Incident involving Stags players

[JoePass]

This is a good comment. It's about time the causes of crime are looked at more closely and the deprivation in certain areas of society driving it. We have wall to wall bombardment thesedays of what you own is king, how many cars you have, how many holidays you go on, how nice if your house is etc. Then when people from poor areas commit crime as a way to obtain these things society holds so dear, we castigate them for it. Maybe we could work more on equal opportunities especially for those from ethnic backgrounds when they're young so they can see a way out of their environment. Maybe we could work more on the family unit so kids don't feel gangs are their only family and who care about them. Of course none of this will ever happen in a big enough way to affect change unless the ruling classes can make money from it which is what is wrong with the whole system.

Thanks for that Mr Corbyn.

[Elite_Pie]

Thanks for that Mr Corbyn.

If you want to apportion blame for where the vile greed culture started, it's a simple two word answer.

Margaret Thatcher.

[crazyfists]

Thanks for that Mr Corbyn.

It's pathetic comments like that and viewpoints like yours vwhich make the world as it is. Instead of just sitting back and thinking not my problem whilst coming out with incredible comedy as you often do soccerman, do you think you could actually try do something for your fellow man for no personal gain? Maybe even dare try understand things outside your scope of interest or experience?

And Elite is right about MT.

You probably think it's funny kids are all stabbing each other, after all most of them are black and it's not something you have to deal with so why care?

It's not my usual style to hold back from insults but I know you on the right love to say we on the left get abusive (it's down to I believe a mix of passion and frustration at dealing with gammons) so ill refrain. Anyway I'd best go get a bath before serious pie arrives to tell me I smell..........as I say, pathetic.

[JoePass]

It's pathetic comments like that and viewpoints like yours vwhich make the world as it is. Instead of just sitting back and thinking not my problem whilst coming out with incredible comedy as you often do soccerman, do you think you could actually try do something for your fellow man for no personal gain? Maybe even dare try understand things outside your scope of interest or experience?

And Elite is right about MT.

You probably think it's funny kids are all stabbing each other, after all most of them are black and it's not something you have to deal with so why care?

It's not my usual style to hold back from insults but I know you on the right love to say we on the left get abusive (it's down to I believe a mix of passion and frustration at dealing with gammons) so ill refrain. Anyway I'd best go get a bath before serious pie arrives to tell me I smell..........as I say, pathetic.

We all have our opinions, I am sick to death of the always blame someone else syndrome. For gods sake let these scum take responsibility for their own lives. Lets not blame the parents, the left wing teachers ramming anti establishment messages down kids throats and the pathetic soft justice system we have, who protect the instigators and sod the victims. We have tried all the weak pathetic soft justice angle, the useless social workers, the holiday camp drug filled prisons. Its time to crack down hard on these feral inbreds and bring some real justice. Your soft approach just does not work. Look at the ex mayor of New York who undertook zero tolerance, it worked. Its time for action, not whimpy ideas.

[Elite_Pie]

We all have our opinions, I am sick to death of the always blame someone else syndrome.

Rather ironic from the person who blames Corbyn for everything!

Regarding the rest of your tantrum, YOUR party, the party of law and order (snigger) have been in power since 2010. If as you say "it's time to crack down", why haven't the Tories sorted it when they've governed us for nearly a decade?

[crazyfists]

We all have our opinions, I am sick to death of the always blame someone else syndrome. For gods sake let these scum take responsibility for their own lives. Lets not blame the parents, the left wing teachers ramming anti establishment messages down kids throats and the pathetic soft justice system we have, who protect the instigators and sod the victims. We have tried all the weak pathetic soft justice angle, the useless social workers, the holiday camp drug filled prisons. Its time to crack down hard on these feral inbreds and bring some real justice. Your soft approach just does not work. Look at the ex mayor of New York who undertook zero tolerance, it worked. Its time for action, not whimpy ideas.

Well it was nice if you to actually write more than one sentence, I respect that you've done that. I don't agree with what you say due to the fact I believe the root causes of the problems won't be solved by putting extra police on the street and a zero tolerance approach. If incarceration or the threat of it had any effect at all then no one would commit crime but it doesn't. Another example is the death penalty, it doesn't stop anyone committing murder and never will.

I didn't say blame everyone else, yes people need to take personal responsibility but it's easy for people not born into those environments to say what people should and shouldn't do. The world and this country has changed for the worse and I for one would like to try and make it better, not just throw everyone in prison. Also people being in prison even for minor offences radically alters your ability to work when you get out. Why lock someone up for something minor to show how tough you are on crime when it means they have a high chance of reoffending when they get out due to lack of opportunity or trust given to them. I'd rather instead of try and get to them before they commit the crime so they can make society better as a whole in the future.

