OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

In which case your 'instinct' would appear to have changed quite dramatically since you voted 'Remain', Andy.
I'm certainly 'bothered' whether it's 'millions, billions or trillions' and like you, I now want a 'fair deal' but like it or not we have, all in the name of Cameron trying to unite his Party, made significant enemies amongst our former allies and there is a high price to pay.

I don't think so R. My belief, despite voting Remain, was and still is that UK was a means by which the EU kept its head above water, that in purely mathematical terms we dobbed in more than our fair share. In moral/socialist terms, maybe that was right and proper, give or take the odd zillion we contributed to the EU having two headquarters, etc. My flippant comment about the order of magnitude was just that, of course I'm bothered but in any event we should stand our ground. I honestly wish I was part of it actually.

No argument that it was Mr Macaroon that dropped the ******* in the first place, what WAS he thinking? Its the second worst political faux pas of recent times, the biggest IMO being when some clever dick decided to stick Jeremy Corbyn on the Labour leadership ballot.

[ramAnag]

I do find it odd, Andy, that you and Roger both voted 'Remain', albeit slightly reluctantly, and have now become such vociferous supporters of the referendum result even though there can be no doubt that it was a result made possible by Cameron's complacency and arrived at by a minority of the electorate.
I understand completely your initial half hearted support for the EU and share it to a large extent. There is a great deal wrong with the EU imo and particularly the lack of democracy and levels of bureaucracy. Having said that I would far rather be in it than feel increasingly isolated as I think has happened since that fateful night last June.
I don't know what happens next Rog. Mrs. May has, in her infinite wisdom, called an election and gone out of her way to make it a single issue election. Little is being said about crucial domestic issues and the Tory agenda seems to be...'who do you trust more to handle Brexit negotiations...our head girl or that scruffy, chaotic Jeremy chap'?
Sadly I fear this will allow the Tories to get away with all sorts of things as far as continued cuts etc are concerned. It is also, I think, a second example of another Tory PM playing with the country's future in order to unite her party and strengthen her own position, but if things do go awry for the Tories...what then? She/they have called this election over Brexit...should they lose or have a reduced majority (which I think is unlikely) possibly because people are waking up to the self inflicted damage being done - should it be regarded as a 'second referendum'? Possibly only the real fear of Corbyn as PM and Abbot as Home Secretary is what is stopping that from happening and that, for me, is a great concern. We seem only to be able to vote - for the second time in under a year - for the lesser of two evils.

[macstheman]

What the EU are trying to do is in some way get us to change our minds over Brexit by using various scare tactics, which may or may not be based on true facts!! Who knows?? As mere mortals (pawns) in the battle still going on over the Referendum result who are we to know who is telling the truth (or the biggest lies!!) and so the age old policy of scare tactics is being used by both sides!! Now, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) what the EU are forgetting is that this is an island race seperated from the rest of Europe by a great dollop of cold water!! What all island races have in common is a dose of 'We've survived tide and flood and countless invasions and are still here to tell the tale'. What does that result in?? WE ARE BLOODY AWKWARD AND IF YOU TRY TO TELL US WHAT TO DO OR USE SCARE TACTICS our response is 'been there done that so f***k off'. If Mr Juncker keeps sticking his oar in he might regret it!! I voted to remain, then said I'll do my little bit to make it work on the glass half full principle, now the scaremongering from the remainers and the EU just makes me say 'get stuffed we'll show you whether or not we can make it work!!'
After all that's what island races do!! Anyway I make it a principle to be a bloody awkward sod!!

[Ram59]

I'm not letting the 'spin' get in the way at all and I'll happily pocket the difference if you think the difference between £100m and €100m is insignificant despite Brexit doing it's best to make it so.
I am simply asking those who voted Brexit - you didn't Andy as I recall - if they really voted to leave the single market, leave the customs union and pay something between €60-100m for the privilege. I understand that the EU isn't some sort of magic panacea and that some people were fed up about immigration but...is this mess really what you wanted because it all seems a bloody long way from making the country and the NHS better off as we were told last June?

