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[swaledale]

The closest McClaren got us to the PL was with Cloughs cheaply assembled squad under GSE.

The following season had it not been for the injuries that decimated the spine of the squad around February, March, April we might have gone up but that was still under GSE , although Mel had at that point got more influence.

It was only truly when Mel took over things went south and we spent millions turning a very good squad into a les good squad. At the time though it did seem like investing would get us over the line but Mels trigger happy approach with managers didn't help one bit.

Except McClaren brought in Dawkins, Wisdom, Thorne, Bamford, Keane, Naylor and Jacobs in the January, most were loans and I don't think more than £2 million was spent on transfer fees, so your right on not costing millions but it wasn't Clough's cheap squad.

[ramAnag]

The words "if he fails to get us out of this pretty average decision" is absolutely your subjective opinion!

1. It assumes Derby as a "big Club" have some divine right to be promoted, a cursory look at the experiences of similar "big Clubs" such as Forest, Sunderland Sheffield Wednesday and Ipswich to name but 4 would perhaps indicate thats not the foregone conclusion you seem to think it is!

2. You might just want to consider how many millions it took McClaren and Lampard to get Derby close to the "promised land" and how that unsustainable expenditure led to Derby going into administration.

We are now in a different era, where the owner is working to a business plan that aims for sustainability and isn't going to be throwing millions at getting promotion, what that means is clear, the club has to be careful in its expenditure, whether that be buying players or paying compensation for managers it won't be on the basis of knee jerk reactions of unreasonable grumbles from fans.

I didn't query the reason why Warne was appointed, it was your use of the word "specialist" that I queried, which I took to be a bit of a dig as to his track record. You do it again when you say he got promotion with Rotherham unsustainably - true up to a point, though given that clubs current league position one might deduce its a lack of resources rather than lack of ability as a manager that has influenced that turn of events. Of course the proof will be what happens If/when Derby are promoted and if Warne's in charge how he fares, but its a little premature to be worrying about that at the moment.

To be clear you said if Warne doesn't secure promotion this season, then his position should be reviewed. My point quite clearly was if we fail to get promotion, then unless we are miles off the pace, which I don't think we will be, then I see no reason why Clowes would consider changing the manager and given the various factors that can impact on whether a club gains promotion or not, it would in no way signal that Warne is not all he is "cracked up to be". I made no mention of Warne failing to get Derby promoted within the length of his contract.

Now if he fails within the 4 year contract he has been given or during that time the team is clearly not even in with a chance of promotion during a season, then that would be a different set of circumstances in which Warne's position could well be under review. However, we aren't in that position yet so its a moot point.

Tired of the argument, Swale...and so, from the sound of it, are most others.
We’re both right in our own way. The word ‘specialist’ wasn’t meant to be derogatory. He isn’t, as you’ve suggested, particularly ‘experienced’ having, I think, only managed one club prior to us but he has been successful in getting unfashionable Rotherham to the second tier. He’s never kept them there but that’s an issue for the future.
You’d stick with him if he’s unsuccessful this season...I’d have to consider the circumstances of any such failure very carefully before allowing him to spend any more money if I was Mr. Clowes.
I don’t believe Derby should take four years to return to the Championship from where we were a year ago or where we are now. You clearly disagree and that’s fair enough, just don’t make me out to be one of the minority calling for us to spend Clowes’ ‘millions’...that’s not what I’ve ever advocated.

[swaledale]

Tired of the argument, Swale...and so, from the sound of it, are most others.
We’re both right in our own way. The word ‘specialist’ wasn’t meant to be derogatory. He isn’t, as you’ve suggested, particularly ‘experienced’ having, I think, only managed one club prior to us but he has been successful in getting unfashionable Rotherham to the second tier. He’s never kept them there but that’s an issue for the future.
You’d stick with him if he’s unsuccessful this season...I’d have to consider the circumstances of any such failure very carefully before allowing him to spend any more money if I was Mr. Clowes.
I don’t believe Derby should take four years to return to the Championship from where we were a year ago or where we are now. You clearly disagree and that’s fair enough, just don’t make me out to be one of the minority calling for us to spend Clowes’ ‘millions’...that’s not what I’ve ever advocated.

Well then no wonder this Forum has died on its arse if debating various points bores people.

Unfortunately you keep denying what you have clearly stated in other posts and the fact that you "don't believe" it should take 4 years for derby to get promoted demonstrates a naivety and a lack of realism as to Derby's situation.

