O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[slack_pie]

It would not be surprising to know how much of this has Russian involvement too. It serves their purpose to have another crisis involving the West, particularly the USA. The sooner the Americans get fed up of financing European issues the better the ride they get in Ukraine.

Could be Russia, could be Israel/the US. I seriously doubt Hamas was able to take the joint forces of Mossad and the CIA by surprise with the attacks that kicked this whole thing off. Now Israel has an excuse to wipe Gaza off the map and eliminate Hamas.

[keldsyke]

Not going to get into deep thoughts about Israel and Palestine, as that's always a black hole.

But supporting terrorism in the UK is an offence and I would not be surprised to see some of those on video going to jail for considerable stretches. And I'd be just fine with that. Cheering on the murder of innocent civilians cannot be right.

Spot on, unfortunately we have large sections of society who have no Morales and then when someone is challenged about something that is obviously wrong there are mass protests and unrest. For all the good that the internet has done, at times I wonder if it was best if it didn't exist.

[OchPie]

Many cultures and religions exist peacefully side by side. One seems a general exception almost wherever you go in the world.

Can't think of any that's a general exception almost wherever you go in the world.

[Newish Pie]

Newish Pie, it is ok to say that only Hamas supporters are celebrating the atrocities in Israel. BFP, a simple question, do you think it is ok for Hamas supporters to be celebrating their actions in Israel, on the streets of our capital. If not, then your earlier post is just purely political provocation.

I don't really understand what you're asking, why you're asking it, or why you're asking me.

[Newish Pie]

From what I can see on social media, people are so quick to take sides. Do you stand with Israel or Palestine? It's the same with every major issue these days - people take a side and then treat it like a sport. In reality, this conflict - like all the other serious issues the world is facing - is more nuanced and complicated than that. Taking a side is a strange thing to do when there are innocent children being needlessly slaughtered on both sides of the divide.

I can't see how this situation can be resolved. I presume Israel's plan is to destroy Hamas root and branch, which probably means turning Gaza into a wasteland. But in the process, they'll create a new generation of Palestinians (and Muslims in general) who want nothing but revenge and suffering for Israelis. And on and on it goes. That's if one of Palestine's many powerful allies doesn't weigh in and start WWIII.

There's something seriously wrong with us humans.

Good post - I agree with almost all of that. I guess the bit I'd stress is the "on social media" bit. It's really a small minority on social media, which in turn is a minority. A lot of performative noise, a lot of it done for attention.

Absolutely agree about the "stand with" nonsense that's sprung up. I think initially it was a quite positive way of showing solidarity with victims or people suffering where it was relatively uncontroversial, and now, as you say, it's become picking a side. One of the nice things about sport is that we can pick a side (or rather, a side picks us) and indulge our tribalism in a relatively harmless manner. But this isn't harmless.

Jampie's excellent post (12) sums up really nicely why this isn't the simple case of goodies and baddies.

I think a solution is possible. I think a lot of people would have said that Northern Ireland was similarly irresolvable, and although it's not been resolved, at least the killings have all but stopped. But this took a lot of brave people to take first steps, and then it took a new generation to emerge who'd only known peace. Think if there is a solution, it's going to take multiple generations.

[slack_pie]

Good post - I agree with almost all of that. I guess the bit I'd stress is the "on social media" bit. It's really a small minority on social media, which in turn is a minority. A lot of performative noise, a lot of it done for attention.

Absolutely agree about the "stand with" nonsense that's sprung up. I think initially it was a quite positive way of showing solidarity with victims or people suffering where it was relatively uncontroversial, and now, as you say, it's become picking a side. One of the nice things about sport is that we can pick a side (or rather, a side picks us) and indulge our tribalism in a relatively harmless manner. But this isn't harmless.

Jampie's excellent post (12) sums up really nicely why this isn't the simple case of goodies and baddies.

I think a solution is possible. I think a lot of people would have said that Northern Ireland was similarly irresolvable, and although it's not been resolved, at least the killings have all but stopped. But this took a lot of brave people to take first steps, and then it took a new generation to emerge who'd only known peace. Think if there is a solution, it's going to take multiple generations.

Yeah, I totally agree with what Jampie said too. Both sides have reasons to be angry and vengeful. Both sides have done awful things that they should be condemned for.

It blows my mind that some people only see the bad stuff that one side did and are blind to the atrocities that the other side is responsible for. I'd be angry if I were an Israeli. I'd be angry if I were a Palestinian. How do you resolve a situation like that?

[BigFatPie]

Newish Pie, it is ok to say that only Hamas supporters are celebrating the atrocities in Israel. BFP, a simple question, do you think it is ok for Hamas supporters to be celebrating their actions in Israel, on the streets of our capital. If not, then your earlier post is just purely political provocation.

I’ll do you the courtesy of answering your even though you rarely if ever answer any of mine. Of course it isn’t ok for anyone to celebrate atrocities. On the other hand, is it not ok for people to demonstrate support for innocent Palestinians by waving Palestinian flags because Braverman obviously doesn’t despite hectoring the police about ‘free speech’ just 6 months ago.

On the wider issue I don’t know why the US and UK governments and others give Israel carte blanche to bomb and starve out Palestinian children. Hamas are terrorists but they are not Palestine anymore than a despicable person like Netanyahu is Israel.

[slack_pie]

On the wider issue I don’t know why the US and UK governments and others give Israel carte blanche to bomb and starve out Palestinian children. Hamas are terrorists but they are not Palestine anymore than a despicable person like Netanyahu is Israel.

On this point, I saw someone post an old tweet by the President of the EC denouncing Russia as war criminals for deliberately cutting off the power and water supply to a Ukrainian town. Did she write a similar tweet in response to the Israeli government doing the exact same to Gaza? Nope.

Some people seem to think Palestinian children are less deserving of peace and life than Israeli ones. The Israeli defence minister literally called the people living in Gaza 'human animals'. This kind of rhetoric ends up with the atrocities we saw in the 20th Century.

[BigFatPie]

On this point, I saw someone post an old tweet by the President of the EC denouncing Russia as war criminals for deliberately cutting off the power and water supply to a Ukrainian town. Did she write a similar tweet in response to the Israeli government doing the exact same to Gaza? Nope.

Yes I’ve seen that, and I don’t understand her thought process either. Emily Thornberry was similarly confused when she was asked about the issue.

[Magpies1959]

BFP, at such a sensitive time, I do not think it is ok for Palestinian's, (how do you know they are innocent) to wave flags, (prevocatively) on the streets of our capital or anywhere else in this country. There is a fine line to draw on free speech, but whatever the Tories said about it, you would disagree. Just to clarify, I am not Tory supporter.