OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I first heard the Trump/Gove interview on the radio yesterday, and I was hoping that the TV footage I saw later would reveal Gove to be wearing a little school cap and shorts, he really came over as an old-fashioned 'fag' trying to impress his prefect. Quite disappointed it didn't. Mrs Faber suggested that Gove's repeated use of the word 'yes' was because he could only squeak out one syllable at a time while he had his tongue up Trump's arse.

HOWEVER, at least Trump is offering support. I think the Obama thing was a massive tactical mistake and made me personally think a lot less of him - it was as if he, Osbourne and Richard Branson had colluded on a set of messages to scare the public, and by heck that backfired.

Agree with every word of that first paragraph although, for one who thinks in pictures, Mrs. F's imagery leaves me feeling more than a little nauseous.
Unfortunately you're clearly right about 'the Obama thing' backfiring, which perfectly illustrates the current acceptance of Trump's views as reflecting that level of hypocrisy to which I was alluding.
As for 'at least Trump is offering support'...a case of 'beware of Greeks bearing gifts', as they once said in Troy...and yes I know he's actually got Scottish/German ancestry but it still seems appropriate.

[Andy_Faber]

Agree with every word of that first paragraph although, for one who thinks in pictures, Mrs. F's imagery leaves me feeling more than a little nauseous.
Unfortunately you're clearly right about 'the Obama thing' backfiring, which perfectly illustrates the current acceptance of Trump's views as reflecting that level of hypocrisy to which I was alluding.
As for 'at least Trump is offering support'...a case of 'beware of Greeks bearing gifts', as they once said in Troy...and yes I know he's actually got Scottish/German ancestry but it still seems appropriate.

Following on from my comment about 'fags', some reading this might not even know what I'm talking about, and that is relevant to the 'progress' Swale was beating on about earlier. I was out with a friend before Christmas who is a couple of years older than my 55 (although the b****** looks ten years younger than me) who went to a public school and came out of it I guess in summer '77. he was one of the 'unfortunate' ones who was a fag in his early school life but as he went through his school years the practise was phased out and he didn't get the benefits of being 'fagged for'. Some of the practises he described go a long way towards explaining how 'society' let Jimmy Saville get away with what he did.

[Ram59]

Personally, I don't take any notice of what Trump says, but Obama annoyed me because he was trying to influence our vote with threats that he had no power to carry out.

[Andy_Faber]

So here we go. Imelda May's twelve points (of which the BBC could only list five originally - useless old Beeb). what do you all think now?

1. We will provide certainty wherever we can.

2. Leaving the European Union will mean that our laws will be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.

3. A stronger Britain demands that we strengthen the precious union between the four nations of the United Kingdom.

4. We will deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the commons travel area with the Republic of Ireland.

5. Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe.

6. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain & rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

7. Not only will the Government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them.

8. We will pursue a bold and ambitious Free Trade Agreement with the European Union.

9. It is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation.

10. We will welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives.

11. We will continue to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence policy even as we leave the EU itself.

12. We believe a phased process of implementation will be in the interests of Britain, the EU institutions and member states.

Regretably no mention of a second Scottish Independance referendum with only English and Welsh allowed to vote, as I was hoping for...

[ramAnag]

Okay...I'm no economist...I'll leave all that to Roger, AF and Swale...but I'm reasonably intelligent and after PMTM's comments this morning my take is...we seem to either want our cake and eat it or we want to leave absolutely everything to do with Europe, including tariff free trade, within the next two years. In the meantime the pound continues to fall against all other currencies making all the imports we depend on and holidays we enjoy a great deal more expensive. Inflation is up 0.4% more this month than anticipated but everything will be alright because the President Elect of the USA, a man who in his businessman incarnation was notorious for failing to pay his workers, says we're doing okay. He wants to do business with the Brits but there again he was also elected on a mandate of promising jobs for his countrymen via the rebuilding of US manufacturing. So...which bit of this is good news for us in Britain, is this really what the Brexiteers wanted or is it all rapidly turning from a dreadful mistake to total lunacy?

