Marx thought that the proletariat would rise up and take over. The cultural Marxists said that this didn't happen because existing institutions were too strong and well-established and needed to be destroyed first. They also believed that a coalition of aggrieved minorities would be the ones to lead the revolution not the working classes.

That's what we see now, hollowed out institutions and ever-increasing grievance politics.