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Thread: OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

  1. #3601
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    I now think we'll leave with 'no deal'. Maybe we should have had Noel Edmonds and his man on the phone involved in all this

    I think in one area that will hit EU MUCH harder than UK, and that's the Irish border. IMO UK will decline to have a physical border and call EU's bluff on it
    Then you really do not ave a clue, sure it will be a bad deal for the EU, but it will be catastrophic for the UK - and yes the Uk could decline to have a hard border, Ireland however will have one - seriously if your going to comment please ensure you have some idea about the facts!

  2. #3602
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    It does?

    The NHS is a core part of our sharing / caring society but it is essentially unworkable in an ageing and decaying population as that 10% would need to double if everyone were to get what they wanted. Same as the other product of that era of social enlightenment: the state pension. Again unworkable in an ageing society that isnt dying out soon enough. Add to that social care to make an unholy trilogy born of the same mindset and its pretty clear where some 50% of our GDP goes. Bear in mind this is GROSS DP as well.

    Its no surprise that whole area will become a festering sore as the "me generation" - or whatever the current 16-35 group call themselves - slowly understand that its them who has to fund it, along with their student loans for the pointless degree that gets them no job (no, not aimed at just the social media students here!) but hey, someone encouraged them to do it.

    Set in that context 0.4% isnt a lot, but expressed in LSD it still buys a lot of nurses, hospitals, winter fuel supplements, JSA's etc and so on. A drop in the ocean compared to the whole "social services" spend outlined above though, however that is all doomed to collapse into a black hole of privatisation over the next 20 years as people will have to pay for themselves or go without. For too long society has been dependent on the centre paying for everything - wake up and smell the fish: its unsustainable, but for now every little 0.4% will help prop it up until I die!!
    Actually had the National Insurance scheme not been fiddled by the Tories back in the 90's there woudn't be a pensions issue as if companies hadn't stopped paying into pensions funds when they were in surplus there wouldn't be a pensions issue - yes folks might have had to pay a bit more in contributions but paying for a pension funding pensions would be more than affordable if managed properly - one shouldn;t listen to accountants too much.

    Lets face it people can afford car finance, sky tv, smart phones etc. etc. The government can blow millions on other things, its a question of choice not economics!

    The NHS is more complicated, largely because we don't manage demand properly, but is core ethic is fine, provide free health care to people within a limit - rather than age its not being firm on what the NHS should and should not do that is required but people expect it to fund everything they want, irrespective of whether its necessary.

  3. #3603
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    To be clear 37% of the Uk decided, not what the Uk decided? 37% is not big majority nor frankly is 52% over 48% of those who voted to follow through on such a decision which will have ramifications for years to come.

    Quite why the majority in this country have to potentially suffer the disastrous consequences of the bigoted, the ignorant and the backward looking people who largely voted leave - I still meet supposedly intelligent people whose sole reason for voting leave was the £350 million going to the NHS! - is beyond me but that democracy folks - a small majority and not even the majority of the voting population vote for economic suicide and nobody seems able to stop it - still I'm confident reality will prevail and we will end up in the single market and customs union and if the sum riot, well time to call in the troops!
    I just checked back and I think you made the 37% point before

  4. #3604
    Quote Originally Posted by MadAmster View Post
    I also posted these 3 questions on Facebook. Just the one answer on there. The answers he gave were Yes, Yes and Yes. Just like the answers given on here.

    These, very consistent, answers have me confused.

    It seems that:

    1. People understood that the referendum was advisory prior to the vote.
    2. People understood that the PM would accept whatever the vote decided and carry it out.
    3. People understood that the "side" gaining 50% +1 or more of THE VOTES CAST would carry the day.

    So, people understood that although the referendum was advisory, whichever action gained 50% + 1 or more of the votes cast, leave or remain, that is what would happen.

    That begs the question, if you understood all of the above, why all the use of "stats" and %'s to try and show the result to be "invalid". The government carrying out the result was always going to happen. It happened to be leave that got the necessary number of votes. (whether there should have been a qualification requiring 2/3 of votes cast or another caveat to render the vote valid is another discussion topic but there wasn't such a prereq)

    12 million didn't bother to vote. In UK voting, those votes don't count. If 11% of those had voted remain, the UK would be remaining. They didn't so the UK is leaving.

    ..... and that is exactly what, it seems, everybody understood would happen if leave got 1 or more votes more than remain.

