OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

Membership of the EU has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration from outside the EU.

I fear this is you at your naive best Swale. In that all of our domestic laws have been influenced by EU membership requirements for over 40 years, you cannot possibly say that with any conviction.

I would suggest that EU immigration has been primarily responsible for the control and even reduction in non EEA immigration, so those who dislike the Asian etc migration of the 50s and 60s onwards should be grateful for the fact that Eastern European immigration via EU membership has "controlled the flood".

The prioritisation of EEA migrants over and above non EEA ones as part of a wider protectionism ("putting our own first", in EU terms) will have controlled what otherwise would have had to have been been a massive Asian immigration to satisfy our employment needs.

A strange argument but those who objected to immigration on racial grounds may have had a lot to thank the EU for. Now that is what I call irony!

[swaledale]

I fear this is you at your naive best Swale. In that all of our domestic laws have been influenced by EU membership requirements for over 40 years, you cannot possibly say that with any conviction.

I would suggest that EU immigration has been primarily responsible for the control and even reduction in non EEA immigration, so those who dislike the Asian etc migration of the 50s and 60s onwards should be grateful for the fact that Eastern European immigration via EU membership has "controlled the flood".

The prioritisation of EEA migrants over and above non EEA ones as part of a wider protectionism ("putting our own first", in EU terms) will have controlled what otherwise would have had to have been been a massive Asian immigration to satisfy our employment needs.

A strange argument but those who objected to immigration on racial grounds may have had a lot to thank the EU for. Now that is what I call irony!

Oh Rog thats you at your obtuse best, look at a situation and extrapolate a hypothesis which is so full of caveats that its hardly worth saying in the first place.

What evidence do you have that there would not have been controls on non EU immigration if we had not been in the EU? Yes there may well have been immigration to meet employment needs, but thats different from free movement of people, in facts it is most likely what will be the case after Brexit - the immigration figures post Brexit will be interesting!

But thats not the point I was making as you well know! ramAnag was postulating about immigration with respect to asian/afro caribbeans in cities, in response to a discussion about EU migration, Brexit is after all the subject of this thread and its the Eu free movment of people that the Brexit camp get steamed up about as if the EU was responsible for Uk immigration policy in the 50's and 60's, which clearly it wasn't.

I was merely trying to get some clarify into the debate but with you hovering in the wings to toss in some obscurity its kind of difficult.

Oh and this comment that all our domestic laws have been influenced by EU membership is totally untrue! Many l was had no relation to the EU And where laws have been agreed at an EU level, I'd be interested to learn where you think we might have gone down a different path or how you explain UK agendas that were adopted by the EU or do you think the UK had no influence whatsoever?

Either your naive or your as usual taking a devils advocate approach,

[Andy_Faber]

It hurts me to say it...but it is a problem Swale. Furthermore, one of the problems is that it is never acknowledged as a problem by those whose politically correct instincts say otherwise. You, I imagine, and I have avoided this issue by having the wit and subsequently the relative affluence to escape the 'problem' on a day to day level but if you'd been left behind on the back streets of any inner city where your colour and heritage now place you in the minority you might think differently. To a large extent this was what, misguidedly, led to the Brexit 'victory' a year ago imo. I speak as someone who recognises the value of immigration, is wholly opposed to racism and has given court evidence against the policing of an anti NF rally but to deny that there are certain problems associated with how immigration has been managed is, I believe, a mistake.

Thank you R, that pretty much sums up my position too and an honest, non-PC, country-wide debate would move 'us' on no end

[ramAnag]

But your not addressing what Brexit was supposed to address which was EU migration, it won't address non EU migration, which is a totally different matter, even though to some extent that may have clouded the thinking of those who voted for Brexit, although if it did influence their vote then clearly there is an issue over people actually understanding reality.

Membership of the EU has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration from outside the EU.

