OT Italian election

[drillerpie]

I forgot to address your argument about Five Star and the EU......straight from Wiki....About the politics of the European Union and the Euro, the Five Star movement has often been highly critical, but like on other issues, its position is ambiguous. On 12 June 2014, the M5S having been rejected by both the Greens/EFA,[119] and the ALDE[120] European Parliament groups, offered its activists a limited-choice online referendum to choose a group for the party, in which 78% of participating activists voted for the Eurosceptic Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy ......so they are viewed as Eurosceptic?

Again from Wiki.....In December 2017, the M5S electoral leader, Luigi Di Maio stated that he supported a referendum for Italy to leave the Eurozone and would vote to leave.[126] However, in January 2018 he rejected his previous position,[127] refusing the idea of a referendum on the Euro, which was previously strongly supported by the movement.[128] In February 2018, Di Maio also stated that "European Union is the Five Star Movement's home".[129].....LEAVE is mentioned a few times.

I also checked on their alliance with Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy.....it seems it is led by Sir Nigel Farage?....straight from Wiki again.....n 2017, it was one of the seven political groups of the parliament. This right wing group is opposed to European integration[6]. 24 out of its 47 MEPs were from the United Kingdom. In 2017, the group had two co-presidents: UKIP's Nigel Farage, and David Borrelli from the Five Star Movement[.......On 12 June 2014, the Five Star Movement (M5S) of Italy, having been rejected by the Greens/EFA[9] and Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe[10] groups, offered its activists a limited-choice online referendum to choose a European Parliament group for the party, in which 78% of participating activists voted for the EFD.[11][12]

On 16 June 2014, Dutch MEP Bas Belder of the Reformed Political Party (SGP) moved from the EFD to the ECR group.[13]

The EFD group was reformed on 18 June 2014 with MEPs from existing member parties: the UK Independence Party (United Kingdom) and the Order and Justice (Lithuania), in addition to new affiliates: the Five Star Movement, the Sweden Democrats (Sweden), the Party of Free Citizens (Czech Republic), the Latvian Farmers Union (Latvia) and a French independent MEP, formerly of the National Front.[14][15]

On 24 June 2014, the EFD group name was revised to Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy (EFDD), and David Borrelli of the Five Star Movement was chosen as the incoming group's new co-president.[16][17

So correct me if I am wrong, Driller.....but according to this 78% of Five Star voters....voted to join an EU Party led by Nigel Farage?

No, 78% of members, not voters. Plus you will find that when Beppe Grillo recommends the members vote in a certain way, as he did in this case, he usually wins 80/20.

[tarquinbeech]

Don't think you can read Putin anything into Putin's impending victory other than the fact that if you control the media and put your opponents in prison you win elections.

Paradise papers was a story broken by a left wing newspaper you profess to hate.

A lot of M5S policies are more left wing than the the centre left parties (free money for everyone for example)

.......why does it matter who broke the Panama story?.....the point about Putin was the continuing rise of a country on the Right, strangely enough who also support 5 Star, a Party with "Eff you" as the slogan....who want to bin the Euro, relocate 600,000 refugees and deport illegals and end the Libyan "taxi service".....good on them, though I notice that Grillo is now distancing himself from the new boy now he has retracted his December call for ItalExit.

I smell some Bullchit here.....they rise to power, name the son of a Mussolini~supporting Nazi as their leader who obviously has to resign as a Napoli waiter first, then offer free money to everyone (sounds like a Labour gambit) whilst offering the EU the olive branch of not upsetting the apple~cart unless they get some reforms......meanwhile they get your buddy Federico to write a Guardian piece on being "maligned by the press". The guy is not a 5 Star spokesman, but a Sorbonne and Harvard graduate who peddles his intellectual thoughts around the Middle~East and South America whilst collecting dosh from oil and gas companies whom he advises them on about how to protect their assets......his CV makes no mention of 5 Star affiliation so I may have found the wrong guy, in which case ....someone has hijacked my MAD account.

