OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Never thought you were 'having a go' Tricky. Doesn't really matter if you are but as far as I'm concerned we just disagree.

I'm not really one who believes in 'wait and see' especially when there seems to be an ever increasinging belief that we're making a dreadful mistake.
As I've said many times before, I'm not a fan of everything to do with the EU but I do believe we're better in than out. This seems to be a view shared by many business leaders who I'm sure know more than you and I.
I agree that the EU has changed out of all recognition from what was 'on offer' in 1974 but I honestly struggle to think of any of my 'rights' that have been overturned as a result of our membership.

I think the mistake we are making at the moment is using politicians to do our negotiating for us. Regretably all the skilled commercial types, those same business leaders, pinned their colours to the remain mast, and therefore can't be seen to be offering their considerable skills to be getting a good deal for the UK (and maybe the politicians wouldn't want them on board anyway).

But I know that 'business' as individual entities won't just sit round and wait for the deal to be done. Many forward-thinking businesses had thoroughly thought through plans for leave and remain, and continue to 'work' them to their own ends (quite rightly)

[ramAnag]

Funnily enough i too have been visiting our northern friends or in my case family, though not with Rog!

Anyway Anag, I realised why I resolved to stop posting on this thread. What with peoples opinions based on the tripe shovelled out by rags such as the mail, Express and Sun, the inability to recognise and understand economics (despite some being right wing free marketeers! But then i guess a free market is fine until its effects seem to be negative! Plus being told that researched facts are my opinion and that my political allegiance (I don't actually have one other than to recognise that untramelled capitalism is fine if your rich, government both local and national provides services which we all require and that private business sups at the table of government largess more than it cares to admit! Oh and that immigration is not THE problem, but being used as a scapegoat.

Anyway I'm off back to the football threads as a discussion with people who don't bother to check facts does not interest me.

Welcome back anyway Swale. I think I might be the only person who has time for both the views of you and Andy...you aren't that far apart and do both speak more sense than many imo. I agree that immigration is not THE problem but it is part of the issue and that cannot be ignored. I also think that you have a better grasp of economics than many, including me, but unfortunately the referendum decision was made by people that read - and believe - the newspapers you rightly describe as 'rags' and that is very much THE problem.

Agree too with Andy that there is a problem with negotiations being conducted by politicians. The biggest problem, imo, is the original decision which we just seem to be compounding, but just as politicians are very rarely the most knowledgeable about such ***** areas as health, education, housing, transport, defence, industry so they are, compared with real business people, p**s poor negotiators too.

A bit like at the end of last season someone commented that there really wasn't a single member of the first team squad that we couldn't do without...can you name a single member of the current cabinet that you value as either a human being or a professional expert/negotiator? I can't.

[swaledale]

I think the mistake we are making at the moment is using politicians to do our negotiating for us. Regretably all the skilled commercial types, those same business leaders, pinned their colours to the remain mast, and therefore can't be seen to be offering their considerable skills to be getting a good deal for the UK (and maybe the politicians wouldn't want them on board anyway).

But I know that 'business' as individual entities won't just sit round and wait for the deal to be done. Many forward-thinking businesses had thoroughly thought through plans for leave and remain, and continue to 'work' them to their own ends (quite rightly)

Indeed and the up side of Brexit for me is that I have never been so busy,as companies plan their post Brexit strategy it will fund a more comfortable retirement than I anticipated, Trebles all round! Unfortunately it is unlikely to improve the lot of those folk in Clacton Boston, Middesboro etc who voted for it but thats life!

[Trickytreesreds]

Never thought you were 'having a go' Tricky. Doesn't really matter if you are but as far as I'm concerned we just disagree.

I'm not really one who believes in 'wait and see' especially when there seems to be an ever increasinging belief that we're making a dreadful mistake.
As I've said many times before, I'm not a fan of everything to do with the EU but I do believe we're better in than out. This seems to be a view shared by many business leaders who I'm sure know more than you and I.
I agree that the EU has changed out of all recognition from what was 'on offer' in 1974 but I honestly struggle to think of any of my 'rights' that have been overturned as a result of our membership.

