Your verdict on VAR

[ramAnag]

There is something of a baby and bathwater characteristic to our version of VAR. If you want the positives of elimination of fundamental error, the you open yourself up to the nit picking of marginal offsides, questionable handball, minor fouls etc.

For years we have been moaning about blind refs missing things: now it's overly picky cameras spotting too many minor transgressions.

Which do we want? Refs missing things or tech finding things that no ref can see? The mindset of fans perhaps needs to change - never celebrate till VAR confirms. Thus we lose all spontaneity in the game.

Personally, I'd sooner accept the odd refereeing blunder if this incarnation of VAR is the future.

Good points, well made.

Taking arguably the two most high profile examples of refereeing incompetence in (not so) recent years - Maradona’s ‘hand of God’ goal and West Brom’s offside winner which deprived Leeds of the title - both these examples would have been classic cases where VAR would, had it been available, have led to correct decisions and justice.
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Equally...in much more recent times...the title race would have been at least three points closer because Lallana’s goal for Liverpool against Wolves would, without VAR, have been incorrectly disallowed and Leicester’s equaliser against Southampton would have incorrectly stood.
That may not make much difference this season but could be crucial given a closer title race.

With that in mind isn’t it the rules rather than VAR which needs clarification?

[MadAmster]

With that in mind isn’t it the rules rather than VAR which needs clarification?

The Law on handball certainly needs reviewing and changing.

I also think the FA/PL take on VAR usage also needs reviewing and changing.

In both of the above cases, by changing, I mean improving.

[Geoff Parkstone]

i think there used to be the odd refereeing mistake back in, say the 80s or 90s. Most of the microscopic decision reversals we see nowadays would never have been known about back then - by either the refs, the players or the fans. The TV replay my have suggested there were a few marginal ones, but that is all they were. The real howlers were fairly few and far between.
With today's tech, every tiny possible infraction is reviewed and rereviewed, sliced and diced to the enth degree.

For VAR to work and be as seamless as possible with the game, it has to be de-teched, made less microscopically accurate or in some way controlled in its application. The player who is shown to be offside by the width of a pubic hair, or situations where a ball hits a hand 30 seconds before a decisive goal is scored should not be what VAR is about.

Just because VAR can, it does not mean that VAR should.

[ramAnag]

i think there used to be the odd refereeing mistake back in, say the 80s or 90s. Most of the microscopic decision reversals we see nowadays would never have been known about back then - by either the refs, the players or the fans. The TV replay my have suggested there were a few marginal ones, but that is all they were. The real howlers were fairly few and far between.
With today's tech, every tiny possible infraction is reviewed and rereviewed, sliced and diced to the enth degree.

For VAR to work and be as seamless as possible with the game, it has to be de-teched, made less microscopically accurate or in some way controlled in its application. The player who is shown to be offside by the width of a pubic hair, or situations where a ball hits a hand 30 seconds before a decisive goal is scored should not be what VAR is about.

Just because VAR can, it does not mean that VAR should.

But isn’t it precisely that... ‘sliced and diced to the enth degree’ in brutal HD capability...that has given rise to the requirement for VAR to provide a palpably ‘correct’ decision, GP?

If, for instance, the West Ham goal had been allowed to stand - especially in a more crucial match setting - the argument would still be raging. It would just be a different set of supporters who were incensed.

[Geoff Parkstone]

But isn’t it precisely that... ‘sliced and diced to the enth degree’ in brutal HD capability...that has given rise to the requirement for VAR to provide a palpably ‘correct’ decision, GP?

If, for instance, the West Ham goal had been allowed to stand - especially in a more crucial match setting - the argument would still be raging. It would just be a different set of supporters who were incensed.

I dont know? How many of the spectators would have even suspected that there was an incidental handball if it were not due to the overbearing influence of TV ? I guess not the ref. for sure. I suspect there would not be a seething debate as noone would have noticed it?

[ramAnag]

I suspect there would not be a seething debate as noone would have noticed it?

...until they got home and saw it in glorious HD...or heard all about it on the car radio.

The genie is out of the bottle...the question is how to manage it in football as well as it appears to be in rugby and cricket.

[MadAmster]

..... and as I said earlier, the fact that the ball/arm contact only became a foul because 10 seconds later the ball found its way into the Sheff U net shows how utterly ludicrous the current handball Law is.

[swaledale]

It’s difficult and I completely accept Rob and Swales’ points about VAR spoiling the game because supporters now celebrate those decisions more than the spontaneity of the original ‘goal’ eg...Leicester v Southampton on Saturday.

On the other hand and returning to the disallowed West Ham goal...had the referee actually spotted the accidental but beneficial hand ball - and imo it is totally understandable that he didn’t - would it have been hailed as a brilliant ‘spot’ or a piece of harsh and unnecessary interference?

