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Thread: OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Akwesasne View Post
    We are still in Europe and will remain so until we sign clause 50, and then we still remain in for two more years. Plenty of time for a second referendum which seems likely and Brexiteers will melt away when they realise this time the implications of still wanting to come out.
    Really and you speak for me as a Britexiteer? It's still only guesswork what will happen anyway.
    I won't change my vote.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Akwesasne View Post
    We are still in Europe and will remain so until we sign clause 50, and then we still remain in for two more years. Plenty of time for a second referendum which seems likely and Brexiteers will melt away when they realise this time the implications of still wanting to come out.
    So what you're saying is, you're a federalist at heart
    You advocate, ever closer union- run by an undemocratic committee/ one law/one currency/one financial system/one army/no borders/in effect a closed shop?

    He's one for you Basie, it's right up your alley.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xvuHMgPq38

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    So what you're saying is, you're a federalist at heart
    You advocate, ever closer union- run by an undemocratic committee/ one law/one currency/one financial system/one army/no borders/in effect a closed shop?

    He's one for you Basie, it's right up your alley.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xvuHMgPq38
    Did we not fight a war in the not too distant past to stop exactly this?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryRam View Post
    Did we not fight a war in the not too distant past to stop exactly this?
    Yes Angry we did-

    Folks think this is a good idea? It's scary.

    USSR, Yugoslavia anyone?

  5. #45
    Don't think he said that at all Tricky...those are all you're assumptions. You can be pro 'Remain' but still be critical of the way the EU has developed.
    To put it in a football context, many on here have been critical of the way DCFC were run last season...doubtless you likewise at Forest...does that mean that support has to be withdrawn? No...we say our piece, aim for constructive change and continue to support.
    Anyway, what is so democratic about 17.5m deciding what the vast majority should do and being led into it by a PM who will have been chosen by a tiny percentage of the electorate on the back of a load of political bile and yobbery by a loudmouth who has never managed to get himself elected and has since resigned?

  6. #46
    The BoE statements today don't look good time to batten down the hatches, the next decade is going to be rough.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Don't think he said that at all Tricky...those are all you're assumptions. You can be pro 'Remain' but still be critical of the way the EU has developed.
    To put it in a football context, many on here have been critical of the way DCFC were run last season...doubtless you likewise at Forest...does that mean that support has to be withdrawn? No...we say our piece, aim for constructive change and continue to support.
    Anyway, what is so democratic about 17.5m deciding what the vast majority should do and being led into it by a PM who will have been chosen by a tiny percentage of the electorate on the back of a load of political bile and yobbery by a loudmouth who has never managed to get himself elected and has since resigned?
    1.Critical of the EU, yet change nothing. 70 attempts to do, 70 failures.
    2. democracy, runs on the majority deciding. 17.5 went one way, 16 went the other. That looks like a majority for me.
    Therefore democracy QED.
    By your analogy, we wouldn't ever have a general election result in this country. 72.5% turned out for the referendum. The highest in 25 years. How clear cut do you want it?
    3. That "LOUDMOUTH" you talk about has represented the UK in the European parliament with 26.6% of the national vote. A little party blowing the two big boys into submission. How? Because folks wanted someone with the balls to stand up to the EU. He has done so, from day one.
    What bile do you speak of? Standing up to political bullying(try Ireland Portugal Greece)/uncontrolled immigration/Eu laws/ sneaky treaties passed through?

    The thing you keep missing is down to one word DEMOCRACY-
    If you don't like what he says, then it's your prerogative not to and not to vote for him.
    Under the EU you wouldn't get that choice. Now you need to find a dark corner and have a lie down.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by triz View Post
    The BoE statements today don't look good time to batten down the hatches, the next decade is going to be rough.
    Yes Triz, doomsday is happening right now.
    http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...html?index=UKX

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    democracy, runs on the majority deciding. 17.5 went one way, 16 went the other. That looks like a majority for me.
    Therefore democracy QED.
    a couple of points, not sure who I'm agreeing/disagreeing with but hey ho

    Loving my musical references, there's a line in a Rush song 'If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice', and I think that sums up how those who didn't vote should be considered - they couldn't be arsed to vote so they are clearly prepared to go with the eventual decision.