Apologies Ramanag, I don't think I stated my true meaning very well.

What has trade got to do with a superstate?
Why do you have to belong to a club that wants to rule you, to escape trade tariffs?
The no borders/one currency/one law system/one army are tantamount to a revolution.
Do you want this, or are happy to get sucked into this?

I personally am not, in fact I think it is very scary.

[ramAnag]

Apologies Ramanag, I don't think I stated my true meaning very well.

What has trade got to do with a superstate?
Why do you have to belong to a club that wants to rule you, to escape trade tariffs?
The no borders/one currency/one law system/one army are tantamount to a revolution.
Do you want this, or are happy to get sucked into this?

I personally am not, in fact I think it is very scary.

That's the difference Tricky...I don't feel ruled by Europe, the last time I looked we still had the £, I'm quite happy with the borders, there is no such thing as a European army and we still make most of our own laws. I just don't see this pernicious threat that scares you. I'll admit the world...or the West...has fallen victim to globalisation more than I'd like but there is still a world of difference between the countries of Europe and long may that be.

[Trickytreesreds]

That's the difference Tricky...I don't feel ruled by Europe, the last time I looked we still had the £, I'm quite happy with the borders, there is no such thing as a European army and we still make most of our own laws. I just don't see this pernicious threat that scares you. I'll admit the world...or the West...has fallen victim to globalisation more than I'd like but there is still a world of difference between the countries of Europe and long may that be.

Oh come on ramanag, there are loads of europhiles out there, saying that the euro will have to become central to all members. Google them all. The evidence is there.

As for the EU army, the horses mouth
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37359196

Just because it hasn't happened yet, does not mean it will not.

Think about where we have come from since 1974. Like sheep(no pun) we have been, along with others into ever closer union.
The Superstate.

The reality is, we'll be Utah or Florida

The cats out of the bag. The economic noose, is what is used to restrain dissent.
Either you want to be part of a USE or you don't.
I despair how folks don't look at the bigger picture.
The Eu army is happening.

[Trickytreesreds]

the last quotes on that article

Anti-EU MEPs lined up to criticise Mr Juncker's rallying cry:
UKIP leader Nigel Farage said it was "the usual recipe: more Europe, in this particular case, more military Europe''
Peter Lundgren of the anti-migrant Sweden Democrats said his country had always been neutral militarily. "We don't want to be forced into this type of military co-operation," he said
But Belgian MEP Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament's lead negotiator on Brexit, said the EU still offered the "cure" for "the cancer of nationalism"


Key words- cure for nationalism

[ramAnag]

Sorry Tricky...by coincidence I love Utah and Florida has a lot going for it in places too. I'm also quite patriotic over certain things but I've got no time at all for 'nationalism' so that's all alright with me.

The only cat that might be out of the bag is that we're all going to be a lot worse of if Brexit goes ahead. Still time to call a halt and not be led down the road to ruin by a mixture of Sun readers and complacency.

[Trickytreesreds]

Sorry Tricky...by coincidence I love Utah and Florida has a lot going for it in places too. I'm also quite patriotic over certain things but I've got no time at all for 'nationalism' so that's all alright with me.

The only cat that might be out of the bag is that we're all going to be a lot worse of if Brexit goes ahead. Still time to call a halt and not be led down the road to ruin by a mixture of Sun readers and complacency.

Well that's cleared something up at least.
Surrender of nationality is ok.

[ramAnag]

Well that's cleared something up at least.
Surrender of nationality is ok.

How do you reach that conclusion?
To me nationalism is patriotism taken to an extreme so that people feel their nation is actually 'superior'. I don't feel that. I'm proud of some aspects of my country...the Lions today, our contribution to the music scene, winning the Ashes, the Peak District, our recent Olympic performances, Snowdonia, the NHS...to name but a few. Except in a fairly shallow sporting context though, I don't feel or want/need to feel superior.
Having no time for 'nationalism' is not synonymous with the 'surrender of nationality', whatever that means.
Vive la difference!