OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

Have to say, haven't heard it all but, I agree with every word of what I have heard from Tony Blair on this subject this morning. Pity it takes a partially discredited and former PM to raise the issues and make the points that so desperately need to be made over our current lemming like plunge towards a 'hard' Brexit. I know he has made some mistakes, catastrophic ones too in the Middle East, but at least I was at last reminded of what a politician capable of joined up and grown up thought sounded like. Everything Corbyn should have been saying but hasn't imo.

Well he was speaking to the pro Europe "Open Britain" group in the City and so he was to a large extent preaching to the converted: leastwise I dont suppose his speech changed anyone's mind who was there!

I have mixed feelings on this sort of thing. is it a positive contribution to the process or is it just another political has been trying to revive his public image (and indeed revenue stream) by being vaguely controvsial? if it is simply a has been profiteering then I think it is not useful, whether you agree with what he said or not. Brexits is not an appropriate forum for trying to get back into the limelight. its a bit like Ratty re-emerging from his dank lair and saying something contrary just so we dont forget he is still around!

We may or may not be heading lemming like over the cliff: who knows, but we (as in the majority of those who bothered to vote, and not including me) decided to head for Dover and now parliament has ratified the decision - you might say under duress - so what use would another vote be? You might say the same thing after every vote that has ever taken place - oooh lets do it again until we get the answer I want. If the Miss World competition had not fallen foul of political rectitude, then would we keep calling for a revote if our favoured girl did not win?

If we did go down the revote / check if you still want it vote after agreeing exit terms, how is that going to work? A change of heart would mean a colossal waste of time and money had occurred. The climb down would be nothing short of a national humiliation. Who is to say that the EU would even let us back in if we "changed our collective minds" after having negotiated an exit. If they did, how onerous would those remain/come back terms be, what might become of our special rebate? Would the revised "remain terms" then need another ratification vote? it could go on for ever.

I voted remain but with a divided mind. When we voted out I have accepted that view and embrace it, for good or evil. We cannot go on second guessing ourselves and prevaricating or we will still be in this no mans land ten years later with neither the espoused benefits of leaving nor those of staying actually being realised.

So in conclusion - I think Blair's tirade was not useful or constructive. he just wanted to get his face back in the press.

[ramAnag]

Well he was speaking to the pro Europe "Open Britain" group in the City and so he was to a large extent preaching to the converted: leastwise I dont suppose his speech changed anyone's mind who was there!

I have mixed feelings on this sort of thing. is it a positive contribution to the process or is it just another political has been trying to revive his public image (and indeed revenue stream) by being vaguely controvsial? if it is simply a has been profiteering then I think it is not useful, whether you agree with what he said or not. Brexits is not an appropriate forum for trying to get back into the limelight. its a bit like Ratty re-emerging from his dank lair and saying something contrary just so we dont forget he is still around!

We may or may not be heading lemming like over the cliff: who knows, but we (as in the majority of those who bothered to vote, and not including me) decided to head for Dover and now parliament has ratified the decision - you might say under duress - so what use would another vote be? You might say the same thing after every vote that has ever taken place - oooh lets do it again until we get the answer I want. If the Miss World competition had not fallen foul of political rectitude, then would we keep calling for a revote if our favoured girl did not win?

If we did go down the revote / check if you still want it vote after agreeing exit terms, how is that going to work? A change of heart would mean a colossal waste of time and money had occurred. The climb down would be nothing short of a national humiliation. Who is to say that the EU would even let us back in if we "changed our collective minds" after having negotiated an exit. If they did, how onerous would those remain/come back terms be, what might become of our special rebate? Would the revised "remain terms" then need another ratification vote? it could go on for ever.

I voted remain but with a divided mind. When we voted out I have accepted that view and embrace it, for good or evil. We cannot go on second guessing ourselves and prevaricating or we will still be in this no mans land ten years later with neither the espoused benefits of leaving nor those of staying actually being realised.

So in conclusion - I think Blair's tirade was not useful or constructive. he just wanted to get his face back in the press.

Although I disagree with your conclusion I genuinely take your points RR. As I've said before, I have reservations about the electorate being capable of making decisions on matters of such complexity in a second more detailed referendum, but we really have, imo, reached the point where steps are being taken/recommended that transcend even what many Brexiteers voted for. The warning signs are all there, someone has to make the 'wake up' call before it's too late and if that's Blair then so be it.

