OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Fair point about Cameron AF...didn't make much difference to the victims though.
Take your point RR, mine is...okay, you're right, it may not lessen Blair's 'guilt', but I do wonder why he alone is accused of 'war crimes'.

[roger_ramjet]

Fair point about Cameron AF...didn't make much difference to the victims though.
Take your point RR, mine is...okay, you're right, it may not lessen Blair's 'guilt', but I do wonder why he alone is accused of 'war crimes'.

I dont think "he alone" stands accused. Thatcher I recall has been villified as a war criminal in certain quarters over the Belgrano incident

http://belgranoinquiry.com/

I dont think Bomber Harris has exactly escaped criticism in that direction either but his actions, which I assume you specifically refer to the Dresden firestorms, were taken after 5 years of war during which similar carpet bombing attacks were levelled on London, Coventry, Liverpool etc etc as well as Hamburg and Berlin. The success (or excess) of this attack was over the top but set in the context of a world war that had lasted 5 years at that point I dont think it alone was a war crime. After all the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed many more than the 25,000 in Dresden (not that I am defending it).

Finally Blair's guilt or otherwise is still fresh in everyone's minds and has never been fully exposed: hence its greater profile

[ramAnag]

I dont think "he alone" stands accused. Thatcher I recall has been villified as a war criminal in certain quarters over the Belgrano incident

http://belgranoinquiry.com/

I dont think Bomber Harris has exactly escaped criticism in that direction either but his actions, which I assume you specifically refer to the Dresden firestorms, were taken after 5 years of war during which similar carpet bombing attacks were levelled on London, Coventry, Liverpool etc etc as well as Hamburg and Berlin. The success (or excess) of this attack was over the top but set in the context of a world war that had lasted 5 years at that point I dont think it alone was a war crime. After all the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed many more than the 25,000 in Dresden (not that I am defending it).

Finally Blair's guilt or otherwise is still fresh in everyone's minds and has never been fully exposed: hence its greater profile

You're right again...none of them have 'escaped criticism' but none of them have had quite the same level of accusation thrown at them and Thatcher was actually afforded a state funeral - or something very similar - about as far from being accused of 'war crimes' as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with the criticism of Blair's actions over Iraq but I continue to wonder why he's singled out and also about the actual term 'war criminal' which I would have thought was more associated with committing or sanctioning wrongdoings during the time of war rather than misguidedly involving one's country in a war. Ironically I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a war criminal in every sense of the word.

[Ram59]

I would also question Bliar's motives, it seems to me, everything he does is about him. Have you ever known a Prime Minister feather his cap like him? From the loans building his property empire, sucking up to the the bankers and other leading businesses. Always on freebie holidays to exotic locations. Don't you think he was thinking about life after being the PM, and wanting to appear to be the USA 's best friend? He is extremely popular in the USA and spends all his time elsewhere in the world 'advising' others. Don't you think that his latest intervention is to boost his image in the rest of the eu?

[roger_ramjet]

You're right again...none of them have 'escaped criticism' but none of them have had quite the same level of accusation thrown at them and Thatcher was actually afforded a state funeral - or something very similar - about as far from being accused of 'war crimes' as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with the criticism of Blair's actions over Iraq but I continue to wonder why he's singled out and also about the actual term 'war criminal' which I would have thought was more associated with committing or sanctioning wrongdoings during the time of war rather than misguidedly involving one's country in a war. Ironically I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a war criminal in every sense of the word.

I think its only you that is singling him out!! I only referenced him in the context of the Anti Brexit campaigning and a possible reason that I had heard put forward for his view. Apart from the usual self agrandissement.

