Careless Tories!

[Andy_Faber]

HoL and Monarchy have no place in a meritocracy.

Clearly they do though and they’ll outlive everyone here and in the case of the monarchy, our living descendants too, it’s less worthy of discussion than Brexit to be honest. And no, I don’t agree with how the HoL is populated

[swaledale]

Clearly they do though and they’ll outlive everyone here and in the case of the monarchy, our living descendants too, it’s less worthy of discussion than Brexit to be honest. And no, I don’t agree with how the HoL is populated

Only if you consider the UK currently to be a meritocracy! Which given that a rich kid of low or average intelligence will generally end up richer (irrespective of any inheritance) than a poor kid with higher than average intelligence it clearly isn't.

Other countries with monarchy's have adapted by making them smaller and less formal whereas the UK has maintained this formality and class system which is designed by the upper classes to be a barrier to those not born into it. Again in a meritocracy such barriers would ahve been removed long ago.

So the statement that Monarchy has no place in a meritocracy is patently true.

As for whether they will outlive our descendants? Mm it rather depends upon how the current incumbent plays it, but given that the evidence suggests strongly that the tendency of people to become more conservative (small c) as they get older is reducing, then the days of the monarchy as it currently exists may well be limited.

I find it odd that in a democracy, the Monarchy isn't worthy of discussion? Why is that? because you think they should exist? or because you think that any discussion doesn't change things? if the latter, I'm glad you weren't around when gaining the vote for women, making same *** relationships legal and the abolition of slavery where being pursued, as I think exactly the same attitude could have prevailed then.

[swaledale]

HoL and Monarchy have no place in a meritocracy.

Or even in a basic democracy, for that matter. the idea of having a class of people entitled to a position in society purely through birth and whatever rules have been made up is bizarre for a modern day country.

[MadAmster]

Or even in a basic democracy, for that matter. the idea of having a class of people entitled to a position in society purely through birth and whatever rules have been made up is bizarre for a modern day country.

Indeed, I ought to have posted "should have no place"

[Geoff Parkstone]

Agree that the house of lords, as currently set up, has no place in a meritocracy but a reconfigured monarchy can mutually coexist I think if the will is there to change a bit. By this I don't mean the king moving into a Council flat in Walsall, but rather the role of the monarchy needs redefining and moving more towards a marketing brand.

BUT, and its a big BUT, when one looks at the massive outpourings of public grief on the death of Elizabeth 2 and DumbDiana and te public joy at the coronation, one wonders if joe public would want that. The grievers were most definitely not just the privileged, but rather seemed to be across all strata of society. This makes me feel that the people are quite happy with the monarchy - and its just po faced liberal intellectuals that debate its abolition and want rid of the monarchy to suit their own narrow agenda. Those that these liberals purport to benefit from this change actually dont want it. Gawd bless her, lovely lady..... An odd conflict

Incidentally, those who support a meritocracy. What happens when a person who has worked had and meritted good wealth and fortune himself has a thick kid? Does the wealth generated by the meritter get confiscated as the offspring has no merit? How does that work and who defines the degree of merit.

Its easy to see a case for those with merit ascending within society but IM not sure how it would work when they are to go down a snake rather than up a ladder

[swaledale]

Agree that the house of lords, as currently set up, has no place in a meritocracy but a reconfigured monarchy can mutually coexist I think if the will is there to change a bit. By this I don't mean the king moving into a Council flat in Walsall, but rather the role of the monarchy needs redefining and moving more towards a marketing brand.

BUT, and its a big BUT, when one looks at the massive outpourings of public grief on the death of Elizabeth 2 and DumbDiana and te public joy at the coronation, one wonders if joe public would want that. The grievers were most definitely not just the privileged, but rather seemed to be across all strata of society. This makes me feel that the people are quite happy with the monarchy - and its just po faced liberal intellectuals that debate its abolition and want rid of the monarchy to suit their own narrow agenda. Those that these liberals purport to benefit from this change actually dont want it. Gawd bless her, lovely lady..... An odd conflict

Incidentally, those who support a meritocracy. What happens when a person who has worked had and meritted good wealth and fortune himself has a thick kid? Does the wealth generated by the meritter get confiscated as the offspring has no merit? How does that work and who defines the degree of merit.