Sorry, had to be elsewhere. I know I'm not addressing what Brexit was supposed to be about and I know Brexit won't address non EU migration but I don't believe everyone did. I believe there was a 'backlash' from people who often don't even vote to make their voices heard over concerns regarding immigration. Farage knew that and it makes the current impact of Brexit even more frustrating from my point of view.
You and I are relatively privileged living in the comfortable and slightly elitist Derbyshire Dales, but go to the back streets of Bradford, Burnley, Rotherham, Oldham, Rochdale etc...even Derby and you'll find a less comfortable reality. I hardly recognise the Lancashire mill town I grew up in and I don't blame immigrants for that but the management of such immigration has, imo, led to the development of, for want of a better expression, 'ghettos' where the 'English' white lower working class or underclass are in the minority. This has provoked resentment and also a sort of 'protectionism' amongst some of the estates - think Mackworth and parts of Chadd - which simply isn't healthy. In short I am not blaming immigrants for creating this problem but there are issues with levels/management of immigration and to that extent Andy has a point.

[roger_ramjet]

Oh Rog thats you at your obtuse best, look at a situation and extrapolate a hypothesis which is so full of caveats that its hardly worth saying in the first place.

What evidence do you have that there would not have been controls on non EU immigration if we had not been in the EU? Yes there may well have been immigration to meet employment needs, but thats different from free movement of people, in facts it is most likely what will be the case after Brexit - the immigration figures post Brexit will be interesting!

But thats not the point I was making as you well know! ramAnag was postulating about immigration with respect to asian/afro caribbeans in cities, in response to a discussion about EU migration, Brexit is after all the subject of this thread and its the Eu free movment of people that the Brexit camp get steamed up about as if the EU was responsible for Uk immigration policy in the 50's and 60's, which clearly it wasn't.

I was merely trying to get some clarify into the debate but with you hovering in the wings to toss in some obscurity its kind of difficult.

Oh and this comment that all our domestic laws have been influenced by EU membership is totally untrue! Many l was had no relation to the EU And where laws have been agreed at an EU level, I'd be interested to learn where you think we might have gone down a different path or how you explain UK agendas that were adopted by the EU or do you think the UK had no influence whatsoever?

Either your naive or your as usual taking a devils advocate approach,

😈😈😈😈😈😈

[swaledale]

Sorry, had to be elsewhere. I know I'm not addressing what Brexit was supposed to be about and I know Brexit won't address non EU migration but I don't believe everyone did. I believe there was a 'backlash' from people who often don't even vote to make their voices heard over concerns regarding immigration. Farage knew that and it makes the current impact of Brexit even more frustrating from my point of view.
You and I are relatively privileged living in the comfortable and slightly elitist Derbyshire Dales, but go to the back streets of Bradford, Burnley, Rotherham, Oldham, Rochdale etc...even Derby and you'll find a less comfortable reality. I hardly recognise the Lancashire mill town I grew up in and I don't blame immigrants for that but the management of such immigration has, imo, led to the development of, for want of a better expression, 'ghettos' where the 'English' white lower working class or underclass are in the minority. This has provoked resentment and also a sort of 'protectionism' amongst some of the estates - think Mackworth and parts of Chadd - which simply isn't healthy. In short I am not blaming immigrants for creating this problem but there are issues with levels/management of immigration and to that extent Andy has a point.

I might live in the Derbyshire dales and its stifling, small town atmosphere, but i work all over the place, where i currently have a contract has a workforce that is 60 40 ethnic to white british, so I am fully aware of the impact that previous immigration policy has had on the make up of some areas of the UK, although it has ever been the case that immigrants have come in and generally occupied the lower economic status of society and thus gravitate to the cheaper ares, it has also evr been the case that a proportion of the original population resents the fac that these immigrants are prepared to work hard to better themselves.

And whilst I agree with your point that immigration was a stick to beat those economically disadvantaged on the Brexit vote, in reality Brexit won't achieve what is being proposed. So whilst there is a connection and causal link in terms of the the Brexit debate, its the free movement of people from the EU that Andy in particular was saying was a problem and then extending that to say there is no benefit or that the numbers need to be reduced, without actually saying what the problem is and why reduction would be a good thing.

If there is going to be a sensible debate about immigration, then there needs to be clarity as to what people want and what the possible negative effects of what they want will be and to what level they are prepared to accept those negative effects.

[swaledale]

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To add some facts to this debate here are the migration stats for 2016, I'm sure Rog will look at these with interest!