I would agree with that sentiment, IF Derby had just been relegated and hadn't not much more than 18 months ago gone into administration and been very close to liquidation. In normal circumstances yes Derby like say Norwich did, be able to regroup and make a speedy return.

However, that was not the situation, the club was on its knees, forced to sell players both in the first team and the academy to survive.

It had to rebuild from scratch only last season and yes, having done that it did much better than I or any realistic fan could have expected. On the back of that you and others it seems expected that one summers transfer window would automatically result in the team barnstorming the league and get promoted.

Indeed, before a ball had been picked you were bemoaning the lack of quality in the players and saying that the club must be able to afford to pay reasonable transfer fees. Come October, you were belly aching about Warne and agitating for him to be sacked.

So if calling for substantial transfer fees to be paid out and the manager to be replaced costing x £million isn't like a number of other fans calling for Clowes to plough more millions into the club then I'm convinced your perhaps being a little deluded over what you are calling for.

You even stated that the attendances should see some reward and when I suggested that the £55 million Clowes had put into the club was perhaps the reward, you were still of the view that it wasn't unreasonable to expect a transfer fee to be paid for a player.

Sorry are you really saying that a manager who has been in a managers position for 7 years isn't experienced, just because those 7 years have only been spent at 2 clubs? FFS you state your not being derogatory about Warne, then keep having little digs based on nothing but your prejudice against him! Unbelievable!!

One last point then, what do you count as success this season? Is it promotion? If we say finish in the top 6 or even 3rd, but lose the play off final are you saying Warne should be replaced?

Boy am I glad your not advising Mr Clowes!! I can just see him saying, yeah I see what you mean, I should dump this manager who has managed two top 7 finishes and this season been within a reach of promotion, chuck a million compo at him and then recruit another guy, who will want to change the team costing more money and start all over again with absolutely no guarantee that the end result will be better!!

Anyway, you and the rest of the fans who think this way will be disappointed, Clowes will only change the manager if he deviates significantly from his reasonable expectations. That could be if we don't finish in the top 6 and there are no extenuating circumstance such as a run of injuries to key players etc.

I do truly shake my head when fans like yourself, don't even stop and think about what it takes to finance a football club and yes Clowes is wealthy, but FFS, he didn't have to use the money to save Derby and nowhere at any time has he given a time frame for Derby to get promoted. Thank goodness that this time around we have an owner who will not be swayed by fans unrealistic demands, but will stick to a carefully thought out strategy and financial plan with realistic ambitions.

I don't need to make you out to be one of the minority (is it a minority? Its difficult to tell, given the ones who are realists tend not to comment) who call for millions to be spent, you've done that clearly in your previous posts and your still doing it in respect of saying Warne should be sacked if he doesn't get promotion this season, that's a million you'd happily spend right there.

[SithHappens]

My own view is I'd start to worry if we started to spend millions on players. Some of Mels signings had me shaking my head, Anya, Blackman, Malone and Waghorn (both ok signings but 8 million for the 2 was madness) to name a few.

We are still under restrictions. I know we can sign players but we are still having to agree to stick to the business plan the EFL agreed to. That plan won't include spending much ,or anything, in the way of transfer fees probably why CBT has signed on loan initially.

I'd expect us to be more active in the summer, especially with transfers that involve a fee, but the size of the fees will depend on the league we are in. If league one I'd expect our max fees to be around what we are paying for CBT but even then not many of them.

If we go up then I reckon a marque signing of top end 6 figures, low end 7 figures but then a few more similar to CBT

Unless we get investment of course.

I really want PW to work, and the signs are he could achieve his objective this season. While we shouldn't keep a manager for the sake of consistency there is no doubt that changing a manager (Steve probably the exception) does see you have a reset with them wanting to build their own team etc, that comes at a cost.

I think right now PW would have to be having a real mare for clowes to even consider changing him.

[ramAnag]

Well then no wonder this Forum has died on its arse if debating various points bores people.

Unfortunately you keep denying what you have clearly stated in other posts and the fact that you "don't believe" it should take 4 years for derby to get promoted demonstrates a naivety and a lack of realism as to Derby's situation.

I would agree with that sentiment, IF Derby had just been relegated and hadn't not much more than 18 months ago gone into administration and been very close to liquidation. In normal circumstances yes Derby like say Norwich did, be able to regroup and make a speedy return.

However, that was not the situation, the club was on its knees, forced to sell players both in the first team and the academy to survive.

It had to rebuild from scratch only last season and yes, having done that it did much better than I or any realistic fan could have expected. On the back of that you and others it seems expected that one summers transfer window would automatically result in the team barnstorming the league and get promoted.