I have today read, pieces in the New Statesman, Economist, NBC, CNN, Washington Post, Politico and even the Shropshire something~or~other......and every one of them, to varying degrees, assert the belief that the Italian result spells problems for the EU.....not insurmountable problems I grant you, a bit of free dosh goes a long way as long as they do not rock the boat, or lifeboat, too much....in Mexico, we use an old~fashioned term....bribery, and it works ......as the Italians are well aware.

[tarquinbeech]

No, 78% of members, not voters. Plus you will find that when Beppe Grillo recommends the members vote in a certain way, as he did in this case, he usually wins 80/20.

Glad we agree, Grillo tells his "members" to vote to align with UKIP...78% agree...but now you appear to be saying that they are NOT really EuroSceptic according to some Sorbonne intellectual?

I am slightly confused.....even their new leader, obviously Grillo cannot take power because of his numerous convictions including manslaughter, was calling for a Leave vote 3 months ago and offering a referendum......yes, yes, I am aware that he is now attempting to climb up onto the fence as long as the Italians get some concessions from the EU Mafia...but they did not help Cameron when he tried it....will they back down this time?...mmmmm, very possibly....after all, they have only just finished fire~fighting against AFD, do they really want to risk another blaze?

The irony of watching this whole crumbling edifice, is that if they had just stuck to being a Common Market.....none of this would be happening....we would still have had political surprises, but nobody would have dreamt of leaving a common trading bloc.

[drillerpie]

Glad we agree, Grillo tells his "members" to vote to align with UKIP...78% agree...but now you appear to be saying that they are NOT really EuroSceptic according to some Sorbonne intellectual?

I am slightly confused.....even their new leader, obviously Grillo cannot take power because of his numerous convictions including manslaughter, was calling for a Leave vote 3 months ago and offering a referendum......yes, yes, I am aware that he is now attempting to climb up onto the fence as long as the Italians get some concessions from the EU Mafia...but they did not help Cameron when he tried it....will they back down this time?...mmmmm, very possibly....after all, they have only just finished fire~fighting against AFD, do they really want to risk another blaze?

The irony of watching this whole crumbling edifice, is that if they had just stuck to being a Common Market.....none of this would be happening....we would still have had political surprises, but nobody would have dreamt of leaving a common trading bloc.

No we don't agree. First of all you said 80% of M5S voters chose to join Farage's Eurosceptic group, that is not true, it was 80% of members of the movement, not 80% of people who vote for them.

I'm saying that whenever Grillo recommends an outcome of the vote most of the members follow his recommendation, usually by a margin of 80/20. A good example of this is that when Grillo subsequently recommended leaving Farage's group to join the liberal group (about a year ago I think) this was also approved by 80/20.

Feel free to ask for further clarification if this is not clear.

The Sorbonne intellectual is a M5S candidate, why would you know more than him about the direction his movement wants to take? Bizarre.

[JoePass]

No we don't agree. First of all you said 80% of M5S voters chose to join Farage's Eurosceptic group, that is not true, it was 80% of members of the movement, not 80% of people who vote for them.

I'm saying that whenever Grillo recommends an outcome of the vote most of the members follow his recommendation, usually by a margin of 80/20. A good example of this is that when Grillo subsequently recommended leaving Farage's group to join the liberal group (about a year ago I think) this was also approved by 80/20.

Feel free to ask for further clarification if this is not clear.

The Sorbonne intellectual is a M5S candidate, why would you know more than him about the direction his movement wants to take? Bizarre.

My vote goes to that George Forman Grill..o..its good for you.

[drillerpie]

.......why does it matter who broke the Panama story?.....the point about Putin was the continuing rise of a country on the Right, strangely enough who also support 5 Star, a Party with "Eff you" as the slogan....who want to bin the Euro, relocate 600,000 refugees and deport illegals and end the Libyan "taxi service".....good on them, though I notice that Grillo is now distancing himself from the new boy now he has retracted his December call for ItalExit.

