Wiedwald

[MrsORichSenior]

Jez - Honesty - Criticism - Abuse all have boundaries,so specially for you one last time I'll put (your perceived) my career high hats down for 'yer as it'll only proliferate matters.

Without going on and on ........ 'some get' the concept and 'some don't' but black and white can soon become grey and that is where once I earned a crust before moving career direction.Regarding football I've witnessed all 3 above (honesty,criticism,abuse) and have had one of my close friends and his family racially abused too with actual violence,a Leeds player abused by Leeds (so called) fans - hence my stance on the matter of criticism and how I see and value it.You appear to suggest that I take the high ground which I DO NOT,I'm just taking an honest perspective,okay,as I'm an open book.So ........ regarding player(s).

1.Constructive criticism.......

................. is more useful. It is when someone makes sure they understand all sides of the situation before offering an informed opinion. As they offer there viewpoint they clarify the positives as well as the negatives and make it clear they are only offering their own take on things. This allows the receiver of the feedback to see ways forward, and to feel supported over judged.

Summary: Criticism can be useful if presented in a fair way, although most of us tend to forget this and present it a way that comes across as judgement. So criticism can be hurtful, despite the fact that we are trying to improve a situation or help the other person.

2.Fair Opinions criticisms ...............

.......... judgement on Felix being in accordance with relative merit or significance so free from favouritism, self-interest, or preference in judgment. Observations that appeared lacking,IMO,expressed about Felix.

Summary: Fair comment is for me - are facts to back up 'he is poor' - 'he earns to much' - 'he cost us point' - 'defence don't rate him' etc.Even any technical evidence was not evident amongst opinions expressed,IMO.

3.Verbal/Written abuse..............

............. also referred to as ’emotional abuse’, could technically be called criticism, as the person is pointing out negatives.

The difference here is that a person who verbally/addresses abuses at another has no intention of seeing the POSITIVE side, considering the other’s viewpoint, or helping them improve.The case being our keeper in this respect.

Verbal/Written abuse tends to criticise you as a person, not just what you did and the consequences of the action.

Summary: Like all forms of abuse, verbal/written abuse is actually a way to take power over another by belittling or hurting them,IMO.

*I agree with you that criticism has limits (Twitter eg) but I stick to my point that 'Constructive Criticism' was not forthcoming -
I gave honest balanced opinions,views,points bringing in logic balanced reasoning thus in my words Constructive Criticism.

As I told Orgs many years ago on another Forum - "You get what it says on the Can" with me.
So you can wait for another bus to get the answer you may want or get on the Leeds United bus and move forward which in time will get to 'our' desired location.
I've no beef with anyone,especially you so pm me if you wish to further any points I've made as I think 3 points,top 6,Christmas Eve,this Forum and Felix deserves a rest on the subject,for now okay.
Ps Your still on my Christmas card list as is everyone - Xx
ALAW - MOT

[BelfastAndy]

And he's got experience with crosses.

You're gonna fry boy....

[Jezleeds]

Jez - Honesty - Criticism - Abuse all have boundaries,so specially for you one last time I'll put (your perceived) my career high hats down for 'yer as it'll only proliferate matters.

Without going on and on ........ 'some get' the concept and 'some don't' but black and white can soon become grey and that is where once I earned a crust before moving career direction.Regarding football I've witnessed all 3 above (honesty,criticism,abuse) and have had one of my close friends and his family racially abused too with actual violence,a Leeds player abused by Leeds (so called) fans - hence my stance on the matter of criticism and how I see and value it.You appear to suggest that I take the high ground which I DO NOT,I'm just taking an honest perspective,okay,as I'm an open book.So ........ regarding player(s).

1.Constructive criticism.......

................. is more useful. It is when someone makes sure they understand all sides of the situation before offering an informed opinion. As they offer there viewpoint they clarify the positives as well as the negatives and make it clear they are only offering their own take on things. This allows the receiver of the feedback to see ways forward, and to feel supported over judged.

Summary: Criticism can be useful if presented in a fair way, although most of us tend to forget this and present it a way that comes across as judgement. So criticism can be hurtful, despite the fact that we are trying to improve a situation or help the other person.

2.Fair Opinions criticisms ...............

.......... judgement on Felix being in accordance with relative merit or significance so free from favouritism, self-interest, or preference in judgment. Observations that appeared lacking,IMO,expressed about Felix.

Summary: Fair comment is for me - are facts to back up 'he is poor' - 'he earns to much' - 'he cost us point' - 'defence don't rate him' etc.Even any technical evidence was not evident amongst opinions expressed,IMO.

3.Verbal/Written abuse..............

............. also referred to as ’emotional abuse’, could technically be called criticism, as the person is pointing out negatives.