[AdiSalisbury]

Its a shame the EU couldn't stop Blair sanctioning the destabilisation of the middle east and the loss of so many innocent lives, whether they were innocent civilians caught up in the crossfire, or soldiers fighting a war based on one massive lie. His track record shows him as an egoist, I can't digest a single word he says without having grave doubts to the credibility of his information or the biased twist he perpetuates.

[roger_ramjet]

Mangara: we all know that the ignorant masses should never have been allowed to take part in such a portentous decision (and I count myself as ignorant too before anyone accuses me of being elitist) but someone made the promise so the scene was set then. In a perfect world the exit terms should have been negotiated before any vote was taken - but that is something that the EU would not permit as negotiations could only take place once Article 50 was triggered and our course set.

We were and are stuck between a rock and a hard place - and the more we struggle, the more it hurts

[ramAnag]

Of course he's an egoist Adi, he's a politician...it goes with the territory. Don't tell me you don't think the same about Gove, Johnson and Farage. Doesn't mean he's always wrong though. Paul Nuttall actually said something I agree with today...about VAT on fuel but I still think he's a totally dishonest and egotistical halfwit the vast majority of the time.

Roger...if we don't 'struggle' - or at least question, isn't there a danger that we just compound one error with another, all in the misplaced name of democracy?

[roger_ramjet]

Of course he's an egoist Adi, he's a politician...it goes with the territory. Don't tell me you don't think the same about Gove, Johnson and Farage. Doesn't mean he's always wrong though. Paul Nuttall actually said something I agree with today...about VAT on fuel but I still think he's a totally dishonest and egotistical halfwit the vast majority of the time.

Roger...if we don't 'struggle' - or at least question, isn't there a danger that we just compound one error with another, all in the misplaced name of democracy?

Its very easy for someone in Nuttall's position to pledge to scrap this tax or the other just for publicity. Dont forget it wasnt long ago he was pledging to scrap VAT on fish and chips and now its the 5% add on on domestic gas n electric. He can pledge to scrap income tax if he wants - he is unlikely ever to get into a position to have the bluff called.

Problem is that what the Lord giveth, the Lord has to take away. Sure save people 50-100 quid VAT a year on their fuel bills but in order to fund it he will then add 200 onto petrol or beer or fags. Its all a game. All politicians play it, the "I will increase public spending, reduce taxes and keep the national debt level" b/s which is patently impractical - its just that non parties such as UKIP can play with impugnity

[ramAnag]

Its very easy for someone in Nuttall's position to pledge to scrap this tax or the other just for publicity. Dont forget it wasnt long ago he was pledging to scrap VAT on fish and chips and now its the 5% add on on domestic gas n electric. He can pledge to scrap income tax if he wants - he is unlikely ever to get into a position to have the bluff called.

Problem is that what the Lord giveth, the Lord has to take away. Sure save people 50-100 quid VAT a year on their fuel bills but in order to fund it he will then add 200 onto petrol or beer or fags. Its all a game. All politicians play it, the "I will increase public spending, reduce taxes and keep the national debt level" b/s which is patently impractical - its just that non parties such as UKIP can play with impugnity

Please don't think I would ever defend Nuttall. I think he's a nasty little man representing an equally nasty and opportunist little party. My point was that it's what people say that matters not necessarily who is saying it. Sincerely hope you're 100% right abut him never being in a position to offer meaningful political comment but bad things tend to come in threes...Brexit...Trump...Nuttall .

[roger_ramjet]

Please don't think I would ever defend Nuttall. I think he's a nasty little man representing an equally nasty and opportunist little party. My point was that it's what people say that matters not necessarily who is saying it. Sincerely hope you're 100% right abut him never being in a position to offer meaningful political comment but bad things tend to come in threes...Brexit...Trump...Nuttall .

He did however make exceedingly good Mintoes

[macstheman]

As a Remainer who has been willing to give full support to the outcome of the vote, now that Mr Gob****e has spoken I hereby join the ranks of a committed Brexiteer on the basis that anything he says is not to be trusted!! To think I voted for him!! Forever ashamed!!

[ramAnag]

As a Remainer who has been willing to give full support to the outcome of the vote, now that Mr Gob****e has spoken I hereby join the ranks of a committed Brexiteer on the basis that anything he says is not to be trusted!! To think I voted for him!! Forever ashamed!!

Harsh mac. I know he got it horribly wrong on Iraq but during his first few years he was, imo, the best PM in my lifetime. As a politician I've come to expect that 90% of the time, if their lips are moving they're lying, but on this occasion I think he made a huge amount of sense.