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Thread: Was D-Day.....Dispensable ?

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  1. #1
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    Was D-Day.....Dispensable ?

    .


    before the storming of the Normandy beaches.....the allies were involved in a strategic bombing campaign - Nazi Germany's ability to wage war was being systematically destroyed by this allied bomber offensive - placing the German ability to wage War... on the verge of collapse - was there truly a need for a ground offensive ?

    OVERLORD: The Unnecessary Invasion.....

    by

    William F. Moore
    Lieutenant Colonel, USAF


    In the spring of 1944 all Allied air power in Britain was placed temporarily under the direction of Gen Eisenhower, and he instructed it to isolate the proposed invasion beaches -- and for purposes of security and deception, other beaches where the Germans might expect landings -- from assistance from the interior of France and Europe, by ruining the transportation systems.

    This tasking was especially disruptive to the strategic bombing campaign, since it required the preservation of deception concerning the actual Normandy invasion site. In practical terms, this meant that for every bomb dropped on transportation links which supported the Normandy area, two more had to be dropped in other areas, especially in the Pas de Calais area, which Patton's fictitious army was "preparing to invade." In essence, the strategic bombing campaign was terminated for over six months, at the precise point in time when it had finally become effective.


    Air Corps generals who planned and commanded the strategic bombing campaign are scathing in their criticism of this diversion. Maj Gen Heywood Hansell who prepared the operational plan for the strategic air campaign has this to say of the use of the strategic bombers to support OVERLORD,

    ....Gen Eisenhower retained control of those forces for six crucial months when they could have been most effective against systems in interior Germany. As a result of these delays and diversions, the massive air offensive against the selected primary targets did not really begin until September of 1944 -- ten months late and three months after the invasion. ... The strategic air forces were finally returned to their primary objectives in October. In the next four months, the strategic air forces completed all the remaining strategic purposes originally proposed.



    Gen Curtis LeMay who was commanding the Eighth Air Force in England at the time has stated...."Neither for that matter, did I agree with the decision to invade Europe. I believed that once we had the complete upper hand in the air we could have waited for an inevitable German collapse." He has further commented that without this diversion and interruption, the strategic air forces could have completed the destruction of Germany before Normandy.

    Albert Speer, the German Minister of Production. stated, "Thus the Allies threw away success when it was already in their hands." Speer goes on to state that had these raids been continued, "Armaments production would have been crucially weakened after two months and after four months would have been brought completely to a standstill."

    Some assume the allied decision to proceed with OVERLORD was based on a desire to limit Russian territorial gains to eastern Europe. This rather Machiavellian rationale probably has more validity than a purely military one, but it also has several deficiencies. First of all, it was not apparent in late 1943 that Germany would fight to the bitter end. It was conceivable that surrender, rather than destruction would be chosen at some point prior to Russian invasion of German territory. Occupation forces would then have entered Germany unopposed, and it is reasonable to assume that American and British forces would have been given preference. Secondly, even if the Germans did not surrender, continuing attrition on the eastern front would gradually have resulted in the transfer of German forces out of France, so British and American forces would have faced little or no opposition to a deferred landing there. This was the contingency covered by the war plan known as RANKIN. It provided for a very rapid invasion and advance across France in the event of an imminent collapse of the German government. There is no question that Hitler would have expended his last resources fighting the Russians for Berlin rather than British and American forces for France and western Germany. Had British and American strategists been truly Machiavellian in their deliberations concerning OVERLORD, they would have deferred the invasion and waited for a later opportunity when they would have faced little or no opposition.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books/abo...AJ&redir_esc=y



    ..


  2. #2
    The Nazi's wouldn't have given up with bombing alone they just wouldn't have seen it as an option they would have thought nothing of letting entire citys burn, once the red army got itself together it was a race to Berlin and we had to be a part of it, if we hadn't what would have stopped them carrying on to the seaside if they had wanted too. Imagine how many more people would have perished in the Camps had we waited another 6 12 months and how many more innocent civilians would have perished in the bombings had we relied on them alone to try and bring the Nazis to the table. I think we got it right.

