OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

Wishing you all a very happy Brexit Day........ oh, hang on.......... oops!

[ramAnag]

Wishing you all a very happy Brexit Day........ oh, hang on.......... oops!

It’s a lot happier than it might have been!

Hope the spoiled little rich kids of the ERG go the same way as the May Queen and common sense prevails.

[Andy_Faber]

On a positive note:

There's been a lot of noise in the media about the rest of the world considering Britain a laughing stock due to the handling of Brexit. My own and Mrs F's recent globetrotting has revealed that the opinion of UK the country and its inhabitants hasn't changed one bit, its our politicians they are lolling at. My Greek friends especially think its hilarious that their politicians enticed the EU to bail out their crumbling hotchpotch of islands yet ours seemed to have turned all our considerable firepower inwards.

[MadAmster]

Am I the only one wondering when the 650 will stop marching into the valley of death and finally tell the rest of us what they do want as opposed to wjhat they don't want?

We have seen all the arguments over the past 2 years about how close the vote was, and it was. That 63% didn't vote Leave and 67% didn't vote Remain etc etc etc.

Here are a few stats from a different angle. I will point out that, as an expat with no thoughts of returning to stay having been away for 35 years I no axe to grind either way apart from my great dislike of where the EU is heading.

More than 400 MPs (are supposed to, but don't) represent constituencies that voted leave
There are more Labour MP from Leave areas than there are from Remain areas
The same is true of the Tories
More people voted to Leave than voted to remain
More regions voted Leave than voted Remain

The only stat that has Remain ahead is in the House of Commons, it would seem.

Make of that what you will, and I have no doubt you will.

[ramAnag]

Am I the only one wondering when the 650 will stop marching into the valley of death and finally tell the rest of us what they do want as opposed to wjhat they don't want?

We have seen all the arguments over the past 2 years about how close the vote was, and it was. That 63% didn't vote Leave and 67% didn't vote Remain etc etc etc.

Here are a few stats from a different angle. I will point out that, as an expat with no thoughts of returning to stay having been away for 35 years I no axe to grind either way apart from my great dislike of where the EU is heading.

More than 400 MPs (are supposed to, but don't) represent constituencies that voted leave
There are more Labour MP from Leave areas than there are from Remain areas
The same is true of the Tories
More people voted to Leave than voted to remain
More regions voted Leave than voted Remain

The only stat that has Remain ahead is in the House of Commons, it would seem.

Make of that what you will, and I have no doubt you will.

In respectful answer, Amster.

1) Having a ‘great dislike of where the EU is heading’ is hardly the same as having ‘no axe to grind either way’.

2) We live in a Parliamentary Democracy...that is to say we elect our representatives to Parliament every five years believing that they have the time and relative expertise to make informed decisions relating to such complex issues on our behalf.

3) Our democracy was compromised as a result of the People voting on the basis of lies, misinformation and electoral rule breaking.

4) The issue of Brexit was always far too complex to be treated as a binary choice. Since the Referendum many people have realised that and those in favour of leaving have proved incapable of making their case or displaying any leadership.

5) Our electorate equates to around 49 million. Of those 17.4 million voted to Leave. You do the maths.

6) Why are you so bothered? By your own admission you’re going to be living in the EU whatever happens and from what I’ve seen Holland, in the heart of the EU, seems a great place to live.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Do I get a feeling of deja vu here. Cant we just move on from the "it wasnt a majority" and "it was based on lies" since neither side got a majority and both sides lied. Those factors, like it or not, are no longer relevant, so 3 and 5 are dismissed. 6 isn't relevant in the round.

So, lets look at the 2nd one: "parliament is better qualified to make a decision than the people are". Have you been listening for the last two months? or even the last 3 years? If ever a body can be seen as unfit for purpose, it is our parliament. They are a joke. The Tories cant agree amongst themselves what to do; Labour arent interested, they just want to oppose everything the Tories suggest, as they want to make it an election issue, in the hop they might win. The Libdems dont matter. The SNP at least have a consistent approach in favour of remain, albeit a doomed one. The DUP appear to see this as entirely a parochial issue.

So, everyone in parliament is thinking politics still and dont appear to be concerned with the issue that needs resolution. They are great at defining what they dont want, and unable to define what they do. Its a ****ing national disgrace. As I have said before, the Queen should dissolve parliament and all standing MPs banned from seeking reelection.