    Also, as I was yet again listening to Radio 4 last night with my pipe cocoa and slippers in situ there was an interview with a Swiss about their vote of a few years ago to tighten immigration, won by 50.3% to 49.7%. When asked if there was a hoohaa from the losing side he said 'why would there be, the majority side prevails no matter how small the majority - we are used to this as we vote as a nation on around 10 -12 things every year, some close, some not so close'. Maybe UK need to hold MORE referendums to stop us getting so wound up about them

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    1.Critical of the EU, yet change nothing. 70 attempts to do, 70 failures.
    2. democracy, runs on the majority deciding. 17.5 went one way, 16 went the other. That looks like a majority for me.
    Therefore democracy QED.
    By your analogy, we wouldn't ever have a general election result in this country. 72.5% turned out for the referendum. The highest in 25 years. How clear cut do you want it?
    3. That "LOUDMOUTH" you talk about has represented the UK in the European parliament with 26.6% of the national vote. A little party blowing the two big boys into submission. How? Because folks wanted someone with the balls to stand up to the EU. He has done so, from day one.
    What bile do you speak of? Standing up to political bullying(try Ireland Portugal Greece)/uncontrolled immigration/Eu laws/ sneaky treaties passed through?

    The thing you keep missing is down to one word DEMOCRACY-
    If you don't like what he says, then it's your prerogative not to and not to vote for him.
    Under the EU you wouldn't get that choice. Now you need to find a dark corner and have a lie down.
    You can keep talking about 'Democracy' as much as you like Tricky but you can't tell me what is 'democratic' about an electorate of 40+ million being 'governed' by the decision of 17.5m in a two option situation.
    As I've said before, General Elections are entirely different...there will be three, four or more candidates (options) but in a two option choice it is not democratic for the wishes of an active minority to determine the future of a much greater majority and that is what is happening.
    I don't agree with everything about the EU by any means but I disagree a whole lot more with the prospect of being led into a self imposed recession by many - not all - of those who voted 'Leave' on the basis of objection to immigration and a load of lies written on the side of a bus.

    As for Farage...it's easy to be paid well to go and become a representative of something you just set out to destroy. Rather more difficult to bring about positive change. Thanks anyway Nigel...for the collapse in the value of the pound, the increase in hate crime and the likely break up of the U.K. What a legacy...just what we needed.

    Andy...a referendum might be useful for DCFC supporters to vote on who the next iPro statue should be...but as far as such complex issues as the EU are concerned, please let's leave it to the politicians we've already voted for and the 'experts' in future. Hopefully we can still avoid the trigger on the gun that's pointing at the other foot.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    Yes Triz, doomsday is happening right now.
    http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...html?index=UKX

    There is only one person mentioning doomsday, I simply said we're in for a rough decade based on the governor of the BoE's speech, and the strength of the pound which is at 1985 levels today. I'm sure you know better though tricky.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryRam View Post
    Did we not fight a war in the not too distant past to stop exactly this?
    No

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    , please let's leave it to the politicians we've already voted for and the 'experts' in future. Hopefully we can still avoid the trigger on the gun that's pointing at the other foot.
    ....although that's what we did, and the politicians decided something NO man in the street had said they wanted, to give us a referendum! If Brexit goes the way of the soothsayers, I think that one decision will prove to be the biggest dropped ******* ever

  14. #54
    Take your point Andy...but imo that was one politician (Cameron) taking leave of his senses in an effort to prevent the fragmentation of the Tory party. He, and others, then became utterly complacent in their handling of the 'Remain' campaign, but prior to that the vast majority of democratically elected MP's did not favour Brexit which is, as you say, in the process of leading to the 'biggest dropped ******* ever'.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Take your point Andy...but imo that was one politician (Cameron) taking leave of his senses in an effort to prevent the fragmentation of the Tory party. He, and others, then became utterly complacent in their handling of the 'Remain' campaign, but prior to that the vast majority of democratically elected MP's did not favour Brexit which is, as you say, in the process of leading to the 'biggest dropped ******* ever'.
    agreed, although I think BOTH sides put their arguments over pretty lamentably/corruptly. The main remain error was that they totally missed the point on the immigration issue, which IMO is not hatred towards individuals but concern that we'll just run out resources to handle the sheer volume as it increases.

    PS I voted remain but when I saw celebrities jumping on the 'all leave voters are racists' bandwagon I nearly voted leave just for buggeration. Billy Bragg started it I recall

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Take your point Andy...but imo that was one politician (Cameron) taking leave of his senses in an effort to prevent the fragmentation of the Tory party. He, and others, then became utterly complacent in their handling of the 'Remain' campaign, but prior to that the vast majority of democratically elected MP's did not favour Brexit which is, as you say, in the process of leading to the 'biggest dropped ******* ever'.
    The very fact that the vast majority of "snouts in the trough" politicians favoured "remain" is possibly the biggest single reason to vote "leave". You assume, Mangara, that MP's have any more knowledge about the EU than Joe Public: I am not convinced they do, other than by comparison to the most ill informed members of the public. merely being an MP does not in itself give you any more understanding of the complexities of an institution like the EU. They may have had passing interaction with the EU in their ministerial etc roles, if they had one - but why should a newly elected opposition backbencher (for example) have any better idea of the functionality of the machine than you or I?