    That is the point I was hoping the answers to my questions would make. Those complaining knew the score beforehand and I don't recall anybody, anywhere on the internet or in the press arguing the 50% +1 until remain had lost. Many of those didn't bother to vote. They should look, long and hard, in the mirror.
    But Farage said if it was a remain vote that he would continue to push for another referendum. Theres absolutely no political reason why given the lies and misinformation including one very big lie on a red bus, another referendum should not or cannot be held - plus government is supposed to be in the interests of the country as a whole, I'm guessing if for arguments sake 52% had voted in favour of exterminating all thsoe with ginger hair we wouldn't be doing that on the basis it was the will of the people?

  5. #3605
    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    But Farage said if it was a remain vote that he would continue to push for another referendum. Theres absolutely no political reason why given the lies and misinformation including one very big lie on a red bus, another referendum should not or cannot be held - plus government is supposed to be in the interests of the country as a whole, I'm guessing if for arguments sake 52% had voted in favour of exterminating all thsoe with ginger hair we wouldn't be doing that on the basis it was the will of the people?
    Yes he did, I had forgotten that, but Farage is a prat (IMO). The £350M a week on the bus? That was there as an example of what COULD change, not what WOULD change. The majority of people knew that it wouldn't happen, just that it could.

    The EU does cost the UK £350M a week GROSS. The NET cost is about £180M. The rest comes back via the rebate we get, in grants we get and in subsidies we get. This makes the UK one of the only three net payers to the EU, to the best of my knowledge. Holland and Germany being the other 2. The governments and taxpayers of both countries are hugely aware that the UK leaving will weigh heavily on them as they are the only 2 who CAN pick up the slack.


    As for %'s, You can look at the stats in many ways.

    1. Only 37% voted leave
    2. Leave won the vote 52% - 48%
    3. 63% didn't vote leave
    4. 67% didn't vote remain


    With regard to your Pensions post in reply to Geoff, you are partly right. You omitted to add that governments, both left and right and the one coalition we had, all KNEW that the Baby Boomers would become a Profusion of Pensioners around this time and purposely made absolutely no effort to make contingency plans as that would cost money which would mean higher taxes and/or NI contributions which would lead to the government of the day losing the next election. Basically, instead of looking after OUR futures they decided on self preservation as the best way forward. Best for whom, the few or the many?

  6. #3606
    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    By coincidence I had to pay for some very minor medical treatment in the U.S. a couple of days ago...$100 to see a doctor and nearly $60 for a routine course of antibiotics. Is that what we have to look forward to?
    To start with, I hope you are either better now or getting there.

    The US Healthcare is a rip-off. Hospitals can charge what the hell they like, and they do. A bag of saline solution, aka salt water, can cost up to $700 in the US. Cost price to produce? Less than $1 I would guess. Whatever happens in the next few months, we need to ensure that half a dozen people who already have way more than they could ever spend don't taake over the NHS and start ripping the UK patients off the way US ones have been for quite some time.

  7. #3607

  8. #3608
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    I like the gal, and she’d be welcome any time at my aunty Bridie’s, in Belfast, but she’d better wear something skimpy because aunty B runs her heating on full 24/7 365 days a year because it’s the cheapest option! Seriously her lack of grasp of basic numeracy and economics makes her more dangerous than Diane Abbot.

  9. #3609
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    I like the gal, and she’d be welcome any time at my aunty Bridie’s, in Belfast, but she’d better wear something skimpy because aunty B runs her heating on full 24/7 365 days a year because it’s the cheapest option! Seriously her lack of grasp of basic numeracy and economics makes her more dangerous than Diane Abbot.
    I assume you’re referring to the dreadful Esther rather than awful Arlene.
    Either way, it’s a sad side effect of (in the name of Democracy) Brexit that we are now beholden to these few Irish fundamentalists.

  10. #3610
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    I assume you’re referring to the dreadful Esther rather than awful Arlene.
    Either way, it’s a sad side effect of (in the name of Democracy) Brexit that we are now beholden to these few Irish fundamentalists.
    No I'm talking about Arlene who oversaw (lol) the Irish energy scheme, which due to a ****up of biblical (sic) proportions massively incentivised people (who signed up before the loophole was noticed) to waste energy. 'Ash For Cash'. My aunt Bridie isn't actually on the scheme but I have a number of fb contacts raking it in

    On a related note, the BBC are reporting that, based on a study they commissioned, 37% of the nation believe UK economy will be worse off in the long term. So by your reasoning, with 63% NOT thinking we'll be worse off, wehay! bring it on!

