OT: Old Mrs. May's fudge shoppe

[Elite_Pie]

I also had the misfortune of attending Bulwell job centre a few years ago. It stank of weed and sweaty tracksuits.
Much like Morrisons up the road - where I've never seen so many wheelchairs and mobo scooters since watching that series about ex-pats in Spain.

Did you have the pleasure of attending any of those 'back to work' group sessions? That's what really opened my eyes. They were a load of bullsh!t, but when asked to "name three things you are good at", one chavvy bloke answered "sleeping, smoking and drinking" to loud laughter from his mates. It was obvious they had no intention to work, but the job centre staff seemed powerless to do anything about it, in fact they just seemed to accept it. I felt sympathy for those genuinely seeking employment, because they would have been bracketed with the shirkers by many as benefit scroungers.

[Bohinen]

Well that's a question of legality then, I hope you reported the cases you know about to the authorities too.

Well no. I didn't, because I didn't work with these people who were paid less, just the same as you didn't. Just the same as because I haven't been murdered and nor has anyone I know, it doesn't mean murders don't happen. Would it help if I used data from a posh website, to, you know, actually back up my opinion with facts, and not just my own personal experience?

In summary, for professionals, yes, foreign workers are paid the same or even more, but lower down the scale the reverse is true, rather as I suspected.

While revealing, these figures do not answer the question of whether foreign workers have depressed UK wages; although the average earnings of non-UK born workers in non-professional occupations is lower than for UK born workers.

https://fullfact.org/news/do-uk-immi...-born-workers/

Here is a more shocking example. I didn't report this myself, I read it in the Guardian.

Guardian undercover reporters explore retailer’s working practices – from losing wages for being a minute late to body searches and constant fear of being sacked

It may be 5.30am and pitch-black on the outskirts of Shirebrook, Derbyshire - but the roads are busy. A stream of cars, typically packed with eastern Europeans, wind their way along country lanes and deliver about 1,500 people to a massive facility surrounded by farmland ...

Step by step, minimum-wage workers are informed of what is expected of them for the headline rate of £6.70 an hour (in reality, many receive less) – including being told they will walk almost 20 miles each day inside the warehouse as they pick products off the shelves.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/09/sports-direct-warehouse-work-conditions

[drillerpie]

Well no. I didn't, because I didn't work with these people who were paid less, just the same as you didn't. Just the same as because I haven't been murdered and nor has anyone I know, it doesn't mean murders don't happen. Would it help if I used data from a posh website, to, you know, actually back up my opinion with facts, and not just my own personal experience?

In summary, for professionals, yes, foreign workers are paid the same or even more, but lower down the scale the reverse is true, rather as I suspected.

While revealing, these figures do not answer the question of whether foreign workers have depressed UK wages; although the average earnings of non-UK born workers in non-professional occupations is lower than for UK born workers.

https://fullfact.org/news/do-uk-immi...-born-workers/

Here is a more shocking example. I didn't report this myself, I read it in the Guardian.

Guardian undercover reporters explore retailer’s working practices – from losing wages for being a minute late to body searches and constant fear of being sacked

It may be 5.30am and pitch-black on the outskirts of Shirebrook, Derbyshire - but the roads are busy. A stream of cars, typically packed with eastern Europeans, wind their way along country lanes and deliver about 1,500 people to a massive facility surrounded by farmland ...

Step by step, minimum-wage workers are informed of what is expected of them for the headline rate of £6.70 an hour (in reality, many receive less) – including being told they will walk almost 20 miles each day inside the warehouse as they pick products off the shelves.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/09/sports-direct-warehouse-work-conditions

The first link only says that employees from Eastern Europe earn on average less than UK born employees. If they are almost all doing minimum wage jobs that is to be expected. Nowhere does it say they they work for illegally low wages, and in the part you quoted it even states that it isn't proof that they have depressed UK wages.

The second link about Sports Direct says 'many work for less than the minimum wage' but doesn't say how many or how that is possible exactly so it's difficult to comment on. I know that Sports Direct have had to revise their employment practices recently though as they were in contravention of the law.

By the way is the Guardian not Project Fear? Or only when it says something you don't like?

[Bohinen]

The second link about Sports Direct says 'many work for less than the minimum wage' but doesn't say how many or how that is possible exactly so it's difficult to comment on. I know that Sports Direct have had to revise their employment practices recently though as they were in contravention of the law.

I'm getting a little disturbed that you don't see low wages as a problem. I'm alright Jack?

Sports Direct and its staffing agencies paid workers £1m too little
Retailer, Best Connection and Transline named and shamed by government after having to repay £946,000 in total

Sports Direct and its employment agencies Best Connection and Transline have been named and shamed by the government for paying workers less than the legal minimum wage, underpaying them by nearly £1m.

The companies make up three of the top four underpayers in the latest list published by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS).

This list names 260 employers which failed to pay a record 16,000 workers a combined total of £1.7m.


https://www.theguardian.com/business...-1m-too-little

[drillerpie]

I'm getting a little disturbed that you don't see low wages as a problem. I'm alright Jack?

Sports Direct and its staffing agencies paid workers £1m too little
Retailer, Best Connection and Transline named and shamed by government after having to repay £946,000 in total

Sports Direct and its employment agencies Best Connection and Transline have been named and shamed by the government for paying workers less than the legal minimum wage, underpaying them by nearly £1m.