You will always get people who will commit crime to get larger amounts of money more quickly than they would working, it's happened since time began but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Some of the biggest crooks in our society are business, world and political leaders but we leave them alone to pick on the poor, nice system we have developed ain't it.

[slack_pie]

Well it was nice if you to actually write more than one sentence, I respect that you've done that. I don't agree with what you say due to the fact I believe the root causes of the problems won't be solved by putting extra police on the street and a zero tolerance approach. If incarceration or the threat of it had any effect at all then no one would commit crime but it doesn't. Another example is the death penalty, it doesn't stop anyone committing murder and never will.

I didn't say blame everyone else, yes people need to take personal responsibility but it's easy for people not born into those environments to say what people should and shouldn't do. The world and this country has changed for the worse and I for one would like to try and make it better, not just throw everyone in prison. Also people being in prison even for minor offences radically alters your ability to work when you get out. Why lock someone up for something minor to show how tough you are on crime when it means they have a high chance of reoffending when they get out due to lack of opportunity or trust given to them. I'd rather instead of try and get to them before they commit the crime so they can make society better as a whole in the future.

You will always get people who will commit crime to get larger amounts of money more quickly than they would working, it's happened since time began but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Some of the biggest crooks in our society are business, world and political leaders but we leave them alone to pick on the poor, nice system we have developed ain't it.

Just out of interest, what do you think the root causes of the problem are? I agree that the government could do more to increase social mobility - scrapping or reducing tuition fees, for example - but ultimately people have to take responsibility for their actions. Being poor is not an excuse for violent, antisocial, or abusive behaviour. One hundred years ago practically everyone was poor by today's standards. Most poor people today have smartphones, TVs, branded clothing, etc. - even those who don't work. So why is the situation getting worse?

It seems to me that no matter what you do, there will always be people with more and people with less. You can't really iron that stuff out through policy, and nor should you want to. Most of the time (but not always), what people have is a reflection of what they have done in their lives, or what their parents did. The reason 'posh' areas are nicer than rough areas isn't the fact that the houses are bigger and more expensive; it's the fact that people are generally more responsible, trustworthy, and grown-up in their behaviour. They are nicer because you don't have to worry about getting mugged or beaten up for no reason by a group of feral kids. It is the behaviour and attitudes that need to change for all this mindless violence to stop.

[queenslandpie]

Just out of interest, what do you think the root causes of the problem are? I agree that the government could do more to increase social mobility - scrapping or reducing tuition fees, for example - but ultimately people have to take responsibility for their actions. Being poor is not an excuse for violent, antisocial, or abusive behaviour. One hundred years ago practically everyone was poor by today's standards. Most poor people today have smartphones, TVs, branded clothing, etc. - even those who don't work. So why is the situation getting worse?

It seems to me that no matter what you do, there will always be people with more and people with less. You can't really iron that stuff out through policy, and nor should you want to. Most of the time (but not always), what people have is a reflection of what they have done in their lives, or what their parents did. The reason 'posh' areas are nicer than rough areas isn't the fact that the houses are bigger and more expensive; it's the fact that people are generally more responsible, trustworthy, and grown-up in their behaviour. They are nicer because you don't have to worry about getting mugged or beaten up for no reason by a group of feral kids. It is the behaviour and attitudes that need to change for all this mindless violence to stop.

Interesting thread this. I know some people who have plenty of money , live in a nice area, who still love a few beers and a fight. Personally not for me, I am probably the least violent person you will ever meet,. Maybe thats an Aussie thing but I doubt it. I think that for the most part, but not always, you are a product of your environment. I certainly believe that sending people to jail does not improve them for the most part, but I also believe that being soft on crime will only make the propensity to commit it worse. The reasons why people go to prison now compared to several decades ago will be quite different. Look at the amount of drug offences. The only way you can stop the supply of drugs is at source in my opinion, as there will always be people willing to take a chance at the other end, and often the sources of drugs have corrupted the local political and general scene to such a degree that is very very hard to influence. Ultimately if you send someone to prison, release them and place them back in the same or a worse situation than there were in when they went to prison you are going to have a very very high chance of repeating the cycle. Truly reforming someone by giving them opportunities beyond what they are used to and re-educating them is extremely time consuming and expensive. I don't know what the solution is but currently there isn't one.

