O/T Prince Charles Tests Positive

[ramAnag]

I was accused of being a lefty yesterday in an FB discussion. The same contributor also thought that, as I no longer live in theUK, my thoughts were irrelevant and I had no right to give them. Fortunately, there are not meny on here who would agree with that. What had I said?

I applauded the government on their financial package to keep jobs and businesses going and there for the future as all will be necessary.

I was critical of BJ following Cummings' advice on herd immunity which was against the expert advice. I did say, as I have on here, that he is doing his best but that isn't good enough and most measures have been too little too late.

I was also critical of UK governments of all flavours who have neglected, over decades, to put a plan in place to deal with a pandemic despite the experience worldwide gained from SARS, MERS, Ebola etc.

The accusations were that I was a BJ hater (that bit is pretty close to the truth) and let that colour my views and that I was only critical of the Tories. I begged to differ as I had also praised the financial package and slated Labour and the LDs for their part in not having a plan in place.

Despite the odd wild view on here and the odd one placed merely to gain a reaction on here, we seem to be able to plough through without getting extreme towards each other.

IMO, the above views will ring true in many heads on this forum.

Maybe, in the light of certain recent allegations, you should be backing ‘Definitely Red’ in tomorrow’s virtual Grand National, MA.

Johnson might be best backing ‘The Storyteller’.

[ramAnag]

When you’re in a hole, best to stop digging, GP.

You made reference to this being the same as a War when you were frustrated by my criticism of some Government actions/inactions.
It isn’t the same, for the reasons that both Swale and I have pointed out, although I suspect both ‘flat feet’ Trump and wannabe Winston Johnson share that fantasy.
Tricky’s comment (#154) was about as funny as a dry cough on a crowded Tube.

1. Who has ‘demonised’ any individual according to their politics? That’s your assumption. For my own part I’ve criticised Johnson/the Government for their reaction to this crisis only. Beyond that my only ‘political’ comment has been that the NHS and police shortages happen to have developed since 2010.

2. How else do we ‘know/understand’ things other than by hearing and seeing things? Yes, of course you have to be selective in who you take notice of...but your ‘don’t criticise the individuals’ line is just bizarre. The same is probably true of all governments throughout history but whether it be Chamberlain or Churchill, Thatcher, Blair, Brown or Johnson it is unavoidable that the identified leaders will take responsibility for the achievements and catastrophes of their time in office.

3. Yes it is important to manage panic and the Government completely failed to both understand and manage the panic induced buying in the first week or so of this crisis.
Actually if you look at the steps that have been taken since the recognition of how serious this crisis actually is began to dawn, it is authorities other than the government who have, imo, acted most effectively.
Football has been stopped by the football authorities, Rugby by the ruling body of that sport, shops and shopping has been managed by shop workers and managers across the country, health centres have put their own protective measures in place and schools - which will continue to open for some throughout the holidays - have continued despite rather than because of Gavin Williamson.
We should be indebted to all those people but, imo, the government has been inept.

4. Again a comment just unworthy of someone who usually speaks sense. So, according to you, society is now dominated by the bollux that appears on social media so therefore it’s okay for the PM to ‘mangle the truth’ too. Really?

5. You’re an economist and I fully accept your concern, but in the here and now it’s testing and survival that are the ‘keys’.

6. Couldn’t agree more. What happens in places like India and various parts of the ‘Third World’ will be the key to what happens long after the virus is hopefully conquered/suppressed in the West. Another example of why we have to have a ‘One World’ response to this pandemic where the rich - not even for particularly altruistic reasons - have to consider those who are usually forgotten.

[Trickytreesreds]

This comparison with wartime is tiresome and irrelevant! We are not fighting a war, we are dealing with a virus and whislt the more excitable media types may have used the overhyped comparison, in reality the scenarios are totally different!

Plus we are in a different world from World war 2 when society basically did what those in power told them and mostly believed it. I can't believe you actually said "the truth gets inconveniently in the way" of people understanding? Thankfully these days most people can understand the facts if communicated to them correctly!

As for ****ing martians ye gods I despair!

How has his lies and cackhanded handling of this crisis stopped panic? In fact its done the opposite looking at what has happened.

Oh well I guess if your happy with a liar and buffoon as leader, then no doubt you will be happy with the mismanagement and wont complain at the adverse effects of such a idiot being in charge of the country!