I smell some Bullchit here.....they rise to power, name the son of a Mussolini~supporting Nazi as their leader who obviously has to resign as a Napoli waiter first, then offer free money to everyone (sounds like a Labour gambit) whilst offering the EU the olive branch of not upsetting the apple~cart unless they get some reforms......meanwhile they get your buddy Federico to write a Guardian piece on being "maligned by the press". The guy is not a 5 Star spokesman, but a Sorbonne and Harvard graduate who peddles his intellectual thoughts around the Middle~East and South America whilst collecting dosh from oil and gas companies whom he advises them on about how to protect their assets......his CV makes no mention of 5 Star affiliation so I may have found the wrong guy, in which case ....someone has hijacked my MAD account.

I have today read, pieces in the New Statesman, Economist, NBC, CNN, Washington Post, Politico and even the Shropshire something~or~other......and every one of them, to varying degrees, assert the belief that the Italian result spells problems for the EU.....not insurmountable problems I grant you, a bit of free dosh goes a long way as long as they do not rock the boat, or lifeboat, too much....in Mexico, we use an old~fashioned term....bribery, and it works ......as the Italians are well aware.

The Panama Papers story is I think one the most important issues facing us today, so I thought you might want to recognise that the paper you despise did good work exposing it.

Obviously Breitbart and so on could've investigated it but didn't, perhaps because the people who own them want to start a war between different classes of poor people to protect their substantial wealth? Anyway, I digress.

The Putin / M5S link is interesting. M5S started out with very strong liberal principles and was very critical of Putin in its early days, then Beppe Grillo went to meet Putin in Russia and when he came back he adopted a totally different tone towards Russia: much friendlier and much more hostile towards the EU. Draw your own conclusions.

[JoePass]

The Panama Papers story is I think one the most important issues facing us today, so I thought you might want to recognise that the paper you despise did good work exposing it.

Obviously Breitbart and so on could've investigated it but didn't, perhaps because the people who own them want to start a war between different classes of poor people to protect their substantial wealth? Anyway, I digress.

The Putin / M5S link is interesting. M5S started out with very strong liberal principles and was very critical of Putin in its early days, then Beppe Grillo went to meet Putin in Russia and when he came back he adopted a totally different tone towards Russia: much friendlier and much more hostile towards the EU. Draw your own conclusions.

I have drawn mine...bored xxxxless.

[BigFatPie]

I have drawn mine...bored xxxxless.

That’s a shame, I was looking forward to your contribution to the debate.

I’ll have to ask the cat instead.

[JoePass]

That’s a shame, I was looking forward to your contribution to the debate.

I’ll have to ask the cat instead.

Purrrrrr ..by the way your mates nickname was COB, you know, the Marxist who hates Britain.. always happy to help the debate of who loves Britain and the others.

[tarquinbeech]

No we don't agree. First of all you said 80% of M5S voters chose to join Farage's Eurosceptic group, that is not true, it was 80% of members of the movement, not 80% of people who vote for them.

I'm saying that whenever Grillo recommends an outcome of the vote most of the members follow his recommendation, usually by a margin of 80/20. A good example of this is that when Grillo subsequently recommended leaving Farage's group to join the liberal group (about a year ago I think) this was also approved by 80/20.

Feel free to ask for further clarification if this is not clear.

The Sorbonne intellectual is a M5S candidate, why would you know more than him about the direction his movement wants to take? Bizarre.

You appear to be getting a bit tetchy.....is that because every single media outlet out there, apart from the Guardian after commissioning a piece from from a media whore, have decided 5 Star spells trouble for the EU Mafia?

Further clarification not needed thanks....I have the incredible ability of reading the various press versions of the latest EU debacle.

I will enjoy watching the latest saga unfold....I have already formed my idea of the outcome.....so have you obviously.....we will see......until then, Pax Romanis Mr Driller

ps In rather a good mood, the new swimming pool is coming along nicely, Walmart have a special on pool umbrellas, the kind that you crank open and closed, plus I picked up 60 odd litres of Indio Ale on special offer as well, for the weekend, along with a 4 litre carafe of rather nice white wine that I am currently quaffing .......nothing can spoil my weekend in Tarkersville....I love everyone...in a non~gay kinda way obviously.