#4 I agree with, albeit your perspective is one eyed. Trouble is, the electorate couldnt reach a real majority decision when faced with only 2 choices. More choice would not result in a better decision. A second referendum wouldnt either, I imagine.

So the only solution now, as I see it, is to revoke Article 50 and face the consequences of "revolution".

But before the remainers start to crow about "their victory" - remember its the extreme members of the Brexit coalition that will have caused Brexit not to happen. you, RA, should be cheering Teresa May from on high, exalting in he brilliance as a remainer mole.

Oh and in case you may have missed it, post Brexit, if it happens, one half of Ireland will be on a different time zone from the other half - or perhaps one half of the UK will be on a different time zone from NI. It could be argued that the DUP are already 100 years behind the rest of the world though.

[MadAmster]

In respectful answer, Amster.

1) Having a ‘great dislike of where the EU is heading’ is hardly the same as having ‘no axe to grind either way’.

2) We live in a Parliamentary Democracy...that is to say we elect our representatives to Parliament every five years believing that they have the time and relative expertise to make informed decisions relating to such complex issues on our behalf.

3) Our democracy was compromised as a result of the People voting on the basis of lies, misinformation and electoral rule breaking.

4) The issue of Brexit was always far too complex to be treated as a binary choice. Since the Referendum many people have realised that and those in favour of leaving have proved incapable of making their case or displaying any leadership.

5) Our electorate equates to around 49 million. Of those 17.4 million voted to Leave. You do the maths.

6) Why are you so bothered? By your own admission you’re going to be living in the EU whatever happens and from what I’ve seen Holland, in the heart of the EU, seems a great place to live.

1. I'd much rather we reverted to a Free Trade Area, Much more sensible and it stops those megalomaniacs in the Commission plunging Europe ever closer to a bankrupt dictatorship. France is in financial trouble and from the Gilets Jaunes as well. Germany had negative growth in both Q3 and Q4 of 2018. Two successive quarters of negative growth is the definition of a recession. It looks like the figures for Q! '19 will show a 3rd successive decline. Greece has something like 50% unemployment among U25s, Spain 40%, Italy 32%. Italy Greece Spain.... all stoney broke. Old Eastern bloc countries only doing the things they want to and saying yes but doing no to all the things they don't like. They have learnt that particular lesson very well.

2. They "represent" you. There are constituencies where they voted almost 70% Leave and their MP voted Remain in Parliament. P45 at the ready come the next election for those MPs

3. .... and that should have been hammered at the time. The vast majority of current MPs entered this session of Parliament on the back of a manifesto pledging to implement Brexit and they should do that........ was it not for the fact that they are politicians

4. All because of party politics from most sides.

5. Not an argument anybody will ever win rA. As I said in the post you replied to, 63% didn't vote Leave. 67% didn't vote Remain. More Constituencies, more Regions etc voted Leave than voted Remain. The major problem being that there should have been a caveat of a 2/3 majority or more than half of those allowed to vote.... or similar for such a huge subject. We can, I believe, agree on that. As it is, with the exception of the 63% stance, every way you look at it, Leave did better than Remain. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, only time will tell.

6. We have PR so not a lot gets done and when it does it tends to benefit those needing extra benefitting the least. At the last election, the largest party in the coalition of 4 parties governing the country had these 2 things among others in their manifesto. Increase the lower VAT rate on things like books, clothes and food from 6% to 9%. The other was to scrap dividend tax as this would entice multinationals to move their HQ's here. The other 3 weren't interested in having dividend tax scrapped but agreed provided it was reversed if ot was proven that that multi's wouldn't move HQ. Then Unilever shareholders voted to keeo their HQ in London. Dividend tax was reintroduced. Not scrapping that tax saved the government €2Bn euros a year. The VAT increase delivers €2Bn a year. If oyu don't lose €2BN you don't have to raise it from elsewhere (VAT increase for instance). The VAT did not revert to 6%. That would have helped the man in the street ahve more to spend, he would, meaning more trade etc etc etc jobs, taxes, less dole paid out...... they don't have a clue unless the general idea is that by hook or by crook the gap bw**** rich and poor must grow, whatever the cost.....

Anything that reduces the power the Commission has gets my support. They need taking down at least a dozen pegs. At a time when "Populism" is growing, Verhofstadt stood in Parliament, waving his arms like a whirling dervish, demanding that the member states devolved even more power to "Brussels". The populist movements will get, IMO, at least 40% of the votes/seats in the May Euro Elections and Tusk, Juncker et al will have noone but themselves to blame.