Oh and on leadership, how come it took the government over a week after the Germans had done it to organise flights to repatriate Uk citizens abroad? In some cases German authorities were actually providing help and assistance to UK citizens, when none was forthcoming from the UK government. Talk about piss up brewery couldn't organise one and yet the apologists still come forward.

Truly in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king!

Sorry,but it is relevent and it is a war!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irus-frontline


When I mentioned the war(no not in an Uncle Albert way), I was on about mistakes made with planning and preperation.
People all over the world were caught with their pants down.
being caught with your pants down, doesn't mean you lost.
All the best laid plans in the world can never cover every contingency.

Where do you want to start? Every situation had fore warning, information of growing storm clouds. Information of intent.
Plans were made, how ever they fell well short of a prevention of impending doom.

Poland 1939
Ardennes 1939
Pearl Harbour 1941
Operation Barbarossa, after a non aggression pact 1941
Falklands 1982

Shall I go on?
History is riddled with non preperation in many forms, from military to financial.
No I'm not defending Johnson/Tories like a blind servent.
He's made mistakes and will make many more if I'm honest. But exactly who else do you propose may be doing a better job?
All I see is point scoring. By all means criticise, but seeing as this effects everyone. Perhaps, the phrase "can we help?" may be be more apt.

I'm not getting into a personal slagging match with you Swale, you hate Johnson/Tories. I get it.
I voted for them and stand by it, compared to what was on offer. Until something better comes along, I will continue to do so.

[ramAnag]

Sorry,but it is relevent and it is a war!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irus-frontline


When I mentioned the war(no not in an Uncle Albert way), I was on about mistakes made with planning and preperation.
People all over the world were caught with their pants down.
being caught with your pants down, doesn't mean you lost.
All the best laid plans in the world can never cover every contingency.

Where do you want to start? Every situation had fore warning, information of growing storm clouds. Information of intent.
Plans were made, how ever they fell well short of a prevention of impending doom.

Poland 1939
Ardennes 1939
Pearl Harbour 1941
Operation Barbarossa, after a non aggression pact 1941
Falklands 1982

Shall I go on?
History is riddled with non preperation in many forms, from military to financial.
No I'm not defending Johnson/Tories like a blind servent.
He's made mistakes and will make many more if I'm honest. But exactly who else do you propose may be doing a better job?
All I see is point scoring. By all means criticise, but seeing as this effects everyone. Perhaps, the phrase "can we help?" may be be more apt.

I'm not getting into a personal slagging match with you Swale, you hate Johnson/Tories. I get it.
I voted for them and stand by it, compared to what was on offer. Until something better comes along, I will continue to do so.

I’m pleased you don’t want to get into a slanging match, me neither...but you really don’t ‘get it’.

1) My reaction to what is going on has nothing to do with my dislike of many Tory policies. I was indeed disappointed with the results of the last election and, by consequence, the Brexit debate but they are irrelevant to this.
I suspect Swale feels much the same, but we’re not some sort of ‘double act’ and I don’t speak for him. You might also remember that last year, when Brexit appeared to be the most menacing thing on the horizon, I freely admitted that certain Tories were doing a better job of opposing Brexit than the totally confused Labour Party.

2) Okay...there are similarities to wartime in so much as there are food shortages, queues at shops, schools closing or partially closing, limits upon personal freedoms and factories being put to alternative use. That, I accept, is reminiscent of war time/general strike/fuel shortage etc.
Beyond that it is, imo, completely different. Far from there being a need for secrecy and covert alliance this is a time when World leaders need to act together.
There is a common enemy but it is an enemy of all humanity not one of individual nations and leaders presented by other nations and leaders.

Certain individuals apart, and I know you won’t like it but Merkel springs to mind, our World leaders have failed to cover themselves in glory so far.
The Chinese screwed up, before possibly displaying the required urgency, Trump has acted in a way more fitting of a Ben Elton novel and Johnson, imo, has - as has been outlined in many ways elsewhere on here - been contradictory (no pun intended) and ineffective.
Even today a combination of Trump (again), Putin and the Saudis have managed to send the price of oil spiralling which is really going to help.

In short Tricky...this is a Global crisis...so where’s the ‘kin leadership?