[Trickytreesreds]

Andy, most of that is very reasonable. But it isn't going to happen, purely because of
1.the vengeful politics of Junkers cronies, their master plan has been torpedoed, they aren't happy
2. Countries like Poland/Hungary/Romania are never going to want to stop allowing their citizens, to come at will
3. The small countries have little to lose trade wise with us, so will be awkward, knowing their purse has been clipped.

Reality- hard Brexit it is then

[roger_ramjet]

I dont want to reignite the in or out vote again, so will not rise to that bait Mangara!

As to the "planks of exit" they do not seem that dramatic and are the usual grand sweeping words of framework directives. As such they seem to represent a firm but soft exit although for the life of me I dont get why "4" the commitment to free movement for the Irish is still in there - unless this is a practical necessity for Ulster. Just because Ireland enjoyed a privileged status before 1973, why does it have to persist now? They are an independent nation for Christ's sake - and have been for almost 100 years. We have spent much of that time at war with them.

"2" is no different to what happens now - only difference is that EU tells us what to pass as laws in London, Edinburgh etc etc

"3" is interesting - not really a Brexit issue more a kick in the head aimed at the SNP

"5" will have many rejoicing in the working class areas across the UK. They will be singing "we'll get our jobs back from those johnny foreigners" in the local pubs well into the night, conveniently forgetting that they dont have the skills to do thos jobs nor the inclination to do them for an affordable wage to the employer. But hey, Tricky will be happy!

"6" will antagonise those that loved "5" and vica versa

"7" wont happen unless Corbyn gets in - so maybe 13 is a bad idea

"8" "9" and "10" are the economic issues where the devil is in the detail and it neither includes nor denies staying in the EEA via EFTA or otherwise. This to me will be the critical issue as it will be the hybrid solution: where we would try to get some of the good aspects of EU without some of the bad bits.

"11" is what NATO is for

"1" and "12" are meaningless philosophical notions

"13" (Andy's one) would be the best as we would doubtless then move to expel the Scotch and Welsh too thus leaving us allied with the European powerhouses such as Norway, Iceland and Leichtenstein IF they let us into EFTA. If not its England, Ulster and the former Yugoslavia against the world!

it would be fun though to see the Scotch separated because they wanted to stay in EU, but then being rejected by the EU as not "fit and proper" as being too weak a nation in their own right (as is my current understanding of what would happen)

[Trickytreesreds]

"5" will have many rejoicing in the working class areas across the UK. They will be singing "we'll get our jobs back from those johnny foreigners" in the local pubs well into the night, conveniently forgetting that they dont have the skills to do thos jobs nor the inclination to do them for an affordable wage to the employer. But hey, Tricky will be happy!


So Roger, you misconstrue me.

I have never been against immigration. What I object to is unchecked immigration. If someone is needed( I'm aiming this at the pathetic whinge of the NHS will collapse), then by all means, VISA time. It works in other countries, why not here. My mantra has always been, that the policy currently running is creating an "underclass" of ****s in a wilderness. Train them. Teach them.
Don't just fetch in an east European, to do a job for the same wage as a 17 year old.Long term, it's a recipe for disaster when us older lot retire. Look at Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece -- 50% unemployment for under 25's. That's the reality of the EU and it's policies. All it does is encourage mass movement.
As for inclination, then it also means, that pressure must be applied. Either you work and learn. Or we the state, will not support you. I have seen it first hand in interviews. "Yearh but, I'll have to pay my own rent etc"

Free movement, lets Brussels off the hook for it's policies. It's like listening to Tebbitt again, "get on your bike"

[ramAnag]

No 'bait' Rog...you weren't one of them anyway, but I am genuinely interested in knowing whether those who voted 'Leave' - having thought it all through or as a knee jerk - are now getting what they wanted or expected. We seem to be beginning to reap what we sowed as far as I can tell and it doesn't look too clever.

[AdiSalisbury]

I am genuinely interested in knowing whether those who voted 'Leave' - having thought it all through or as a knee jerk - are now getting what they wanted or expected.

Pretty much expected, nothings really happened, a bit of uncertainty in the markets, UK Gov making speeches to send out confidence (eg look at £ today), EU politicians making panicked warnings / threats to UK because they know that it's not good for their own economies to lose us from the EU.

But again, nothing has happened, we are still in the EU and operating as such, so nothing to really judge by.