And I'd say my 50% of EU returning is not a million miles away from reality!



Latest Migration Statistics, Year Ending December 2016


All Citizenships British Non-British EU Non-EU
Immigration 588,000 74,000 514,000 250,000 264,000

Emigration 339,000 134,000 206,000 117,000 88,000

Net Migration 248,000 -60,000 308,000 133,000 175,000

[ramAnag]

I might live in the Derbyshire dales and its stifling, small town atmosphere, but i work all over the place, where i currently have a contract has a workforce that is 60 40 ethnic to white british, so I am fully aware of the impact that previous immigration policy has had on the make up of some areas of the UK, although it has ever been the case that immigrants have come in and generally occupied the lower economic status of society and thus gravitate to the cheaper ares, it has also evr been the case that a proportion of the original population resents the fac that these immigrants are prepared to work hard to better themselves.

And whilst I agree with your point that immigration was a stick to beat those economically disadvantaged on the Brexit vote, in reality Brexit won't achieve what is being proposed. So whilst there is a connection and causal link in terms of the the Brexit debate, its the free movement of people from the EU that Andy in particular was saying was a problem and then extending that to say there is no benefit or that the numbers need to be reduced, without actually saying what the problem is and why reduction would be a good thing.

If there is going to be a sensible debate about immigration, then there needs to be clarity as to what people want and what the possible negative effects of what they want will be and to what level they are prepared to accept those negative effects.

I don't think the Derbyshire Dales has a 'stifling small town atmosphere'. It's more than a little parochial for sure but we both live there through choice so presumably, like me, you can't find it that bad.
I too have a professional awareness of other areas and still see what I see when I go back to my 'roots' and my old home town now seems to have more burkas than hair nets and head scarves.
That's no sort of a problem for me and we are actually largely in agreement, I think, regarding our view of the world...suspect we both loath racism, intolerance and bigotry etc.
I have just come to believe that we have to leave the comfort of our 'ivory towers' and realise that living as part of an indigenous minority whether that be amongst Pakistanis or Poles is not without its complications. I totally agree that immigration has a great many benefits but it does have some downsides and a grown up honest debate on the issue is overdue. If that exposes the racists for what they are so much the better but it may also identify those who are happy with the current situation to be naive idealists.

[swaledale]

I don't think the Derbyshire Dales has a 'stifling small town atmosphere'. It's more than a little parochial for sure but we both live there through choice so presumably, like me, you can't find it that bad.
I too have a professional awareness of other areas and still see what I see when I go back to my 'roots' and my old home town now seems to have more burkas than hair nets and head scarves.
That's no sort of a problem for me and we are actually largely in agreement, I think, regarding our view of the world...suspect we both loath racism, intolerance and bigotry etc.
I have just come to believe that we have to leave the comfort of our 'ivory towers' and realise that living as part of an indigenous minority whether that be amongst Pakistanis or Poles is not without its complications. I totally agree that immigration has a great many benefits but it does have some downsides and a grown up honest debate on the issue is overdue. If that exposes the racists for what they are so much the better but it may also identify those who are happy with the current situation to be naive idealists.

I came to live here through work and its ceased to be relevant on that score. I think you will find that the attitude to living amongst immigrants depends upon a number of factors, my brother lives in London and his street is a mix of nationalities as are his friends. I have a wide range of nationalities as friends and would have no issue living amongst them, would i want to live in the rundown streets of an inner city area? No, but then I wouldn't have wanted to live there when the population was predominantly white!

I'm not sure who is living in ivory towers, well many Tories in the Sires obviously, but certainly not me I interact with immigrants on a daily basis, both Eu and non EU.

I realise my stats are hard to intepret, but basically more non EU net migration then eu net migration and around the emmigration of EU migrants is approx half the immigration.

[Ram59]

There needs to be a balance of immigration though and I fear we're going over edge. I'm in Italy ATM, I love the Italian way of life, the food the drink, the pavement cafes, etc. They are not full of restaurants from other nationalities like ours are. I love going to Greece and France and will go to India and other places in the future, not just for the sights, but to enjoy the cultures. Soon there will be no English culture for people to come and experience.