With regard to your reply rA, it was indeed respectful. Yours always are.

[ramAnag]

Do I get a feeling of deja vu here. Cant we just move on from the "it wasnt a majority" and "it was based on lies" since neither side got a majority and both sides lied. Those factors, like it or not, are no longer relevant, so 3 and 5 are dismissed. 6 isn't relevant in the round.

So, lets look at the 2nd one: "parliament is better qualified to make a decision than the people are". Have you been listening for the last two months? or even the last 3 years? If ever a body can be seen as unfit for purpose, it is our parliament. They are a joke. The Tories cant agree amongst themselves what to do; Labour arent interested, they just want to oppose everything the Tories suggest, as they want to make it an election issue, in the hop they might win. The Libdems dont matter. The SNP at least have a consistent approach in favour of remain, albeit a doomed one. The DUP appear to see this as entirely a parochial issue.

So, everyone in parliament is thinking politics still and dont appear to be concerned with the issue that needs resolution. They are great at defining what they dont want, and unable to define what they do. Its a ****ing national disgrace. As I have said before, the Queen should dissolve parliament and all standing MPs banned from seeking reelection.

#4 I agree with, albeit your perspective is one eyed. Trouble is, the electorate couldnt reach a real majority decision when faced with only 2 choices. More choice would not result in a better decision. A second referendum wouldnt either, I imagine.

So the only solution now, as I see it, is to revoke Article 50 and face the consequences of "revolution".

But before the remainers start to crow about "their victory" - remember its the extreme members of the Brexit coalition that will have caused Brexit not to happen. you, RA, should be cheering Teresa May from on high, exalting in he brilliance as a remainer mole.

Oh and in case you may have missed it, post Brexit, if it happens, one half of Ireland will be on a different time zone from the other half - or perhaps one half of the UK will be on a different time zone from NI. It could be argued that the DUP are already 100 years behind the rest of the world though.

Yes you do...tedious isn’t it...but sadly it does remain relevant. The argument that democracy has been betrayed if Brexit is cancelled/overturned doesn’t stand up because democracy had already been ‘betrayed’ by the rule breakers and liars.

Yes, you’re right, our Parliamentarians have performed abysmally...but that doesn’t alter the premise regarding our system of government...anyway, have you heard Joe Public in the pub?

Never going to happen!

The point is...the binary choice offered was futile. People had no opportunity to say what they actually wanted. The Referendum was simply an exercise in how not to do things, but I have to agree...more choice may well lead to greater confusion even though the electorate is now undeniably better informed.


Totally agree about the DUP.

[swaledale]

As you all know, I am very anti EU. You also know why because I have explained it on more than 1 occasion. Personally I would back any party that that took over my idea of the middle road to scrap the EU completely and revert tp the pre Maastricht position of the whole thing being no more than a free trade area with some necessary rules to make it so. Those rules should include the limitations on the banks, the stock market and the money markets that I have also previously explained. Take some of the power back off the 1% and thereby give the man in the street more cash in hand through lower taxes for him and making the multinationals pay what they ought to as opposed to the cosy little pay nowt deals they have made with various governments TMITS will spend that extra creating more jobs, taking people off the dole, increase turnover/profit/dividend for the multinationals and benefitting everybody in the end. Multis and their share holders will take a hit in year 1 but after that it's all roses for everybody.

US of E? Forget it.

One small problem the Eu was never "just" a free trade area, a common myth perpetuated by those who dont read their history. Its genesis was political union to avoid forever the possibility of another war in europe, which one has to admit it has achieved. Going back to heath's time and you will see that the EEC was a political as well as an economic institution.

Funnily enough the Eu is proposing to clamp down on tax avoidance on multi nationals along the lines you suggest - its one of the main reasons the rich elite (who pretend their not to hoodwink the common man) are so keen on Brexit, they don't want the Eu to force the Uk to clamp down on tax avoidance and tax havens!

[MadAmster]

The EU has been in existence since 1992. How has it kept the peace for 70 odd years?

I find that line of thinking very disrespectful to NATO, the true reason for the lack of War in Europe.

As for the US of E, those who must be obeyed denied for decades that a US of E was the ultimate goal. It was from the minute the "Common Market" of 6 countries was created. It's not what I want.