The companies make up three of the top four underpayers in the latest list published by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS).

This list names 260 employers which failed to pay a record 16,000 workers a combined total of £1.7m.


https://www.theguardian.com/business...-1m-too-little

A couple of hours ago I said unequal societies are undesirable.

I'm disturbed you don't seem to like hard working people from other countries being able to better themselves? I'm alright Jack?

The link you posted describes how firms like Sports Direct have had to back pay their staff what they were owed, so in the end they didn't work for less than minimum wage. As I said originally it's a question of enforcing the law. Kind of an own goal there Bohinen.

[Airborn Pie]

A couple of hours ago I said unequal societies are undesirable.

I'm disturbed you don't seem to like hard working people from other countries being able to better themselves? I'm alright Jack?

The link you posted describes how firms like Sports Direct have had to back pay their staff what they were owed, so in the end they didn't work for less than minimum wage. As I said originally it's a question of enforcing the law. Kind of an own goal there Bohinen.

You also wrote....

'This also applies to pretty much every other sector apart from low skilled manual workers who should under no conditions be exposed to any competition ever, in fact they should be protected'

If there were a glut of jobs and resources, it would be ok to allow an influx of unskilled labour but there isn't. A governments first duty is to it's own people and it's own societal requirements. Providing a glut of unskilled fruit pickers to maximise Farmer Brown's profits, only benefits one person, the farmer, it gives nothing to society as a whole.

[Airborn Pie]

The aforementioned 'fruit pickers'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...ntral-44884882

'Mr Wishart said that traditionally seasonal workers came for eastern Europe to work as fruit pickers, however uncertainty over Brexit may be putting them off.'


This is nonsense, it's been stated in other articles that they're finding better paid work elsewhere in Europe due to the value of the £.

Let's not kid ourselves that they were doing us a favour.

Another line says

'"We need to see action now to prevent this from happening."

Conscripted fruit pickers? The only way this will be solved is to seriously increase the pay on offer and simplify the benefits system for those that would 'sign off' and on again to undertake the seasonal work. Currently, it's so lengthy and problematic, it does not encourage locals to take short term work.

[Mapperleypie]

You also wrote....

'This also applies to pretty much every other sector apart from low skilled manual workers who should under no conditions be exposed to any competition ever, in fact they should be protected'

If there were a glut of jobs and resources, it would be ok to allow an influx of unskilled labour but there isn't. A governments first duty is to it's own people and it's own societal requirements. Providing a glut of unskilled fruit pickers to maximise Farmer Brown's profits, only benefits one person, the farmer, it gives nothing to society as a whole.

I take issue with farmers making decent profits or giving nothing to society, if fruit/veg does not get picked it affects UK food supply significantly. In my experience, even allowing for cheap eastern-european labour, farmers really don't make super-profits (they own some pretty expensive land at times but that's a different issue). The problem stems from the shift in the UK market from there being a local greengrocer that was willing to pay a fair price to the farmer for fruit and veg (and milk going back to the earlier point) to most people in the UK now buying their food from one of small choice a large supermarket chains (who do make super-profits). These supermarket chains treat their suppliers with utter contempt, often changing payment terms and the prices they are willing to pay on a whim. It is not unusual for suppliers - be it farmers, packaging companies or hauliers to be on payment terms of 120 days.

I think what we can all agree on (I hope) is that the minimum wage legislation should be properly enforced and the fines for firms not complying to be punitive enough to deter such behaviour the first instance.

[Airborn Pie]

I take issue with farmers making decent profits or giving nothing to society, if fruit/veg does not get picked it affects UK food supply significantly. In my experience, even allowing for cheap eastern-european labour, farmers really don't make super-profits (they own some pretty expensive land at times but that's a different issue). The problem stems from the shift in the UK market from there being a local greengrocer that was willing to pay a fair price to the farmer for fruit and veg (and milk going back to the earlier point) to most people in the UK now buying their food from one of small choice a large supermarket chains (who do make super-profits). These supermarket chains treat their suppliers with utter contempt, often changing payment terms and the prices they are willing to pay on a whim. It is not unusual for suppliers - be it farmers, packaging companies or hauliers to be on payment terms of 120 days.

I think what we can all agree on (I hope) is that the minimum wage legislation should be properly enforced and the fines for firms not complying to be punitive enough to deter such behaviour the first instance.

Illustrate for me if you will, the greater social advantage in cheaper strawberries? This isn't a staple on which we all depend, it's a sesaonal treat, if it were say potatoes, that may be different.

I agree on you point about supermarkets but we all want cheaper food especially in times of such low wage growth, ideally, we'd all be able to afford organic.

[Mapperleypie]

Illustrate for me if you will, the greater social advantage in cheaper strawberries? This isn't a staple on which we all depend, it's a sesaonal treat, if it were say potatoes, that may be different.

I agree on you point about supermarkets but we all want cheaper food especially in times of such low wage growth, ideally, we'd all be able to afford organic.

I think you have contradicted yourself there

1st sentence - where is greater social advantage in cheaper fruit?

2nd sentence - we all want cheaper food in times of low wage growth.