As to the use of the term "war criminal" then I guess you must take that up with the Kuala Lumpur war crimes tribunal who found him guilty of being a war criminal in 2011.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-cri...guilty/5478367

having said that, Malaysia's record on human rights is scarcely spotless - just ask Kim Jong-Nam or Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak about his use of the Sedition Act

[roger_ramjet]

You're right again...none of them have 'escaped criticism' but none of them have had quite the same level of accusation thrown at them and Thatcher was actually afforded a state funeral - or something very similar - about as far from being accused of 'war crimes' as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with the criticism of Blair's actions over Iraq but I continue to wonder why he's singled out and also about the actual term 'war criminal' which I would have thought was more associated with committing or sanctioning wrongdoings during the time of war rather than misguidedly involving one's country in a war. Ironically I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a war criminal in every sense of the word.

I think its only you that is singling him out!! I only referenced him in the context of the Anti Brexit campaigning and a possible reason that I had heard put forward for his view. Apart from the usual self agrandissement.

As to the use of the term "war criminal" then I guess you must take that up with the Kuala Lumpur war crimes tribunal who found him guilty of being a war criminal in 2011.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-cri...guilty/5478367

having said that, Malaysia's record on human rights is scarcely spotless - just ask Kim Jong-Nam or Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak about his use of the Sedition Act

[ramAnag]

Hardly think it's only me Rog...I don't like the man and what he has become but I'm not part of the 'arrest him for war crimes brigade' and I find it disappointing that a politician who was originally, imo, like a breath of fresh air should have succumbed to greed and ego in the way he appears to have.

As regards the motives behind his anti Brexit speech, Ram...I appreciate where you're coming from but I still feel it was the best and most persuasive speech on the subject that I've heard. Whether he was the right person to make it is another matter.

[Trickytreesreds]

Fine lines and all that and I do not seek to make a party political point at all, but isn't it likely that Cameron (Syrian bombing), Thatcher (Falklands esp. General Belgrano) and even Bomber Harris (Dresden) were just as guilty of 'war crimes'?

disagree with two there Ramanag. We was at war and in fact the victim of aggression.
1. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement, to trap the British carriers. She was tracked by a UK sub (Conqueror), who couldn't guarantee keeping her in observation. The admirals called, as the North had the aircraft carrier battle fleet baring down on them. What do you do? They was at sea, looking to spring a trap. So inside or out, it was smash it or suffer the consequences. Good call.
2. Harris was in charge of bomber command. His job was to shorten the war and save allied lives. Dresden was a sad target, but in war you have no chance of being sentimental. Dresden in the 20th century was a major communications hub and manufacturing centre with 127 factories and major workshops and was designated by the German Military as a defensive strong point, with which to hinder the Soviet advance. Official figures have the death toll at 25 000, despite the Nazi's screaming half a million died.
Funny how many civilians died under the jack boot, but lets blame bomber Harris.

[ramAnag]

disagree with two there Ramanag. We was at war and in fact the victim of aggression.
1. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement, to trap the British carriers. She was tracked by a UK sub (Conqueror), who couldn't guarantee keeping her in observation. The admirals called, as the North had the aircraft carrier battle fleet baring down on them. What do you do? They was at sea, looking to spring a trap. So inside or out, it was smash it or suffer the consequences. Good call.
2. Harris was in charge of bomber command. His job was to shorten the war and save allied lives. Dresden was a sad target, but in war you have no chance of being sentimental. Dresden in the 20th century was a major communications hub and manufacturing centre with 127 factories and major workshops and was designated by the German Military as a defensive strong point, with which to hinder the Soviet advance. Official figures have the death toll at 25 000, despite the Nazi's screaming half a million died.
Funny how many civilians died under the jack boot, but lets blame bomber Harris.

I don't know all the facts Tricky. Many experts have suggested that the General Belgrano was outside the exclusion zone and moving further away at the time Thatcher authorised the attack. Likewise, other experts have suggested that up to 135,000 died in the fire bombing of Dresden which also seemed unnecessary because the Germans were on the verge of surrender. It has also been suggested that Dresden was a cultural city full of museums and, at the time, refugees fleeing from the Russians in the east...but maybe you know best.

[Ram59]

I wonder if Bliar would have been so eager to back Bush unconditionally and commit our forces, if he knew that his son would have been in the front line, as well as other people's sons and daughters.