Indeed, before a ball had been picked you were bemoaning the lack of quality in the players and saying that the club must be able to afford to pay reasonable transfer fees. Come October, you were belly aching about Warne and agitating for him to be sacked.

So if calling for substantial transfer fees to be paid out and the manager to be replaced costing x £million isn't like a number of other fans calling for Clowes to plough more millions into the club then I'm convinced your perhaps being a little deluded over what you are calling for.

You even stated that the attendances should see some reward and when I suggested that the £55 million Clowes had put into the club was perhaps the reward, you were still of the view that it wasn't unreasonable to expect a transfer fee to be paid for a player.

Sorry are you really saying that a manager who has been in a managers position for 7 years isn't experienced, just because those 7 years have only been spent at 2 clubs? FFS you state your not being derogatory about Warne, then keep having little digs based on nothing but your prejudice against him! Unbelievable!!

One last point then, what do you count as success this season? Is it promotion? If we say finish in the top 6 or even 3rd, but lose the play off final are you saying Warne should be replaced?

Boy am I glad your not advising Mr Clowes!! I can just see him saying, yeah I see what you mean, I should dump this manager who has managed two top 7 finishes and this season been within a reach of promotion, chuck a million compo at him and then recruit another guy, who will want to change the team costing more money and start all over again with absolutely no guarantee that the end result will be better!!

Anyway, you and the rest of the fans who think this way will be disappointed, Clowes will only change the manager if he deviates significantly from his reasonable expectations. That could be if we don't finish in the top 6 and there are no extenuating circumstance such as a run of injuries to key players etc.

I do truly shake my head when fans like yourself, don't even stop and think about what it takes to finance a football club and yes Clowes is wealthy, but FFS, he didn't have to use the money to save Derby and nowhere at any time has he given a time frame for Derby to get promoted. Thank goodness that this time around we have an owner who will not be swayed by fans unrealistic demands, but will stick to a carefully thought out strategy and financial plan with realistic ambitions.

I don't need to make you out to be one of the minority (is it a minority? Its difficult to tell, given the ones who are realists tend not to comment) who call for millions to be spent, you've done that clearly in your previous posts and your still doing it in respect of saying Warne should be sacked if he doesn't get promotion this season, that's a million you'd happily spend right there.

And on and on you go in what has long since ceased to be a debate and regularly turns into the sort of tirade which pi**es most people off.

You’d have a better argument if you didn’t constantly try and distort what I’ve actually said. Just look at your latest diatribe with foolish accusation after accusation.

You may think it naive to suggest that it shouldn’t take four years to take us from 7th in L1 to the Championship. PW inherited a club in 7th and we finished the season in 7th. He - not me - described last season as a ‘failure’ and his stated aim for this season is promotion. To me it’s a realistic aim, not an entitlement. You obviously disagree. What else is there to say?

I recognise all the difficulties you’ve identified about Derby’s situation and yes we did have to ‘rebuild from scratch’ but - and I realise that this will infuriate you - that rebuilding ‘from scratch’ was - going over old ground - done by Rosenior not Warne. That doesn’t help I recognise, but it is a fact.

Your comment about my ‘belly aching’ is laughable. I went to the friendly against Stoke. I was impressed and spoke highly of the new signings. Unfortunately I then saw the debacle at home to Oxford and an only marginal improvement against Fleetwood and realised several of our signings appeared to have flattered to deceive, and I wasn’t ‘agitating’ for Warne to be sacked in October...I was querying the progress made and the quality of his work in the transfer market although funnily enough I do recall a certain Mr. Swale, at the same time, suggesting that Warne would have to go if we found ourselves in the bottom half of the table.

As regards Warne’s managerial record. You were talking about Warne’s ‘qualifications’ as an ‘experienced manager’ at the time he was hired by Derby. He’d been a manager at ONE club - a club where he spent many of his playing days - for five years when he joined us. Does that make him ‘experienced’? Not really imo...again we obviously differ.

My definition of ‘success’ this season...clearly it is to achieve our aim which is...promotion. We finished seventh last season. We’ve made ump**** signings since with probably more to come so promotion is the only way that this season can actually be described as ‘successful’.

Am I saying that Warne should be replaced if we don’t achieve our aim? Not necessarily...it will depend on the circumstances. If we, for example, play well for the remainder of the season, make it to the playoffs and then suffer a horrible injury crisis then obviously there are mitigating circumstances which have to be taken into consideration. If however we continue to misfire, scrape into the playoffs only to be outplayed by the likes of Peterborough - as we were a few weeks ago - or Bolton, then I think questions will need to be asked. (That means, btw, questions will need to be asked NOT Warne should immediately be sacked).

