O/T Labour

[dam617]

I obviously didn’t read the ballot paper well enough I completely missed the bit about the Irish backstop agreement.

Did you forget about the other parts of my reply or simply have no answers.

Bull's-eye!

[drillerpie]

Ah, David Davies. At the time he was the man tasked by May to work on a 'deal' called Canada +++ whilst simulataniously instructing Olly Robbins to work with Barnier on Chequers behind his back.
The things he didn't know eh?

At the time he wasn't anything because it was before the referendum.

[BigFatPie]

No I wasn't.

The biggest factor stopping that would be freedom of movement.
All this talk of economics is fine, but Brexit it deeper than that.

The biggest squealers from MP's, business leaders and celebrities are multi millionaires. They don't suffer bog all from the downside of membership.
Pressure on low paid jobs/housing/services/crime etc.

So those two models would never satisfy the average leaver.

What I did say was, "is why do you have to be in a political union, to have free movement of goods?"

When we joined, we was sold a common market model. Y/N?
Was a drive for a superstate ever mentioned Y/N?
Was no borders/ monetary unions/ an army/ removal of sovereignty/ our laws changed ever mentioned? Y/N?

The EU has slowly gripped Europe in a vice of control, as it leeched into every crack of society.

I know what the ballot paper said BFP.

.

Like virtually all the vocal Brexiters on here and elsewhere, you’re denying reality. You did say how good the Swiss model would be, and you even put a little picture up demonstrating how it would bring all the benefits with none of the downsides.

Now of course you and others are claiming it was no deal you wanted all along because you don’t want to admit what anyone with half a brain could always work out, the fact that the EU was in a much stronger negotiating position than the UK and we were never going to get as good a deal as staying in.

And if you can find a shred of evidence from a reliable source that it was intended to only be a “free trade area’ at the time of the 1975 referendum I’ll happily read it.

[forwardmagpie]

Like virtually all the vocal Brexiters on here and elsewhere, you’re denying reality. You did say how good the Swiss model would be, and you even put a little picture up demonstrating how it would bring all the benefits with none of the downsides.

Now of course you and others are claiming it was no deal you wanted all along because you don’t want to admit what anyone with half a brain could always work out, the fact that the EU was in a much stronger negotiating position than the UK and we were never going to get as good a deal as staying in.

And if you can find a shred of evidence from a reliable source that it was intended to only be a “free trade area’ at the time of the 1975 referendum I’ll happily read it.

Free trade area became Free movement of people which I think began with the 1992 Maastricht treaty, it wasn’t made clear that this was on the agenda when I voted remain in 1975.

[MagpieTony]

Like virtually all the vocal Brexiters on here and elsewhere, you’re denying reality. You did say how good the Swiss model would be, and you even put a little picture up demonstrating how it would bring all the benefits with none of the downsides.

Now of course you and others are claiming it was no deal you wanted all along because you don’t want to admit what anyone with half a brain could always work out, the fact that the EU was in a much stronger negotiating position than the UK and we were never going to get as good a deal as staying in.

And if you can find a shred of evidence from a reliable source that it was intended to only be a “free trade area’ at the time of the 1975 referendum I’ll happily read it.

I have always maintained that a no deal scenario was the best option right from day one. I knew that the EU was always going to be intransigent and I always suspected that TM was the sort of negotiator who could go into a furniture shop with a 50% sale and come out having paid the full price for a sofa. With this in mind, it was obvious that no matter how strong a hand we had, the player didn't understand the rules and would therefore be easily out manoeuvred. And so it has proved. My view has not changed and remains No Deal, leave, then negotiate something that is mutually beneficial.

[ncfcog]

'The British economy is growing faster than both Germany and france and is forecast to continue this growth, dare I say it, in spite of Brexit'.

The earlier poster claimed that the scaremongering has damaged the economy!

Ok, so we are back to listening to what people want us to hear? I can only speak from experience so I will repeat what I have said on other threads to other posters.

I have two businesses, one has only just been formed and the other has been around since 2005. Immediately after the leave vote I lobbied all my contacts and clients to see how we would be affected, half of them are in the UK, the others from overseas both within and outside of the EU.

I got the same reply from all of them that providing we remain competitive then there was no reason to believe they would stop buying from us.

12 months later and our UK sales had started to decline considerably whereas our overseas trade remained pretty much the same. I start asking my clients again why they are not purchasing from us, is it our pricing? Is it our service? It turned out that in most cases they had put a stop on any capital investment until there was an agreement on how the UK leaves the EU. When I dig deeper it becomes apparent that these clients have been quite literally frightened into curtailing their investment plans because of the uncertainty around Brexit created primarily by 'project fear'.

