Indy Mk II

[scobiemacd]

Soon we'll be able to go to the shops again and ask for 2oz of Kola Kubes.

Fu.ck Europe right in the *****.

[Getintaethem]

I think we can discount some (or a lot of things) that were said yesterday. Passions were high and many people were positioning themselves politically, grandstanding, talking to their bases, opportunism... the whole lot. That was both in the UK and the EU. The News output was a joke yesterday. It is understandable but remember we will now have time to Leave and passions fade over time.

Instead of this, we should have people from all sides coming together to get a plan in the best interests of the UK. The people want that. The biggest risk is the politicians.

The politicians on the whole do not have a clue about the EU. They are misinformed, ignorant and the arguments put forward by both sides were terrible. We did not get any discussion around what Leave or for that matter Remain actually would mean moving forward. The level of ignorance from politicians and the media is palpable. This 2 year negotiation is a myth. It can last as long as both parties wish it to last - that is one of the easier changes. Sturgeon made an economic case for remaining in the EU yesterday. This is fine but this is a political union as much as an economic union. What if we were able to get the economic benefits without the political union?

So what does Leave mean? On one extreme it could mean we do no trade with the EU and on the other extreme it could mean we accept something not much different to what we have now. Obviously neither of these will happen.

I believe what should happen is we use the framework on the Norwegian model. One benefit of this is that we do not have time to make a whole new trade agreement with the EU and we don't have to start from scratch anyway.

We already have the full aquis (the body of EU law) in our law so it is easier to follow the Norway/EFTA model. With regard to future change, we can repeal unwanted parts of the aquis (or make it specific to EU trade) but we won't want to repeal everything and we won't have the capacity to do so in 2 years. Norway/EFTA is a first step. The EU social stuff can just be repealed as it isn't about trade. (this is the stuff that stops us from deporting criminals)

A common complaint with regards to the Norway model is that it means you need to take the regulation from the EU without having a say. However, this is a misunderstanding on the whole. Our agreement with the EU will be around trade in the common market. The main power in trade now is in the global bodies not the EU. The EU lost its power about 10-20 years ago. So for vehicle standards for example, we do this at UNECE where Norway has a seat. In the EU, the EU represents us at UNECE, negotiates with the other states, gets agreement then makes a directive then we implement this in UK law. If we leave the EU and go Norway/EFTA, we get to go and actually negotiate at UNECE and then implement the decision - we get to actually have a say and cut out the middleman.

So with this model we could have a non contributory access to the common market, our own migration laws, a non-exclusive trade deal so we could get new trade deals with the USA, China, Korea etc., a repeal of the social aquis and a declaration of supremacy of UK law. i.e. something that the vast majority of people would want and would support in this country.

We also avoid financial Armageddon and WWIII.

[TheDeeDon]

One of the reasons I was so pissed off with the SNP during the EU debate was that they should have had an open vote within the party instead of using it for their political means, this should have been an open vote with party politics left to one side and I know it's easier said than done. I think the the fact that in Scotland only 69% of the voters chose to vote on Thursday was a bit worrying and may suggest that a win in any forthcoming referendum is not a foregone conclusion.

That said, we were clearly told back in 2014, that to stay in the Europe we had to stay in the UK, so that would have influenced a lot of people to remain part of the UK, so Sturgeon is correct when she pointed out a material change in circumstances. I would certainly hope people remember the outright lies of 2014 to keep us in the union and would be interesting to see how Westminster campaigns for the remain side. If we do have another referendum up here I can see Labour going for the break with the UK.

Have to admit to thinking Sturgeon was head and shoulders above any politician who gave interviews yesterday.

[Brian Grantland]

So politicians know nothing about the EU but you're an expert...the same Norway Model their Prime Minister said we wouldn't like - that Norway model, the one it costs a country to access the EEA but you don't have a say, that Norway model.

[Aldo1983]

It's not a forgone conclusion but with a demoralised Tory and Labour party, lots of lies being exposed and coming out of the EU then now would be the best time if they want a win. It would be a very different campaign and hopefully a much bigger margin to finally put it to bed either way.

[Barnared]

For Nigel Farage and Glastonbury maybe

Most of Scotland will view this as a terrible day but it will be seen as a pivotal moment in years to come.

It will be seen as a good, good day for Scotland

[Mason89]

The economic arguments don't interest me in the slightest. I watched the folk getting interviewed in Burnley & Hartlepool yesterday & I have absolutely nothing in common with them. I'm also completely bored of these bed wetting old Etonian w@nks calling the shots.

[Getintaethem]

So politicians know nothing about the EU but you're an expert...the same Norway Model their Prime Minister said we wouldn't like - that Norway model, the one it costs a country to access the EEA but you don't have a say, that Norway model.

I am really sorry for trying to add some background to the debate with some stuff that non politicians are saying about the negotiation. I think that the politicians have also been shown to be pretty ignorant on the EU... if nothing else has been shown in this referendum, surely that is.

I will reduce it back to your level though. Just for you... ****s sake min, these remainers are self righteous morons. Happy?

Using the Norway model as the basis is entirely different to using the Norway model. This is a classic example of the ignorance of the politicians and media. For example, I can use an employment contract as the basis of my employment with a company. However, the details that are in the contract are what is important. It could say that I need to work 7 days a week, 70 hours and do night shifts every second day. Would I like that? (given your analogy). Or it could say, I can work whenever I want and get 60 days paid vacation a year. Using the Norway model as a basis is entirely different to agreeing to the terms of their model.

It makes sense to use it as a basis because we already have the EU laws within our own laws. These are all referenced within this model therefore, it cuts down the time to reach agreement. It does not mean we need to stick to the laws that are written into UK law.

[Getintaethem]

Yep, for once I agree with you. We are out of the EU! Great day for Scotland.

[Getintaethem]

That said, we were clearly told back in 2014, that to stay in the Europe we had to stay in the UK, so that would have influenced a lot of people to remain part of the UK, so Sturgeon is correct when she pointed out a material change in circumstances. I would certainly hope people remember the outright lies of 2014 to keep us in the union and would be interesting to see how Westminster campaigns for the remain side. If we do have another referendum up here I can see Labour going for the break with the UK.

I am not sure I understand the argument. I may be misunderstanding. We were told to stay in the EU we needed to stay in the UK. This was because at the time the EU was saying that it was not a foregone conclusion we would be allowed in. Every member state would need to approve it etc. and even if this was a certainty it would take years to approve as we would need to meet their criteria etc. and before that even get it onto the agenda. Now there is disagreement on how long this would take and whether it would be approved but the above still holds true.

The UK has had a referendum, something that was promised by Cameron before the Independence Referendum in Scotland. The people of the UK have voted to leave the EU.

I am not sure who lied?