You shake your head as much as you like (indeed you do come across as one of life’s head shakers) but time and time again you try and make out that I’m somehow disrespectful and unappreciative of Mr. Clowes contribution to DCFC. That simply isn’t true and you’ll find no evidence anywhere to support that argument or to suggest (again) that I have at any time called for ‘millions to be spent’. It’s such deliberate misinterpretation that makes debating with you so frustrating. Stick to what I’ve said and we can debate...otherwise I’ve just wasted another twenty minutes of my life.

[Geoff Parkstone]

[macstheman]

Obviously this tennis match harks back to the days of no tie breaks when 5 set matches could last a year (I think this ones been going that long!). However, it ain't no Borg/McEnroe rather it's more Tom and Jerry so perhaps brains can replace egos boys!! 🤞🤞🤞🙏🙏🙏🙏

[ramAnag]

Okay...I apologise...for thinking this was a forum where people exchange views. It’s honestly not about having the ‘last word’ and God knows, if you look back I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve tried to bring this to a close. When one is, imo, being repeatedly misrepresented what am I supposed to do?

I can either stick to my guns and argue what I believe to be right or accept that Swale is quite correct...Warne is beyond reproach...his signings have been universally successful and he hasn’t wasted a penny of our ’transfer’ budget...we consistently play the type of football which is going to win us promotion...Rosenior’s contribution to the current team is irrelevant...and it doesn’t matter if we spend four years in L1 anyway.

You decide.

[swaledale]

Okay...I apologise...for thinking this was a forum where people exchange views. It’s honestly not about having the ‘last word’ and God knows, if you look back I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve tried to bring this to a close. When one is, imo, being repeatedly misrepresented what am I supposed to do?

I can either stick to my guns and argue what I believe to be right or accept that Swale is quite correct...Warne is beyond reproach...his signings have been universally successful and he hasn’t wasted a penny of our ’transfer’ budget...we consistently play the type of football which is going to win us promotion...Rosenior’s contribution to the current team is irrelevant...and it doesn’t matter if we spend four years in L1 anyway.

You decide.

When a poster as you have consistently done spouts entitled crap and then when challenged claims you meant the opposite of what you actually posted, then yes I'm going to correct this!! You call that misrepresentation when actually its very clear what you have posted. If you are incapable of saying what you mean in a post that's hardly down to me is it?

Just for the record, given you accuse me of misrepresentation, but are very good at it yourself.

1. I have never said Warne was beyond reproach -merely that I saw no reason for him to be replaced.

2. I have never claimed Warne's signings have been universally successful, just pointed out that transfers are somewhat of a gamble and its unrealistic to expect every player to succeed. Clubs have spent millions on players (Sancho Man U for example) that for whatever reason have not performed as expected.

3. We are 3 pts off top with the best goal difference in the league so the facts would suggest Drby have played the type of football that could win promotion - it might not be to your liking, but hey whats your priority, entertainment or success on the pitch?

4. Seeing as Warne hasn't spent a penny on transfers (loan fees excepted) how has he wasted a penny of the transfer budget? A case could be made he has players who are a waste of their salary, but then name a club where that isn't the case.

5. Rosenior isn't our manager, Clowes made a decision, you didn't like it and clearly still don't but it is irrelevant who recruited the players, what's relevant is how the team performs under Warne.

6. However you bizarrely describe experience, its a fact that Warne has far more experience of management and of achieving promotion from League 1 than Rosenior.

7.I have never said "it doesn't matter" if we spend 4 years in League 1, I merely pointed out that Clowes and the Derby board may differ from your view that Warne " will have failed" if we don't get promotion this year. I also pointed out how long it had taken Ipswich, Notts Forest and Sunderland all comparable clubs who hadn't suffered administration to get out of League 1 and that you might want to temper your expectations somewhat.

In short the extensive argument that we have had over several threads basically consists of me trying to point out that your view seems like that of the deluded entitled fan who basically expects Clowes (you know that "rookie" owner as you call him) to pay what it takes to get quick success. If the team is slumping, sack the manager, if our players aren't performing, pay transfer fees and wages to get new ones in, surely thats the least Derby could do to "reward" the thousands who turn up every week?

I have to admit I'm bored now, seeing as its obvious you don't read what I post properly or are so deluded that your incapable of understanding the points made. So yes let the rest decide. QED

[SithHappens]

Reading suspended 3 points punishment for the vale game