OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

I’d take issue with the idea that both parties fought the last election on a ‘Leave platform’ but you’re right it’s a ‘huge mess’.

Calling it a Platform might be overstating it a little but both said they would "respect/honour" the referendum decision or words to that effect....... and, IMO, most people would have taken that to mean that they would ensure that the UK left the EU.

[ramAnag]

Calling it a Platform might be overstating it a little but both said they would "respect/honour" the referendum decision or words to that effect....... and, IMO, most people would have taken that to mean that they would ensure that the UK left the EU.

I accept that point but would add that the last General Election was called by Theresa - ‘there will be no General Election’ - May as an opportunist move which backfired massively.

Context is everything and when it was called, only about nine months after the Referendum, a great deal less was known about the likely implications and consequences of Brexit. Both Parties were scared to death of appearing undemocratic and the Brexit debate was in its infancy.

Since then, contrary to TM’s words, everything has changed. People, including many politicians, are now much more aware.
Concepts such as ‘single market’, ‘no deal/soft Brexit’ and ‘Irish backstop’ have now almost entered the realms of common currency.
They’d been barely heard of in run up to the Referendum and the claims made by the likes of Johnson and Fox - £350m to the NHS and ‘easiest negotiations ever’ - have since been proved to be bogus.

The devil, as they say, is in the detail...and the details are markedly different from what people thought they were voting for approaching three years ago.

[MadAmster]

the claims made by the likes of Johnson and Fox - £350m to the NHS and ‘easiest negotiations ever’ - have since been proved to be bogus.
.

I never saw the £350M a week to the NHS as a promise. I saw it as an example of what COULD be done as opposed to what WOULD be done. Anybody who knew about the flow of money would have known that, of the £350M a week the UK pays the EU, almost half of it comes back in the form of grants, subsidies and Maggie's rebate. There was only ever £180M a week "available" unless grants to the regions were stopped.

As for the negotiations, I would contend that May hasn't negotiated, merely stood back and admired how the EU wrote a new treaty keeping the UK in everything except for the decision making process but still paying annually for the privilege over and above the £39Bn divorce settlement. The next bit, the trade deal, which the EU refuses to even discuss until the UK signs the surrender treaty. It should have been a single treaty affair and, when they said "political treaty first and only then will we talk trade", she should have walked away.

IMO they would have come back all the weaker for it and May would have been in a strong position able to get a deal that helps the UK as opposed to abject surrender. Weakest PM since Chamberlain.

[ramAnag]

‘I never saw the £350m a week to the NHS as a promise...anybody who knew about the flow of money would have known that.’

And there you have it...you might know about the ‘flow of money’ and you might have known the words on the side of Boris’ bloody battlebus were never deliverable, but then you are an intelligent, thinking, politically aware type of chap.

Not everyone has those attributes, indeed the majority don’t, which is precisely why such misleading and high profile suggestions, along with Farage’s ridiculous and dishonest poster are what we should be thinking of when we talk of democracy being compromised and betrayed.

‘Democratic’ decisions are worthless if based on false promises and dishonest evidence.

[MadAmster]

‘Democratic’ decisions are worthless if based on false promises and dishonest evidence.

AKA Party Political Manifestoes

[Andy_Faber]

Farage’s ridiculous and dishonest poster

Interesting point for discussion. The wily Farage didn't really put any context around that poster, he let folk draw their own conclusions. My conclusion was that the photo had no provenance so I ignored it. I was wrong, there was provenance, its easy to look it up on the internet. Being generous, half were true refugees and half were economic migrants. So to say 'that photo is of refugees' is wrong. Yet that is precisely what Anna Soubry 'said' (I don't know exactly how to describe the way she speaks these days, God knows how she gets served in a restaurant) on question time last week. Farage put her right but that's not my point. My point is that there were lies, exaggerations, ubfuscations, bending of the truth, paying with words etc on both sides, that's just the way of politics. As I've said a dozen times, there were/are no clean hands...

