OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Yes I can suggest it wasn't foolish and ignorant. It wasn't ignorant because being ignorant is 'lacking knowledge or awareness' and the folk I've listened to (and I'll say again, I get around a bit so it's a lot) were in full awareness that the vote wasn't directly about non-EU Immigration, just as they were in full awareness that the vote wasn't even meant to be soleley/mainly about inter-EU immigration. I would argue that it was those who initiated the vote in the hope that it would put the EU question 'to bed' for good were the ignorant ones, lacking knowledge or awareness of the mood of the folk who put them in their position of power. Whether it proves to be foolish is for history to decide, and I'd suggest that anyone who has already decided that they can read the future on this is suffering from another great vice, arrogance. I'm prepared to wait and see, and revisit their foolishness or otherwise.

When I speak to people who are by all accounts intelligent - middle class middle income professionals who give their reasons for voting leave I am usually lost for words by the ignorance they demonstrate, that and their naivety!

[ramAnag]

Yes I can suggest it wasn't foolish and ignorant. It wasn't ignorant because being ignorant is 'lacking knowledge or awareness' and the folk I've listened to (and I'll say again, I get around a bit so it's a lot) were in full awareness that the vote wasn't directly about non-EU Immigration, just as they were in full awareness that the vote wasn't even meant to be soleley/mainly about inter-EU immigration. I would argue that it was those who initiated the vote in the hope that it would put the EU question 'to bed' for good were the ignorant ones, lacking knowledge or awareness of the mood of the folk who put them in their position of power. Whether it proves to be foolish is for history to decide, and I'd suggest that anyone who has already decided that they can read the future on this is suffering from another great vice, arrogance. I'm prepared to wait and see, and revisit their foolishness or otherwise.

Andy, I completely accept that those in power, on both sides of the political divide, are ignorant of the plight of the ‘left behinds’ and also that the Remain campaign was epitomised by half arsed complacency.
It is though, still utterly ridiculous to suggest that those who voted ‘Leave’, on the issue of non EU immigration, weren’t displaying ignorance and foolishness. The two have nothing to do with each other. It was, under such circumstances a ‘protest vote’ as I have suggested before and you have always denied.

[Andy_Faber]

Andy, I completely accept that those in power, on both sides of the political divide, are ignorant of the plight of the ‘left behinds’ and also that the Remain campaign was epitomised by half arsed complacency.
It is though, still utterly ridiculous to suggest that those who voted ‘Leave’, on the issue of non EU immigration, weren’t displaying ignorance and foolishness. The two have nothing to do with each other. It was, under such circumstances a ‘protest vote’ as I have suggested before and you have always denied.

We must have missed a few of each others’ many rants, absolutely it was a protest vote

[ramAnag]

We must have missed a few of each others’ many rants, absolutely it was a protest vote

Not got time to trawl through till I find where you questioned me saying that Brexit was largely a protest vote. It does add to the absurdity of it all though...the fact that you now accept that something you personally voted against (Brexit) and then sought to protect you now accept was little more than the result of a ‘protest vote’.
That’s okay then is it...our country arguably taking its most serious - and potentially damaging - decision on the back of a protest vote much of which is concerned with something the EU has nothing at all to do with?

[Andy_Faber]

Not got time to trawl through till I find where you questioned me saying that Brexit was largely a protest vote. It does add to the absurdity of it all though...the fact that you now accept that something you personally voted against (Brexit) and then sought to protect you now accept was little more than the result of a ‘protest vote’.
That’s okay then is it...our country arguably taking its most serious - and potentially damaging - decision on the back of a protest vote much of which is concerned with something the EU has nothing at all to do with?

RA, you're confusing observation with support. I'm exploring the root cause/reasons behind what's happened, not beating the the drum for those reasons. And i believe a protest vote is a valid vote. Certainly more than not voting

[ramAnag]

RA, you're confusing observation with support. I'm exploring the root cause/reasons behind what's happened, not beating the the drum for those reasons. And i believe a protest vote is a valid vote. Certainly more than not voting

Not if you vote on the basis of something which is totally irrelevant to the Referendum it isn’t...it’s just patently ridiculous whereas some of those who didn’t vote may have chosen not to do so because they genuinely didn’t believe they were sufficiently well informed.
Voting ‘Leave’ on the basis of opposition to non EU immigration is completely nonsensical.

[Andy_Faber]

Not if you vote on the basis of something which is totally irrelevant to the Referendum it isn’t...it’s just patently ridiculous whereas some of those who didn’t vote may have chosen not to do so because they genuinely didn’t believe they were sufficiently well informed.
Voting ‘Leave’ on the basis of opposition to non EU immigration is completely nonsensical.

We'll have to agree to differ, lets move on. The whole Brexit farce was crystalised a few minutes ago on Newsnight with a dozen folk shouting across each other about Brexit and no-one in control (or rather Emily Maitless, which is the same thing)

[ramAnag]

We'll have to agree to differ, lets move on. The whole Brexit farce was crystalised a few minutes ago on Newsnight with a dozen folk shouting across each other about Brexit and no-one in control (or rather Emily Maitless, which is the same thing)

Happy to move on Andy, but honestly...when you speak of the crystallisation of the Brexit farce it surely can’t be any more absurd than people voting for Brexit on the basis of objections to non EU immigration. Makes about as much sense as refusing a night out at an Italian Ristorante because you once had a dodgy masala at the local Taj Mahal.

[swaledale]

Happy to move on Andy, but honestly...when you speak of the crystallisation of the Brexit farce it surely can’t be any more absurd than people voting for Brexit on the basis of objections to non EU immigration. Makes about as much sense as refusing a night out at an Italian Ristorante because you once had a dodgy masala at the local Taj Mahal.

Its a huge simplification to say the Brexit vote was purely against non eu immigration, the the 37% who voted did so on the basis of

stop non eu immigration

stop all immigration

take the Uk back to the "golden years" of the 1940's and 50's (or even pre war when we were a world power) ignoring the fact the world's chnaged a bit since then!

Believed that £350 million would go to the NHS instead of to the EU

don't like the idea that the UK is better off working together with other nations economically and would rather we had "control" over everything (no matter how illusory that control actually is) and be an isolationist nation even if that means being worse off.

Completely pissed off with austerity, didn't like Cameron and voted in protest against anything he was in favour of

Completely ****ing bonkers and didn't have a clue why they were voting

Anyone like to put %'s against each category or even add one I haven't included?


Anyway the likelihood of a referendum on the deal is increasing every day! Sow e may not commit economic hari kari after all.

[AdiSalisbury]

People voted Remain because:

Their Facebook friend said so.

They think that they would be deported because their Grandad came from abroad.

They think that Europe and EU are the same thing.

They think that it is an anti-racism vote.

They think that trade with EU members would stop.

They think that, despite globalisation, we will be "isolated".

They think that anyone voting leave are "little Englanders"

They think that the EU has better employment rights that they'd lose.

...I could go on.

It's easy to pick out ignorant reasons for people to vote how they did, but democracy gives everyone that right. You can't just imply ignorance on one side, it is both sides.