  3. #3
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    I agree with Whitty.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1959_60 View Post
    I agree with Whitty.
    So do I!
    It is the easiest thing in the world to quote things, however, all the other commanders are quoting about what might be--there is no certainty. D-Day was put into operation and was successful in bringing to an end a horrible war. We can all surmise whether it was right or wrong, however, it is all part of history and happenednad it is not a case of what might have been!
    My only thought is that it would never happen in this day and age --they would be discussing the pros and cons for a minimm of twenty years in case they upset someone!

  5. #5
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    Me too.
    Stalin was urging Churchill as early as July 1941 to open a second front in France against Germany. There was simply no possibility of undertaking such a task at that time. Britain would not be victorious against a German Army until El Alamein in late 1942.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by whittyclaretandblue View Post
    The Nazi's wouldn't have given up with bombing alone they just wouldn't have seen it as an option they would have thought nothing of letting entire citys burn.....
    I think thats a subjective opinion - Whitty.... .

    Quote Originally Posted by whittyclaretandblue View Post
    once the red army got itself together it was a race to Berlin and we had to be a part of it, if we hadn't what would have stopped them carrying on to the seaside
    that's what Patton thought - Eisenhower ordered his 3rd Army to stop as it reached the German border....to placate Stalin he said......did he think there was Collusion - Churchill visited moscow twice I beleive, in 42 and 44, they needed our aid....is estimated that British tanks made up between 30 - 40 % of the entire heavy and medium tank strength of Soviet forces securing Moscow at the beginning of December 1941.



    Quote Originally Posted by Supersub6 View Post
    So do I!
    It is the easiest thing in the world to quote things
    I know - if only I was there....I could quote myself instead of from others that were !

    Quote Originally Posted by Supersub6 View Post
    however, all the other commanders are quoting about what might be--there is no certainty. D-Day was put into operation and was successful in bringing to an end a horrible war. We can all surmise whether it was right or wrong, however, it is all part of history and happenednad it is not a case of what might have been!
    the other commanders were quoting about what might be ????....what does that mean Sub - as Commanders they were giving "their" opinion on the best course of action - ....so they were doing their job - some do it better than others....Butcher Haig springs to mind....what might have been eh !

    Quote Originally Posted by outwoodclaret View Post
    Me too.
    Stalin was urging Churchill as early as July 1941 to open a second front in France against Germany. There was simply no possibility of undertaking such a task at that time. Britain would not be victorious against a German Army until El Alamein in late 1942.
    Sledgehammer or Roundup - 42-43....possible, but they chose North Africa - the Jury's stiill out on that one too !

    Quote Originally Posted by alfinyalcabo View Post
    My dad was a royal marine commando and was severely wounded nearly killed on the Dieppe raid .. My grandfather was killed by the Germans in world war 1 .. I Phookin hated the square headed cnuts,but nowadays I can see they were under orders to do what they were told just the same as our lot..
    as many of us, same her Alf.....first and second - thanks for pointing out the truth of it all !

    Christmas Day Truce





    Cheers.

    Last edited by Norder; 05-06-2019 at 10:41 PM.

  7. #7
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    My dad was a royal marine commando and was severely wounded nearly killed on the Dieppe raid .. My grandfather was killed by the Germans in world war 1 .. I Phookin hated the square headed cnuts,but nowadays I can see they were under orders to do what they were told just the same as our lot..

  8. #8
    I don't think the Allies had much of a choice. We needed boots on the ground to halt the Russian invasion and try and get a share of the post war spoils.

    With the current posturing of the French, Germans, Belgians and Dutch regarding Brexit, I have to wonder if it was worth the sacrifice of thousands of Allied troops?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bedlington Terrier View Post
    I don't think the Allies had much of a choice. We needed boots on the ground to halt the Russian invasion and try and get a share of the post war spoils.

    With the current posturing of the French, Germans, Belgians and Dutch regarding Brexit, I have to wonder if it was worth the sacrifice of thousands of Allied troops?
    You can add the fifth columnists on this side of the Channel to that lot as well BT.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by sinkov View Post
    You can add the fifth columnists on this side of the Channel to that lot as well BT.
    I was waiting for you to chirp in with that one sinkov, it's all this chap's fault...

    Attachment 12875

    According to the Daily Mail the barsteward would not even sing "God Save the Queen" down in Portsmouth!

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