OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I'm not interested in exerting pressure or influencing change in the eu, which I think is impossible anyway.

As a member of the G7, we have a significant say in World Trade and our role in NATO gives us a voice in world affairs. Are you saying because they're a member of the eu, Malta will have a greater influence worldwide?

You're right of course about the G7 and NATO. I just don't understand your hostility to our continental neighbours and why you and the Brexiteers in general seem so hell bent on going it alone especially when our membership of the EU has so obviously coincided with a period of relative prosperity. I guess we're never going to agree...as for Malta...it's not a place I know anything about but I imagine the Maltese clearly gain some sense of security from their membership.

[Ram59]

I'm sure Malta get a great sense of security, that's the problem with the over bloated eu.

With so many little countries and even regions (Wallonia) having an equal and disproportionate power of veto, the eu will cost us more and more.

Next time we want a trade deal sorted with another major nation, what will happen? I'll tell you, we'll have another Wallonia, it might be even be a whole country this time like Malta, which is 300 times smaller in GDP than us. So it comes down to us net contributing countries effectively paying the small countries sweeteners so we can go about our business. This won't stop at trade deals either, they can effectively blackmail us on all decisions. IE. 'we would like to agree with that decision, but we would really like the eu to pay for a new parliament building for us '

Surely you can't be be happy with this state of affairs.

[roger_ramjet]

Or these affairs of state....

[Andy_Faber]

For those wanting some stats to reinforce our waffle, this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/eur...6097.stm#start is a useful starter for ten. It shows AFTER REBATE what UK contributes and compares it to all other countries in EU. It also explains the rationale for the rebate, which wasn't 'negotiated by Margaret thatcher' is was a result of a lot of detailed negotiation before she stole the limelight. the simple maths of UK leaving and then negotiating a free trade deal with EU means there's a £3bn hole in the EU budget, so the remaining wealthy nations will have to contribute more or the poorer countries getting less. My admittedly flaky assessment is that UK leaving will be a big but manageable bump in the road for EU, but if another biggie follows suit (especially The Netherlands) it won't be so easy.

[swaledale]

So now you agree that £161m per week goes to the eu to be spent elsewhere and that all we receive is debatably a better economy, which will only be proven one way or another after we leave. So, the average taxpayer subsidises the eu to the tune of £5 per week, which would be enough to build 2 new schools per week or a new super hospital, like the one in Birmingham every 3 weeks, or 1500 new homes every week. I know where I want my money spent.

Subject to negotiation, we may still have most of the benefits of membership, being access to the single market like many other countries in the world. Even if our companies were charged a 5% levy on their goods, with the lowering in value of the pound, their goods will still be cheaper than the beginning of June.

So you're saying that while we stick to the eu rules, no one else bothers and gets away with it. You want to be a member of a group like that?

Yes, there are many good regulations and laws to come out of the eu, but there are also many bad ones which are not suitable for a country like ours. It would be nice to pick and choose which ones we like, I mean they don't have a copyright on any laws do they?

Britain joined 8 other countries in the eec, a common market, in 1973. Would we have joined if we had known that it would turn into a 28 country superstate where many of our laws and regulations would be taken out of our hands? Tony Benn was ridiculed when he said that this would happen.

So we move on to the power and influence that we have now. Lets compare with Malta, we have 300 times their economy, do we have any more power, no because they use the euro, they probably have more than us. I don't think they contribute £161m per week to the coffers either. Also, how can the eu work when now not only do individual countries have the veto, even regions in a country can hold up trade negotiations, ie. Wallonia region in Belgium regarding the Canada trade deal.

The eu is too large and inefficient to be fit for purpose and I agree with you that in an ideal world, it would be best to change from within, but sadly this wont happen. They had the chance when Cameron tried to get a few small changes and was rejected.

Btw, I asked Anag, but had no reply, were you in favour of joining the euro? Many of the same arguments were put forward then.

The economic benefits arent debateable its the economic benefit of Bexit that highly debateable!

A CBI review puts the net benefit of EU membership to the UK in the region of 4-5% of GDP or £62bn-£78bn a year – roughly the economies of the North East and Northern Ireland taken together.

Its a complete simplistic fallacy to say that the money that goes in contributions to the EU would be available for the things you mention - most would go on subsidies to farmers, the millions it will cost over the enxt decade to extricate ourselves from the EU and the cost of employing all those officials who will be administering the paperwork which Brexit will mean such as visas, work permits, checking and enforcing regulations etc etc.

UK firms’ access to the Single Market goes beyond a standard free-trade agreement - the EU has eliminated tariff barriers and customs procedures within its borders, and has taken strides towards removing non-tariff barriers - such as different product regulations - by enforcing EU-wide competition law and coordinating product regulations.