    I voted remain, but only after considerable soul searching and realising that I was in effect voting in trust for my children and grandchildren. It was a close run thing. Let me give you my personal experience of interfacing with the EU when I was called to give evidence by DGIV (the Directorate General for Competition) a few years back. My appointment was for 11-30 and I was advised to get their an hour before this time. I walked past miles of faceless buildings until I found the right entrance. It took me 30 minutes to get past security even though there was a queue of one person (me). I had to surrender my passport for the time I was inside the building. It then took another 20 minutes to make my way along endless corridors of power (thanks for the expression Mr Snow) until I reached the meeting place. I was then met by no less than 5 bureaucrats (one each from Belgium, France, Romania, Czech Republic and the leader from, needless to say, Germany). The interview took about 45 minutes and was "simulcast" in two other languages for the benefit of the French and German speakers. I was then released back into the wild after what can only be described as a Kafka-esque experience. The Romanian interviewer was "dead fit" though, in a vampiric sort of way!

    Some weeks later I had occasion to try to contact the people again to try to get an opinion on a question relevant to the interview. Not one of those bureaucrats was still working on the case - all had moved on and the new people in situ had no clue what I was talking about. A few years later (yes, years) DGIV dropped the investigation having come to no conclusions.

    The words "piss up" and "brewery" come to mind

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    agreed, although I think BOTH sides put their arguments over pretty lamentably/corruptly. The main remain error was that they totally missed the point on the immigration issue, which IMO is not hatred towards individuals but concern that we'll just run out resources to handle the sheer volume as it increases.

    PS I voted remain but when I saw celebrities jumping on the 'all leave voters are racists' bandwagon I nearly voted leave just for buggeration. Billy Bragg started it I recall
    Wouldn't argue with any of that. Must have missed the celebrity bit...rarely listen to them...and I don't think 'all leave voters are racist', although sadly I think it likely that all the racists probably voted 'Leave' which in turn is one of the reasons for the referendum being 'hijacked'.

  18. #58
    Two or three points there Rog.
    I find your story completely believable and wouldn't doubt you for a second, but isn't that the story of bureaucrats in all walks of life?
    My own experience is nothing like as grand as yours - just dealing with Derby City Council - but the attitude, complacency and worse that you describe is much the same.
    Secondly, when you speak of me assuming that MP's have 'more knowledge about the EU than Joe Public'. I think you have to accept that yours is not the voice of 'Joe Public'. Not entirely sure what your job is but I believe you are paid for your expertise on economic matters. As such you may well be better informed than some MP's but the majority of those who voted, and I include myself, are not.
    Even the most recently elected MP must surely be expected to have some familiarity with budgetary matters and the relationship between the UK and the EU. I don't hold MP's in any great regard at all - enlightened despotism is imo by far the most effective form of government except that you can't guarantee the 'enlightened' bit! I would however expect any MP to be better informed than those Brexiteers (not all RP and Angry) who appear to have hijacked a referendum on the EU to protest about immigration and because they believed the big 350m lie, all of which has led to the current economic and political chaos and appears to be sending us rapidly back into recession.

  19. #59
    for the collapse in the value of the pound, the increase in hate crime and the likely break up of the U.K. What a legacy...just what we needed.
    1. the pound has not collapsed and always gone up and down. Some don't like it some do. Exports can actually benefit.
    In fact your comment lacks any sound credence considering that, historically, the British Pound reached an all time high of 2.86 in December of 1957 and a record low of 1.05 in February of 1985.
    But that must have been the fault of Brexit.
    2. race hate- the Independent(shock horror)claims hate crime has gone up 57% Now I'm not condoning any of this, yet look at the figures before jumping on a soap box.

    2009- 52 028 hate crimes
    2015- 52 528 hate cimes

    The big leap?
    There were 85 reports of hate crimes to True Vision, a police-funded reporting website, between Thursday and Sunday compared with 54 reports over the same period four weeks ago. yep, 31 more crimes of a few idiots, printing silly labels.

    It's nice to see the anger and project fear is still feeding the gullible. Of course hate crime in this country has nothing to do with the influx of circa 350 000 people per year flooding the country. (thats a lie as well seeing as the DWP issued 650 000 NI numbers last year)
    So if you wish blame Farage. Many of us moaned at what the EU was doing and he stepped in.
    We'll see how this great project fairs when Turkey/Albania/Ukraine join the fray and not only suck at the teat of plenty, but their populations are on the move.
    Then you'll start to see hate crime of which we won't have to endure.

  20. #60
    Anag

    Derby City Council, I worked there many moons ago. Blast from the past. I always remember playing in an inter departmental charity cricket match and the then soon to be Chief Executive Ray Cowlishaw ran me out with a fluke throw at the wicket from about 50 yards away. He never let me forget that. I think the CEO at that time was a chap called Tagg if I recall?
    Last edited by Oldtimeram; 05-07-2016 at 01:33 PM.

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