Its easy to see a case for those with merit ascending within society but IM not sure how it would work when they are to go down a snake rather than up a ladder

I'd agree there is a narrow majority in favour of the monarchy, not sure you can judge popularity from what one sees on TV and the media, which are basically obsequious in their coverage. The reaction to the coronation was oddly muted. Certainly the late Queen was held in high regard, though more because she had been around a long time than for anything she actually said and did, IMO she held the country back in many ways the longer her reign went on, encouraging the tendency of the wider population to believe in the "Great" in Britain and hark back to the 50's when actually things were grim.

Diana fanatics, was a demonstration of a large part of the nation losing its collective mind and ironically nearly led to the monarchy's downfall, bugger Blair and his interfering!

The latest YouGov poll, showed a 58% support, but how many of those really give a stuff is questionable, I guess many really don't actually have a strong view.

The meritocracy issue is really quite simple, one as long as everybody has the opportunity, then it matters not what a wealthy person can do. Its not the case that people with wealth should necessarily be penalised, but that a fair society should see all be supported. Yes that rather goes against a supposed natural selfishness by people who become rich or are rich and suggests that those who are in a position to do so should help those less fortunate and that the opportunity should be there for people who are poor.

In that we come to what must be the worst example in Zahawi, in disgrace because of his opaque tax affairs, trying to campaign on inheritance tax, because the thought of some of his fortune going in inheritance tax apparently stresses him out!!

I mean how much money do these ****ing people need? So a fair tax system and a fair inheritance tax system that sees a redistribution of wealth, but one that isn't punitive is the answer to that. Of course that depends upon politicians who don't appeal to some of the population's tendency for greed, so always a struggle.

But one society will not function and life will be unpleasant for all if too many are excluded and it doesn't make the best use of a nations resources. Everybody gets where they are from help via taxes, individuals and business, because roads and other infrastructure, health, education etc are provided by governments. Not to mention the fat government grants and contracts which the private sector cream profits off!!

[MadAmster]

Over here, the tax system is skewed against those who work for a living.

A person working a standard job will pay 36.93% tax on the first €73.031 and 49.50% on anything above that.

If I owned a business, I'd pay myself just enough to live on and pay the 39% tax on it. At the end of the tax year I'd denote thousands and thousands as profit and pay 19% on the first 200K and 25% on everything above that. That or give it as a dividend and pay 15%...

If I had a lucrative share portfolio, I pay 15% on any dividend I get, no matter how much I got.

Pensioners pay 19% on the first 37K, 36.93% on the next 36K and 49.5% on everything over 71K.

[ramAnag]

On the subject of the popularity of the monarchy...apparently, on its biggest day for 70 years, viewers peaked at 20.4 million people watching the Coronation. That presumably means that about 40 million didn’t bother. I’m not sure they’re as popular as some would like to think and I suspect they’re becoming less popular the more their lives resemble some soap opera

[Geoff Parkstone]

Was it 20.4m viewers or households? Not sure how they can assess viewers given all the street parties etc. Does that include overseas viewers?

As one of the non 20.4m who watched zero seconds of it, I feel almost unique amongst people I spoke to about it, so I'd say it would be more than 40% watching based on my tiny sample

[Andy_Faber]

Was it 20.4m viewers or households? Not sure how they can assess viewers given all the street parties etc. Does that include overseas viewers?

As one of the non 20.4m who watched zero seconds of it, I feel almost unique amongst people I spoke to about it, so I'd say it would be more than 40% watching based on my tiny sample

That sounds dangerously like an anecdote GP, I thought we weren’t allowed them - if we were I’d concur that my tiny sample was the same