Investment flows across borders inside the EU have roughly doubled following the introduction of the Single Market. As the EU’s leading investment destination, the UK was a key beneficiary: the EU accounted for 47% of the UK’s stock of inward FDI at the end of 2011, with investments worth over $1.2 trillion.

he UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP. As a comparison that’s around a quarter of what the UK spends on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spend. The £116 per person net contribution is less than that from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and the Netherlands.

Exactly what laws from the Eu are bad for the UK?

And to answer your euro question, IF it had been properly handled and strict entry criteria applied, the Euro made sense, unfortunately of course this did not happen and we wisely remained outside of it. As we didnt give up control over border checks.

[Trickytreesreds]

So, in effect to the last few posts-

We didn't vote into a superstate, we joined a hand full of economically similar countries. This has now swelled, by stealth and guile to include numerous sub countries, which we pay for.

Because we have been in as long as we have, we're trapped and should stay to help that plan grow even more?
Regardless of the misery loads of us feel with the policies it enforces?

Oh well, I'm, convinced now after all. Perhaps I'm Italian or French after all. Shall I switch sides, or just surrender?

PS, love the Malta comparison. A country covering 316 sq km now slaughters us and wants us "punished". 50 years ago, under our umbrella, yet now has a new gravy train it doesn't want stopped. Well It's one place off my holiday list and every UK citizen should do the same. Lets see if Brussels makes up that shortfall.

[swaledale]

So, in effect to the last few posts-

We didn't vote into a superstate, we joined a hand full of economically similar countries. This has now swelled, by stealth and guile to include numerous sub countries, which we pay for.

Because we have been in as long as we have, we're trapped and should stay to help that plan grow even more?
Regardless of the misery loads of us feel with the policies it enforces?

Oh well, I'm, convinced now after all. Perhaps I'm Italian or French after all. Shall I switch sides, or just surrender?

PS, love the Malta comparison. A country covering 316 sq km now slaughters us and wants us "punished". 50 years ago, under our umbrella, yet now has a new gravy train it doesn't want stopped. Well It's one place off my holiday list and every UK citizen should do the same. Lets see if Brussels makes up that shortfall.

Could you be anymore xenophobic? I suppose you think every action and word spoken by the UK over the last century has been fair, reasonable and with the best interests of all other countries in mind?

Ye gods not only do you not base your views on unsubstantiated rumours but your views are so narrow minded!

[Trickytreesreds]

Could you be anymore xenophobic? I suppose you think every action and word spoken by the UK over the last century has been fair, reasonable and with the best interests of all other countries in mind?

Ye gods not only do you not base your views on unsubstantiated rumours but your views are so narrow minded!

What because I won't go on holiday to Malta, after an attempt at bullying? lmao.
You are so funny Swale, pleased keep going. It's comedy gold.

[swaledale]

Nice to see swale being civilised again, I agree. But he's wrong on so many counts.

I don't any rational brexiteer blames all our ills on the eu, but there a few down to the eu and I, like many, feel we will do better without the eu.

The eu hasn't drained our finances, but it is a drain on them. We pay 350m a week but receive back about half in grants and subsidies. That costs money and is undisputed.

We are not hogtied by by eu rules and regulations, but we are certainly restricted by them. I have suffered then in business, my small farmer friend has to work with the same rules as a much larger French farmer, whereas the rules are fine for the large farm, they are stupid for the small farmer renting individual fields of other people. Then there's a local road development which had some eu finding, resulting in a bus lane on a busy dual carriageway, for 4 buses an hour at peak time, and over a half mile detour for cars!

What a ridiculous statement to say we are no less secure. We are now relying on EVERY eu country to have enough controls when granting asylum. 1 weak country can allow anyone to become an eu citizen and therefore free movement to the UK.

To say the eu compliments our objectives, is only true if we agree with the rest of the eu.

Military wise, I can't remember seeing many eu operations, but I do recall frequent NATO exercises.

The eu has many problems and I think they'll increase with further expansion. As I've said before, to stay in the eu is as big, probably bigger gamble than leaving, who knows where the eu will end up? Incidently, were you in favour of joining the Euro?

And on the subject of farming Ram59, this is what your small farmer friend is fighting against not the EU, the bloody NFU!

I don’t feel represented by the NFU. In fact, I find myself increasingly alienated by their self-righteous lobbying for the short-term interests of a small number of large-scale farmers. This especially applies to their resistance ... to even the tamest environmental regulation; to public access to land; and to any redirection of farming subsidies to encourage younger, smaller-scale entrants to the industry."

[swaledale]

What because I won't go on holiday to Malta, after an attempt at bullying? lmao.
You are so funny Swale, pleased keep going. It's comedy gold.

Even your not thick enough to think my labelling you as a xenophobe is down to that!

By the way your not even funny, sad, deluded and so eager to grasp at anything that seems to support your twsted agenda.