The difference here is that a person who verbally/addresses abuses at another has no intention of seeing the POSITIVE side, considering the other’s viewpoint, or helping them improve.The case being our keeper in this respect.

Verbal/Written abuse tends to criticise you as a person, not just what you did and the consequences of the action.

Summary: Like all forms of abuse, verbal/written abuse is actually a way to take power over another by belittling or hurting them,IMO.

*I agree with you that criticism has limits (Twitter eg) but I stick to my point that 'Constructive Criticism' was not forthcoming -
I gave honest balanced opinions,views,points bringing in logic balanced reasoning thus in my words Constructive Criticism.

As I told Orgs many years ago on another Forum - "You get what it says on the Can" with me.
So you can wait for another bus to get the answer you may want or get on the Leeds United bus and move forward which in time will get to 'our' desired location.
I've no beef with anyone,especially you so pm me if you wish to further any points I've made as I think 3 points,top 6,Christmas Eve,this Forum and Felix deserves a rest on the subject,for now okay.
Ps Your still on my Christmas card list as is everyone - Xx
ALAW - MOT

Well thanks for re-stating previous points you've already made. You don't mention linking that horrendous tweet about Grot to the mild criticisms i and others made of the goalkeeper, whilst others are and have been many times free to make the same kind of criticisms of other players.

At least we agree on the disgraceful nature of the Grot tweet.

I don't do Christmas cards, but if i did, you'd still be on my list too and beef isn't my wish either - just consistency and fairness.

But hey, like you say, time to move on.

[whitestomper45]

And he's got experience with crosses.

And getting crucified on here would be no bother to him..

[CLIVETHELEEDSFAN]

How about talking about wiedwald considering that's what this thread is supposed to be about

Good performance against Hull, made some match winning saves considering we only scored one goal

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

Jez we get you have a different opinion as does WTF - I enjoy people having different points of view but I think Mrs O is trying to eloquently say celebrate that we can disagree but don’t necessarily try to beat the other person into submission. If everyone agreed on everything the world would be very boring indeed but there are ways of disagreeing I guess.

I get get you think Felix isn’t the best but from when I have watched him I think he has some tremendous qualities and his weaknesses can be worked on but that is only my view. I also understand you think not and also sometimes there are players who we just don’t like anyway - I can think of a few over the years who were alright but they annoyed me for reasons looking back I can’t completely rationalise - Hopkin was a good example.

Given it’s Christmas lets simply celebrate we all see thinks from a Leeds POV even if that POV has a spectrum of views within it. MOT

[Jezleeds]

Jez we get you have a different opinion as does WTF - I enjoy people having different points of view but I think Mrs O is trying to eloquently say celebrate that we can disagree but don’t necessarily try to beat the other person into submission. If everyone agreed on everything the world would be very boring indeed but there are ways of disagreeing I guess.

I get get you think Felix isn’t the best but from when I have watched him I think he has some tremendous qualities and his weaknesses can be worked on but that is only my view. I also understand you think not and also sometimes there are players who we just don’t like anyway - I can think of a few over the years who were alright but they annoyed me for reasons looking back I can’t completely rationalise - Hopkin was a good example.

Given it’s Christmas lets simply celebrate we all see thinks from a Leeds POV even if that POV has a spectrum of views within it. MOT

None of my posts to Mrs O have been about Weidwald for several posts.

I object to my (and other people's) reasonable criticism of one of our players being compared to that disgraceful tweet about Grot.

That's the only thing i've asked her to clarify and she hasn't done it.

What everyone thinks of our goalkeeper is, as you say, up to them. But equating evil trolling with rational criticism is a problem for me.

And before people start having a go at me for responding to this at Christmas, i had finished with this subject, but HO brought it back up again and has clearly not understood my point - just as Mrs O is yet to respond to it.

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

None of my posts to Mrs O have been about Weidwald for several posts.

I object to my (and other people's) reasonable criticism of one of our players being compared to that disgraceful tweet about Grot.

That's the only thing i've asked her to clarify and she hasn't done it.

What everyone thinks of our goalkeeper is, as you say, up to them. But equating evil trolling with rational criticism is a problem for me.

And before people start having a go at me for responding to this at Christmas, i had finished with this subject, but HO brought it back up again and has clearly not understood my point - just as Mrs O is yet to respond to it.

My Christmas present to both of you - free pass to move on and start a fresh with a clean slate - MOT

[Jezleeds]

My Christmas present to both of you - free pass to move on and start a fresh with a clean slate - MOT

Already did that before you brought it back up, but thanks and happy christmas to you mate.

[jimmybn]

He keeps fluking these clean sheets don't he . Even had the audacity to throw some flukey saves in against Hull . I'm sure his luck will run out soon though