So these clients have stopped buying my products because they are scared to invest until Brexit has been properly resolved. This is what it means to me personally. In the last 12 months my business has lost over 75% of its usual UK trade, to put a figure on that we are talking about that equates to approx £300k. I have had to personally plug the gap to try and keep things ticking over and keep the few staff I have in jobs. I now find myself personally owing 6 figures in guaranteed loans and debts. Mainly because clients in the UK are 'scared' to invest right now. Oh and I've also not been able to pay myself a wage since August last year while I try to get things back on track.

I now find myself spending nearly 90% of my time trying to sell to overseas clients because I am wasting my time on UK prospects in the current climate. I sell to all four corners of the world but with restrictions. I want the UK to be able to generate trade deals with these other economies but while in the EU they have their hands tied to working within EU dictated trade agreements which don't necessarily benefit the UK.

I'm ranting a little so I apologise but I am totally at my wits end now with the inability of those in power to actually do what is needed, the opposition for putting up barriers at every opportunity and those who didn't like the leave result throwing their dummies out the pram and doing everything they can to make matters even worse than they need to be, so yes I do believe, from my own experience that 'project fear' has, in my experience, had a damning impact on our economy and the sooner we get this resolved the better.

[BigFatPie]

Free trade area became Free movement of people which I think began with the 1992 Maastricht treaty, it wasn’t made clear that this was on the agenda when I voted remain in 1975.

So the point you’ve attempted to make repeatedly is that the 1975 referendum is null and void because people couldn’t see into the future, but on the other hand the 2016 one IS valid because...?

[forwardmagpie]

So the point you’ve attempted to make repeatedly is that the 1975 referendum is null and void because people couldn’t see into the future, but on the other hand the 2016 one IS valid because...?

I have never said the 1975 referendum is null and void (or at least in my 60s with a fading memory I don’t think I have) but please feel free to fill in the gaps in my alcohol fuddled brain.

[BigFatPie]

Ok, so we are back to listening to what people want us to hear? I can only speak from experience so I will repeat what I have said on other threads to other posters.

I have two businesses, one has only just been formed and the other has been around since 2005. Immediately after the leave vote I lobbied all my contacts and clients to see how we would be affected, half of them are in the UK, the others from overseas both within and outside of the EU.

I got the same reply from all of them that providing we remain competitive then there was no reason to believe they would stop buying from us.

12 months later and our UK sales had started to decline considerably whereas our overseas trade remained pretty much the same. I start asking my clients again why they are not purchasing from us, is it our pricing? Is it our service? It turned out that in most cases they had put a stop on any capital investment until there was an agreement on how the UK leaves the EU. When I dig deeper it becomes apparent that these clients have been quite literally frightened into curtailing their investment plans because of the uncertainty around Brexit created primarily by 'project fear'.

So these clients have stopped buying my products because they are scared to invest until Brexit has been properly resolved. This is what it means to me personally. In the last 12 months my business has lost over 75% of its usual UK trade, to put a figure on that we are talking about that equates to approx £300k. I have had to personally plug the gap to try and keep things ticking over and keep the few staff I have in jobs. I now find myself personally owing 6 figures in guaranteed loans and debts. Mainly because clients in the UK are 'scared' to invest right now. Oh and I've also not been able to pay myself a wage since August last year while I try to get things back on track.

I now find myself spending nearly 90% of my time trying to sell to overseas clients because I am wasting my time on UK prospects in the current climate. I sell to all four corners of the world but with restrictions. I want the UK to be able to generate trade deals with these other economies but while in the EU they have their hands tied to working within EU dictated trade agreements which don't necessarily benefit the UK.

I'm ranting a little so I apologise but I am totally at my wits end now with the inability of those in power to actually do what is needed, the opposition for putting up barriers at every opportunity and those who didn't like the leave result throwing their dummies out the pram and doing everything they can to make matters even worse than they need to be, so yes I do believe, from my own experience that 'project fear' has, in my experience, had a damning impact on our economy and the sooner we get this resolved the better.

1. Everyone was told at the time of the referendum that a leave vote would create massive uncertainty. You voted to leave anyway, and are now complaining that uncertainty is affecting your business. Nevertheless, this uncertainty is someone else’s fault. What exactly have people who don’t like the result done to make matters worse?

2. You voted to leave because you want the UK to generate its own trade deals. Who are these trade deals with and how long do you think they’ll take to generate. It’s not “project fear” to say that trade deals take years to generate.

3. The quickest way to resolve all this is to remain. Every other route creates years of uncertainty for people like you and others. That’s fact.

[i961pie]

Corrected that for you.

Festival trials day at Cheltenham tomorrow.

Ditto, a bonus with Notts not playing.