[swaledale]

Sorry,but it is relevent and it is a war!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irus-frontline


When I mentioned the war(no not in an Uncle Albert way), I was on about mistakes made with planning and preperation.
People all over the world were caught with their pants down.
being caught with your pants down, doesn't mean you lost.
All the best laid plans in the world can never cover every contingency.

Where do you want to start? Every situation had fore warning, information of growing storm clouds. Information of intent.
Plans were made, how ever they fell well short of a prevention of impending doom.

Poland 1939
Ardennes 1939
Pearl Harbour 1941
Operation Barbarossa, after a non aggression pact 1941
Falklands 1982

Shall I go on?
History is riddled with non preperation in many forms, from military to financial.
No I'm not defending Johnson/Tories like a blind servent.
He's made mistakes and will make many more if I'm honest. But exactly who else do you propose may be doing a better job?
All I see is point scoring. By all means criticise, but seeing as this effects everyone. Perhaps, the phrase "can we help?" may be be more apt.

I'm not getting into a personal slagging match with you Swale, you hate Johnson/Tories. I get it.
I voted for them and stand by it, compared to what was on offer. Until something better comes along, I will continue to do so.

Theres no point in having a slanging match with someone who essentially admits acting like a Turkey voting for Christmas because that was the best option! Mind you even when I try reasoned debate, its pointless because you either don't respond or evade the points raised anyway.

For your information I don't hate Johnson or the Tories - I wouldn't ever vote Tory even though I'm pretty sure that their policies would benefit me personally (indeed Brexit as I've said before has provided an unexpected financial windfall just when I was winding down) because I know that they wont create anything like the society I would wish to live in.

Indeed the current crisis is demonstrating graphically how the previous Tory policies have damaged this country. How they made the poorest sectors of society pay for the mistakes of the rich and bankers.

Funnily enough immigration seems not to be a hot topic (unless its that futile call to close borders ban air travel) as people realise 1 in 8 people in the health service are immigrants!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

When you’re in a hole, best to stop digging, GP.

You made reference to this being the same as a War when you were frustrated by my criticism of some Government actions/inactions.
It isn’t the same, for the reasons that both Swale and I have pointed out, although I suspect both ‘flat feet’ Trump and wannabe Winston Johnson share that fantasy.
Tricky’s comment (#154) was about as funny as a dry cough on a crowded Tube.

1. Who has ‘demonised’ any individual according to their politics? That’s your assumption. For my own part I’ve criticised Johnson/the Government for their reaction to this crisis only. Beyond that my only ‘political’ comment has been that the NHS and police shortages happen to have developed since 2010.

2. How else do we ‘know/understand’ things other than by hearing and seeing things? Yes, of course you have to be selective in who you take notice of...but your ‘don’t criticise the individuals’ line is just bizarre. The same is probably true of all governments throughout history but whether it be Chamberlain or Churchill, Thatcher, Blair, Brown or Johnson it is unavoidable that the identified leaders will take responsibility for the achievements and catastrophes of their time in office.

3. Yes it is important to manage panic and the Government completely failed to both understand and manage the panic induced buying in the first week or so of this crisis.
Actually if you look at the steps that have been taken since the recognition of how serious this crisis actually is began to dawn, it is authorities other than the government who have, imo, acted most effectively.
Football has been stopped by the football authorities, Rugby by the ruling body of that sport, shops and shopping has been managed by shop workers and managers across the country, health centres have put their own protective measures in place and schools - which will continue to open for some throughout the holidays - have continued despite rather than because of Gavin Williamson.
We should be indebted to all those people but, imo, the government has been inept.

4. Again a comment just unworthy of someone who usually speaks sense. So, according to you, society is now dominated by the bollux that appears on social media so therefore it’s okay for the PM to ‘mangle the truth’ too. Really?

5. You’re an economist and I fully accept your concern, but in the here and now it’s testing and survival that are the ‘keys’.

6. Couldn’t agree more. What happens in places like India and various parts of the ‘Third World’ will be the key to what happens long after the virus is hopefully conquered/suppressed in the West. Another example of why we have to have a ‘One World’ response to this pandemic where the rich - not even for particularly altruistic reasons - have to consider those who are usually forgotten.