[ramAnag]

AKA Party Political Manifestoes

Very possibly...but when did two wrongs make a right?

[ramAnag]

Interesting point for discussion. The wily Farage didn't really put any context around that poster, he let folk draw their own conclusions. My conclusion was that the photo had no provenance so I ignored it. I was wrong, there was provenance, its easy to look it up on the internet. Being generous, half were true refugees and half were economic migrants. So to say 'that photo is of refugees' is wrong. Yet that is precisely what Anna Soubry 'said' (I don't know exactly how to describe the way she speaks these days, God knows how she gets served in a restaurant) on question time last week. Farage put her right but that's not my point. My point is that there were lies, exaggerations, ubfuscations, bending of the truth, paying with words etc on both sides, that's just the way of politics. As I've said a dozen times, there were/are no clean hands...

We often disagree, Andy...but I never thought I’d see you defending the indefensible.

It’s not an ‘interesting point for discussion’...it was just wrong!

[MadAmster]

Trump's lying is spectacular, both in the numbers told as in the content. The one that gets me laughing the most is the one where his Dad was born in Germany. Dad was born in the Bronx.

Theresa dosn't compare with Trump in either category but is still a quite spectacular liar. The will be no early General Election...... oh yes there was Tessa. We will leave the EU at 23:00 on March 29th 2019....... oh no we won't Tessa. There will be no customs union..... oh yes there will Tessa. We will not be in the single market...... oh yes we will Tessa. There will be no freedom of movement...... oh yes there will Tessa.

.... and the UK will still be paying billions a year to the EU to be a part of all those things we, according to Tessa, wouldn't be in, on top of the £39Bn divorce settlement AND the UK has no more say in how EU policy is formulated.

Brexit In Name Only.

This next bit will surprise many........ It is my honest opinion that, given the abject surrender known as the withdrawal agreement, the EU will tell Tessa or her successor exactly what they deign to give us as a trade deal and we can take it or leave it. They have the government over a barrel and will keep them there. I know this farce has cost the UK a lot but, given what any trade deal may look like, and I don't believe that would be any more advantageous to the UK than the current surrender deal is, remaining a member is the best option. No Deal is a better option than the straightjacket on the table plus straightjacket number 2 aka the trade deal which the EU will write and out Tory PM will simply accept and sign.

Where are the hard words? Where is the action from the PM saying "listen Tusk et al, we are the UK. We are the 5th largets World Economy. We are the largest European contributor to NATO. Most of the EU economies rely on us as their largest trading partner. Treat us as such or lose out".

It's what Churchill would have told them. So would Maggie and I was never a fan of hers.

The UK is still one of the big lads. It should start acting like it. Not roll over like the softest of soft labradors.

[swaledale]

Interesting point for discussion. The wily Farage didn't really put any context around that poster, he let folk draw their own conclusions. My conclusion was that the photo had no provenance so I ignored it. I was wrong, there was provenance, its easy to look it up on the internet. Being generous, half were true refugees and half were economic migrants. So to say 'that photo is of refugees' is wrong. Yet that is precisely what Anna Soubry 'said' (I don't know exactly how to describe the way she speaks these days, God knows how she gets served in a restaurant) on question time last week. Farage put her right but that's not my point. My point is that there were lies, exaggerations, ubfuscations, bending of the truth, paying with words etc on both sides, that's just the way of politics. As I've said a dozen times, there were/are no clean hands...

Ah another who is foolish enough to believe what he reads on the internet! As if that were the bastion of all thats true and factual! I knew you were somewhat naive, thats obvious from some of the stuff you post, but to be an apologist for that poster confirms the extent to which you are unaware.

That poster was wrong, it had no provenance, Farage knew exactly what he was doing when he used it, it was a typical right wing neo fascist blame the foreigner, their invading the country tactic aimed at the less well informed person and it seems swallowed hook line and sinker by those who should be able to deduce better.