Ultimately, if we’re going to use technology in football as it is in other sports, then all that matters is that the right decision is reached.
In this case the goal was only scored because Rice’s arm inadvertently gave him an advantage over the defender. Blades’ fans were of course delighted...West Ham’s distraught, but wouldn’t that have been the case in reverse had VAR not been used and isn’t that the price of having each and every incident scrutinised and almost forensically examined by TV ‘experts’?

If the goal had ‘stood’ the same argument would be taking place, albeit in reverse. Can’t have it both ways.

Keep up RA!

We have already said that VAR was correct in this case, its the change of rule regarding handball thats at fault here! A ludicrous amendment, which defines inadvertent contact with a players arm or hand only as handball if a goal results from it - IMO and it seems most other sensible football fans this rule change was unnecessary and its application is spoiling the game and thats whats been aggravating supporters.

VAR only comes into it, in that in the majority of cases the only way this new rule can be applied is through VAR! But thats not what most thought VAR was being introduced for.

Indeed the spin was that it was to correct "clear and obvious" errors, not micro millimeter offside decisions (where the spirit of the rules of the game has hitherto been the attacking side gets the benefit of any doubt) or to enable the introduction of an revised handball rule.

So nobody is having it both ways, we are saying the new handball rule is stupid and needs to be removed. We are also saying that VAR needs to be used to rectify "clear and obvious" errors in other words it should enhance the fairness of the game not introduce a whole new set of parameters which is what is happening.

[ramAnag]

Keep up RA!

We have already said that VAR was correct in this case, its the change of rule regarding handball thats at fault here! A ludicrous amendment, which defines inadvertent contact with a players arm or hand only as handball if a goal results from it - IMO and it seems most other sensible football fans this rule change was unnecessary and its application is spoiling the game and thats whats been aggravating supporters.

VAR only comes into it, in that in the majority of cases the only way this new rule can be applied is through VAR! But thats not what most thought VAR was being introduced for.

Indeed the spin was that it was to correct "clear and obvious" errors, not micro millimeter offside decisions (where the spirit of the rules of the game has hitherto been the attacking side gets the benefit of any doubt) or to enable the introduction of an revised handball rule.

So nobody is having it both ways, we are saying the new handball rule is stupid and needs to be removed. We are also saying that VAR needs to be used to rectify "clear and obvious" errors in other words it should enhance the fairness of the game not introduce a whole new set of parameters which is what is happening.

Not really a question of ‘keeping up’ Swale.

I ‘get’ all the arguments about the need for clarification about the rules on handball and offside but they’re not likely to change mid season and all VAR has done is bring the need for such changes into sharper focus.

Times have changed. Virtually every arm chair fan now has the technology to check every decision and if they don’t there’s a panel of experts happy to do it for them from ten different angles.

Expectations have changed...people said they wanted more correct decisions and less errors and that’s exactly what they’ve got, except now, for every delighted Blades and Liverpool fan there’s a disgruntled supporter of West Ham and Wolves.

VAR/TMO has been around a long time. It’s over twelve years now since England arguably lost the 2007 RU World Cup Final because Mark Cueto’s ‘try’ in the corner was eventually, and dubiously imo, disallowed by the TMO. Players and fans just got on with it but in football that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

Why is that? What makes football, and English football in particular, so different?

[swaledale]

Not really a question of ‘keeping up’ Swale.

I ‘get’ all the arguments about the need for clarification about the rules on handball and offside but they’re not likely to change mid season and all VAR has done is bring the need for such changes into sharper focus.

Times have changed. Virtually every arm chair fan now has the technology to check every decision and if they don’t there’s a panel of experts happy to do it for them from ten different angles.

Expectations have changed...people said they wanted more correct decisions and less errors and that’s exactly what they’ve got, except now, for every delighted Blades and Liverpool fan there’s a disgruntled supporter of West Ham and Wolves.

VAR/TMO has been around a long time. It’s over twelve years now since England arguably lost the 2007 RU World Cup Final because Mark Cueto’s ‘try’ in the corner was eventually, and dubiously imo, disallowed by the TMO. Players and fans just got on with it but in football that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

Why is that? What makes football, and English football in particular, so different?

Nobody said they were going to be changed mid season if at all, but you were inferring quite clearly that you can't have it both ways with VAR, when the point being made was that firstly the rule change on handball was nonsensical which was a different argument to that about VAR.

VAR is being applied differently in England than elsewhere as has been discussed many times on here, with refs seemingly awaiting a decision from Stockley Park rather than going over to the pitchside monitor and seeing for themselves.

With respect other sports are different, Rugby, Cricket are games which stop and start, the whole point of football is its dynamic nature, the way VAR is being used is ruining this.

Sometimes your very obtuse in your reasoning and seem to miss the threads of the argument and I'm not the only one who has pointed this out.