I think you need to apply a bit of common sense here, we're hearing these leaked threats of having to pay 100bn, but where does this figure come from? Our net contribution each year is around 6bn, so that means we're committed to around 16 years of spending plans, I don't think so. If they keep this up, then it's going to be a hard brexit.

In terms of trade, what does a hard brexit mean? It means that our companies will have to pay a tariff, as will the eu companies exporting to us. As we import 30% more than we export, that means our government will collect 30% more tariffs than our companies pay and without eu restrictions, they will be able to subsidise these companies for the tariffs paid. As our goods are already cheaper, thanks to the devalued pound, our goods will not be affected as much as the German imports valued by the expensive euro plus tariffs.

Don't you feel that because of the bully boy tactics coming out of Brussels, that you'll be glad to get away from their clutches?

[swaledale]

I think you need to apply a bit of common sense here, we're hearing these leaked threats of having to pay 100bn, but where does this figure come from? Our net contribution each year is around 6bn, so that means we're committed to around 16 years of spending plans, I don't think so. If they keep this up, then it's going to be a hard brexit.

In terms of trade, what does a hard brexit mean? It means that our companies will have to pay a tariff, as will the eu companies exporting to us. As we import 30% more than we export, that means our government will collect 30% more tariffs than our companies pay and without eu restrictions, they will be able to subsidise these companies for the tariffs paid. As our goods are already cheaper, thanks to the devalued pound, our goods will not be affected as much as the German imports valued by the expensive euro plus tariffs.

Don't you feel that because of the bully boy tactics coming out of Brussels, that you'll be glad to get away from their clutches?

I'm not going to return to the debate on whether we should stay or go, the deed is done all that remains is what deal we get and believe me that will have a significant impact on most people and if its a hard brexit, the negative impact will on many of those who voted brexit!

On the subject of a hard brexit, there is some tosh thrown around, yes we import more than we export, but people are overlooking one very simple thing, our trade is with 27 countries, the Eu's is with us, they have the 27 in the EU plus countries outside the EU to export to, its clear that it will be a lot easier for the EU to replace trade lost with the Uk than it is going to be for the Uk to replace trade lost with the EU.

BUT, that isn't the most significant matter - many companies in technology, finance and other services, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, aerospace and car manufacturing that are based in the UK, do so because it gives them access to the single market and the EU supply chain, if we have a hard brexit, that is going to be a real issue and already many companies are making plans which will see them establish bases or headquarters in an EU country and outside the UK - what that will mean is less export earnings, less tax, less jobs and a knock on to associated industries with more job losses etc. Economically a hard brexit could be a devastating blow to the UK economy and whats more one that is self inflicted.

[roger_ramjet]

Indeed Swale - the Irish must be rubbing their hands in glee. In the EU, almost in the UK, almost speak English, two international tax free zones reasonable infrastructure....

[swaledale]

I've made more trips to Ireland these past 6 months than in my entire life and I'm rubbing my hands i can tell you, Brexit is very good for business, such that all going well i shall be able to retire early and wont give a flying ****, but I do wonder where it will all end up - I suspect in some kind of fudge and of course these things being cyclical the EU could well implode and whilst there are those who may welcome that, I would be very careful what one wishes for!

[Andy_Faber]

I do find it odd, Andy, that you and Roger both voted 'Remain', albeit slightly reluctantly, and have now become such vociferous supporters of the referendum result

No, not a supporter of the result, merely not a denier (denyer?). I don't agree with 'hard brexit' but I agree even less with those who are in denial about the result, try to argue its validity, or soothsay every bit of negative gossip into hard fact. I want the people that we 'trust' to do such things for us to get the very best deal they can, by whatever legal means are possible. And if by some miracle its Jeremy Corbyn who has to lead the charge, he'll 100% get my support, seriously. I might even max out his chances by abducting Diane abbott for the duration of the negotiations

Hope that clarifies

[swaledale]

Thats going to be hard, finding someone we can trust to get the best deal, not sure either May or Corbyn can do that!

[macstheman]

Get Boris in , he'll so befuddle them that not only will we get what we want but they'll chuck in the Eiffel Tower just to get rid of us!!