On points 1 to 4 we aren't ever going to agree - you're more idealistic than, I'm more pragmatic. I don't doubt mistakes have been made, but I accept that these were inevitable in the circumstances. In the last 5 years you have done nothing but criticise BJ and previous blue governments over every decision they have made, starting with Brexit (before that this was a largely apolitical forum). In fairness you have also criticised most every leading politician! I'd say including LibDems, but they don't have any leading politicians.

Answer me this: who would you say would have handled it differently? The same advisers would have been supporting whichever government was in power, and I don't see how different advice would then have been given to Corbyn, Johnson, Sturgeon, Swinso, Farage or Howling Laud Hope.

Does BoJo bend the truth - of course, he is a politician. You can tell when any politician is lying by the fact that his lips move.

So I pose the question - do you genuinely believe that anyone would have dealt with it differently. And on what basis? Why would they have done differently when being reliant on same advisers?

[ramAnag]

Christ...have I been on here for five years? I really didn’t realise...must have a word with myself.

You sound like Tricky’s hacked your account. There weren’t, as you acknowledge, any political threads pre the Referendum and MoP started that less than four years ago, so five years of anti Johnson rhetoric on here from me or anyone else seems unlikely.

I’m still waiting for your Y/N answer from yesterday but you’ve chosen to avoid that (again) and ask me a question...’Who would have handled it differently?’
A. Well clearly the leaders of South Korea and Germany for starters, but it’s not really a question of who would have done what...it’s a question of what needs to be done now, and putting ego/national pride aside to learn from others.

I’m not sure of your point about politicians lying when their lips move. It’s an old joke and I do think there are a minority of politicians with some degree of integrity. Unfortunately Johnson isn’t, imo, one of them...a theory that is supported by his track record.

I’ve already answered your second question. Germany and South Korea have handled things differently...the same virus, the same pandemic, the same problem, the same WHO advice, but a seemingly different outcome...and that is the whole point.

You seem to think I have a personal vendetta against Johnson’s leadership and handling of this crisis...I don’t, but just as you have regularly questioned whether the likes of Chris Martin, Kelle Roos or FloJo (ooh a football reference...whatever next?) are the players to lead Derby to promotion, I question Johnson’s ability to lead us through this crisis.
As MA has suggested elsewhere...had he been in business he’d have been sacked by now, and the only thing that stops you recognising it is your stubbornness.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ok, 4 not 5, its a long time whichever.

My question means "who from amongst the UK leadership group" not other countries, where different local advisory groups (including common WHO advice) would have been involved. Germany did as Germany did because their experts seem to be better than ours, not because their leaders could announce it better (or lie better!)

Had Johnson been in business he may have been sacked, but if he had been he probably would also have been responsible for making the decisions and seeking specific expert advice. I contend that in his current role he contributed no more than merely announcing things.

I dont recall your question, but I'll go with yes

[ramAnag]

Okay...have it your own way.
In any other situation you’d readily concede that our achievements or failures would have to stand comparison with other countries...but heh ho...apparently not this one.

You asked ‘who would have handled things differently’...not ‘who from the current cabinet would have performed better’. It’s not a leadership contest and the point is...are we making the right decisions?

My question was...when Johnson made his brief video appearance yesterday he said...’the key to this...as I’ve been saying for months...is testing’.

My contention is that he was blatantly lying...he has not been saying anything of the sort for months. You said you ‘didn't care’. My question was, ‘was he lying’? Y/N. It’s not rocket science and it’s not a ‘trap’.

[Geoff Parkstone]

OK, well since I did not see his video appearance or any previous ones on the subject I cannot really say, but, given my previous assertion, and assuming the fact that his lips did move, I will stick with my earlier "yes". And I will also stick with my "dont care if he was" response, becuse if he was just trying to cover his arse, then way more astute observers than I can take him to task. But in the overall scheme of things, given the severity of the issues we face, I genuinely don't care if he was trying to rewrite history. Its what happens today and tomorrow that matter, you cant change the past: "Back to the Future" is a film, not real life.

Same way with Blair and "Weapons of Mass Destruction". He lied, we went to war. Its over now and you cant uninvent it. His past finally caught up with him, BoJo's will too I imagine. But honestly, I really dont care because there is nothing we can do about it, and we cant suddenly go back and remake policy