[slack_pie]

Interesting thread this. I know some people who have plenty of money , live in a nice area, who still love a few beers and a fight. Personally not for me, I am probably the least violent person you will ever meet,. Maybe thats an Aussie thing but I doubt it. I think that for the most part, but not always, you are a product of your environment. I certainly believe that sending people to jail does not improve them for the most part, but I also believe that being soft on crime will only make the propensity to commit it worse. The reasons why people go to prison now compared to several decades ago will be quite different. Look at the amount of drug offences. The only way you can stop the supply of drugs is at source in my opinion, as there will always be people willing to take a chance at the other end, and often the sources of drugs have corrupted the local political and general scene to such a degree that is very very hard to influence. Ultimately if you send someone to prison, release them and place them back in the same or a worse situation than there were in when they went to prison you are going to have a very very high chance of repeating the cycle. Truly reforming someone by giving them opportunities beyond what they are used to and re-educating them is extremely time consuming and expensive. I don't know what the solution is but currently there isn't one.

I agree that we are mostly products of our environments, and parenting plays a huge role. When people grow up surrounded by violence and irresponsible behaviour, it's very hard to transcend that and do better. Again though, I have no idea what the solution is to that. You can't stop people having kids, and you can't police people's every decision or action.

[crazyfists]

Just out of interest, what do you think the root causes of the problem are? I agree that the government could do more to increase social mobility - scrapping or reducing tuition fees, for example - but ultimately people have to take responsibility for their actions. Being poor is not an excuse for violent, antisocial, or abusive behaviour. One hundred years ago practically everyone was poor by today's standards. Most poor people today have smartphones, TVs, branded clothing, etc. - even those who don't work. So why is the situation getting worse?

It seems to me that no matter what you do, there will always be people with more and people with less. You can't really iron that stuff out through policy, and nor should you want to. Most of the time (but not always), what people have is a reflection of what they have done in their lives, or what their parents did. The reason 'posh' areas are nicer than rough areas isn't the fact that the houses are bigger and more expensive; it's the fact that people are generally more responsible, trustworthy, and grown-up in their behaviour. They are nicer because you don't have to worry about getting mugged or beaten up for no reason by a group of feral kids. It is the behaviour and attitudes that need to change for all this mindless violence to stop.

I'll try answer your post the best I can slack. To start with I think the route cause isn't one thing but if I had to have one thing above others I'd say it's inclusion and making children from certain backgrounds feel wanted. For example a kid has a crack head for a mother, dad hasn't seen him for years, no one cares until one of the older kids on his estate throw him twenty quid to get some food, then next ask them to look after a box and give them a hundred quid for doing it then bring them into a unit of people and make them feel wanted for the first time in their life, for that kid it's probably already too late and he could be the next stabbing victim you see on the news. I mean alot of kids now days are getting fed through the schools not even at home and then we wonder why when someone flashes them some cash or love they don't say, 'no sorry I'm going to wait another six years till I finish education then get a job at eight pounds an hour' it's not going to happen.

I don't think being poor is an excuse for criminality and I don't actually agree with that blanket statement anyway, as I said the biggest criminals are often those in power and rich. That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying people from those areas and ethnic backgrounds are far more likely to see crime as a way out of their basically crap life. I do understand why people of an older generation get angry at this because they never had anything either and they worked hard. I'm not making excuses for people I'm trying to see why it happens so the youths go to work today instead of turn to a quick buck. I would say though in response to the generational issue though that work ethic, a strong family background including role models is something some younger people in those areas might not have today. Also and this for me is a massive part of it, in the old days they weren't bombarded wall to wall with images, adverts, TV and society all geared up to what you own. They didn't have crime glamourised in songs, movies and videos. Also the world now is far more me, me, me and let's take a selfie so people just look after themselves, why work hard when you can make five times as much in a life of crime. Also if modern life is so good now then why the ever increasing need for food banks, I mean we've got one of the best economies in the world yet have food banks for people who work full time????!!!!!!! It's wrong you know. Yes some people will always be richer than others, that's capitalism but everyone should have enough to live by and if they don't then we're doing something wrong.

I also think that people are wiser these days through the Internet and TV to just how crooked some of the people in power are. Our society isn't geared up to say those who work the hardest do the best and get the most, that's complete nonsense. If you can see an established elite ruling by nothing more than privilege and their family background telling you how you should behave then you're going to think hypocrites and liars. You could hold Trump and Bojo up to this example if you really wanted to, president and prime minister, how? Because of their strong moral compasses?

You have to get to these kids earlier as in when they're four or five years old and show them a better way through things like community programs or working through the school. Sure it's not going to work with everyone but we have to try something, even one child not killed who could become a decent member of society is better than what we're doing. It's easy to say they're problem, they're responsibility but I just don't think like that, I think we all have a responsibility to care for each other deep down.

Anyway that was really hard to write on a mobile so it may be my last contribution ha ha.