  11. #3611
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    Then you really do not ave a clue, sure it will be a bad deal for the EU, but it will be catastrophic for the UK - and yes the Uk could decline to have a hard border, Ireland however will have one - seriously if your going to comment please ensure you have some idea about the facts!
    That doesn't even make sense. You have long enough between these occasional interventions, try to be clearer.

  12. #3612
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    No I'm talking about Arlene who oversaw (lol) the Irish energy scheme, which due to a ****up of biblical (sic) proportions massively incentivised people (who signed up before the loophole was noticed) to waste energy. 'Ash For Cash'. My aunt Bridie isn't actually on the scheme but I have a number of fb contacts raking it in

    On a related note, the BBC are reporting that, based on a study they commissioned, 37% of the nation believe UK economy will be worse off in the long term. So by your reasoning, with 63% NOT thinking we'll be worse off, wehay! bring it on!
    Bring it on Andy? You mean end the benefits of 750+ treaties many allowing us to trade freely with the EU and about forty other non EU countries and others covering such ***** issues as air worthiness, driving licences, travel, citizens’ rights and food safety.
    Grand idea...as your Aunt Bridie, but very few others, might say.
    Not one of your better posts imo, especially as you freely admit, in any second referendum, you’d vote ‘Remain’!

  13. #3613
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Bring it on Andy? You mean end the benefits of 750+ treaties many allowing us to trade freely with the EU and about forty other non EU countries and others covering such ***** issues as air worthiness, driving licences, travel, citizens’ rights and food safety.
    Grand idea...as your Aunt Bridie, but very few others, might say.
    Not one of your better posts imo, especially as you freely admit, in any second referendum, you’d vote ‘Remain’!
    Sorry RA, it was just a bit of flippancy in response to the wearisome 37% argument. I'm just a bit disheartened not by the debate as such because GOOD debate is healthy, but by the way its hardened people, entrenched opinions and set friend against friend. Despite being a 'Remainer' by vote, I've been pretty appalled by the behaviour of many Remainers, particularly in casting Leavers as in some way 'thick' - we have amongst our small band on FM a number of posters who either voted Leave or understand the Leave perspective who are a long way from being thick, yet if they offered their views in many forums I've visited, they would be pilloried wthout any chance of developing an argument. Its not helped by almost all media outlets having 'taken a stance', including my long standing hobby horse the BBC which has developed an undertone of dismissiveness, in fact almost a mocking tone, towards Leavers (and right-leaning people) over the last three or so years that I have been soaking up the media. But there is entrenchment and bigotry on both/all sides. [/QUOTE]

  14. #3614
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    Sorry RA, it was just a bit of flippancy in response to the wearisome 37% argument. I'm just a bit disheartened not by the debate as such because GOOD debate is healthy, but by the way its hardened people, entrenched opinions and set friend against friend. Despite being a 'Remainer' by vote, I've been pretty appalled by the behaviour of many Remainers, particularly in casting Leavers as in some way 'thick' - we have amongst our small band on FM a number of posters who either voted Leave or understand the Leave perspective who are a long way from being thick, yet if they offered their views in many forums I've visited, they would be pilloried wthout any chance of developing an argument. Its not helped by almost all media outlets having 'taken a stance', including my long standing hobby horse the BBC which has developed an undertone of dismissiveness, in fact almost a mocking tone, towards Leavers (and right-leaning people) over the last three or so years that I have been soaking up the media. But there is entrenchment and bigotry on both/all sides.
    [/QUOTE]

    I think I’ve made a point of not referring to those who voted ‘Leave’ as ‘thick’ Andy, although I do hold the view that the majority of the public are too ignorant and uninformed for a decision of this magnitude to have ever been put to a popular vote.
    Unfortunately your ‘bring it on’ message is one seriously shared by a number of ‘Leavers’ and while you may be being ‘flippant’ there are others who, despite all the evidence, are adamant in their belief that this is exactly what we should do.
    Of course there will be ‘Remainers’ who have behaved in an objectionable way however exactly the same is true of some ‘Leavers’ as was especially true in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum.
    I never understand your anti BBC tirades, compared with Fox and CNN over here they provide the epitome of fair and balanced coverage and I too can only mock those anywhere near the far right (as opposed to ‘right leaning’). They may not be ‘thick’ but they are, by definition, a collection of intolerant, reactionary bigots who are totally lacking in terms of decency and compassion and have sadly found a hopefully temporary mouthpiece in the likes of Trump and Farage.

  15. #3615
    compared with Fox and CNN over here[/QUOTE]

    Are you still in the States then?

  16. #3616
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    compared with Fox and CNN over here
    Are you still in the States then?[/QUOTE]

    Well spotted! I’ll pm you.

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