OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Ermigod I'm gonna widdle meself

I post when I'm able to!!! Now is this 501?

[swaledale]

Seems it was so how low..I mean long can we go!

[ramAnag]

Seems it was so how low..I mean long can we go!

Well...it's about another twenty three months till the separation is possibly complete isn't it? At 500 posts over the last twenty four days that's...really quite a long way.

[swaledale]

Actually its up to two years once notice to leave has been issued and theres no sign that the government are in any hurry to do that.

[swaledale]

I think that's very enlightening, and makes a bit of a mockery of the idea proposed by some remainers that 'free movement is a two way street'. Who would WANT to move from UK to, for instance, Rumania? And as well as not accounting for the lack of adherance to such minimums across Europe, it actually (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't account for the high percentage in many countries who have an income of zero ie they are unemployed.

Lets not forget that there are a huge number of people of all EU countries including the UK who benefit by being able to move to work across the EU, in industry, financial and other services and research this is beneficial for the Uk economy. in many other areas, NHS and other service sectors, agriculture and construction there simply arent enough Uk citizens with the appropriate skills to fill the vacancies, immigrant labour has not only enabled firms to trade in the Uk but contributed financially to the UK economy, one of the reasons we are economically strong.

Now in or out of the EU we will still need that labour force - stricter border controls may enable undesirables to be refused entry, but then thats possible now if applied correctly.

I don't buy the 50 years for the economies to equalise Rog, though at the moment insistence on the maintenance of the Euro is hampering that recovery and Germany cannot afford to pay the bill for much longer.

There are ways within the Eu rules to curb immigration, the Blair labour government did not apply the 7 year delay when it could is just one example, the point being though that the issues raised will not be solved by leaving the EU and that many millions did vote for leave either as a protest vote or because they thought that was the solution to the problem.

[swaledale]

Very interestingly, the labour leadership wallah, Owen Smith stated on Newsnight last night that he believes that the UK should looby/negotiate hard to 'do a deal' for free movement of goods and services WITHOUT free movement of labour. Easy for him to say in opposition but maybe a hint of the nature of the negotiations to come.

Andy i wasn't havinga go, just that free movement of labour was and is a founding principle of the EU's free market, and whilst there is dispute as to it being "good" for the Uk, in point of fact it has been an economic benefit as one my other posts pointed out .

Now as for this idea that we could somehow negotiate access to the single market without accepting free movement of labour, well- neither Norway or Switzerland have managed such a deal. Thats not to say that changing attitudes around the Eu make this an impossible aim, after all anything is possible, BUT to date theres been no sign that the EU will accept this.

The other matter is that acess to the single market as things stand (and yes we shall see how the negotiations go) require adherence to EU rules anda payment into the EU, so I cannot for the life of me see how acceptance of those conditions, basically accept all the EU requirements but have no voice or bility to influence the EU is going to either benefit the UK more than being in the Uk or satisfy those who voted for Brexit.

Whilst we shall see what the negotiations bring, for me IF the EU was to give way on free movement of labour say, then other EU countries might well question why would they remain in the Eu, something that is a concern to them. We shall no doubt see, but the principal of agreeing to comply with the rules of a club if one wants the benefits of that club must still apply.

[Gaspode]

....stricter border controls may enable undesirables to be refused entry, but then thats possible now if applied correctly.....

Actually it's not unless you limit your definition of undesirables to those with the most serious criminal records - anyone else with an EU passport can wander in unimpeded - that includes folk with no intention of working or indeed those who mean us harm - and don't forget that the many millions of migrants who have recently arrived in the EU (indeed been actively encouraged by Mrs Merkel) will become naturalised EU citizens within the next couple of years and at that point will also gain that right to free movement.....

[swaledale]

Actually it's not unless you limit your definition of undesirables to those with the most serious criminal records - anyone else with an EU passport can wander in unimpeded - that includes folk with no intention of working or indeed those who mean us harm - and don't forget that the many millions of migrants who have recently arrived in the EU (indeed been actively encouraged by Mrs Merkel) will become naturalised EU citizens within the next couple of years and at that point will also gain that right to free movement.....

Your referring to the Schengen agreement which allows unchecked movement with open borders, that has never applied to the UK and there are procedures even inside the Schengen zone for periods of threats where everyones details can be checked.

In the Uk the border officials can and often do check everyones passport even EU citizens as the numerous times I've waited for immigration to check my passport proves.

As for those who means us harm, the vast majority of terror attacks have been from residents of the UK and bear in mind that the US which has one of the strongest border controls had 9/11.

So its a false premise that border controls can and will stop terror attacks - they can help and the UK already has them anyway so Brexit wont change that, if someone has a valid passport and there a person has no history of terrorist or criminal activity he or she would be admitted.

The refugee issue is another matter, something that the UK will have to assist with inside or outside the EU, but the assertion that they would all want to come over here from germany is a little far fetched.

[Gaspode]

Your referring to the Schengen agreement which allows unchecked movement with open borders, that has never applied to the UK and there are procedures even inside the Schengen zone for periods of threats where everyones details can be checked.

In the Uk the border officials can and often do check everyones passport even EU citizens as the numerous times I've waited for immigration to check my passport proves.

As for those who means us harm, the vast majority of terror attacks have been from residents of the UK and bear in mind that the US which has one of the strongest border controls had 9/11.

So its a false premise that border controls can and will stop terror attacks - they can help and the UK already has them anyway so Brexit wont change that, if someone has a valid passport and there a person has no history of terrorist or criminal activity he or she would be admitted.

The refugee issue is another matter, something that the UK will have to assist with inside or outside the EU, but the assertion that they would all want to come over here from germany is a little far fetched.

I'm not referring to the Schengen agreement - I'm referring to the free movement of people - just because they have to have their passports checked does not stop people we would rather not have here from entering - you've actually argued as much in your third paragraph "if someone has a valid passport and there a person has no history of terrorist or criminal activity he or she would be admitted" - that group of people includes the work shy, the health tourists and people who wish us harm - we cannot differentiate while we are in the EU and we do not have the right to turn them away.
As far as refugees go, I at no point stated that they would all want to come here - what I said was that they will have the right to come here if they choose to - based on the number of recent issues in France & Germany involving people who come into this category, even the most pro-EU supporter should be concerned that the EU is (or at least will be when refugees become naturalised EU citizens) wide open to more-wide spread problems than those we've seen so far...

[swaledale]

I might be a bit thick here, but how does not being in the EU change the fact that a person who has no previous record and has a valid passport and all their documentation in order will be allowed into the country? How does that magically be able to stop someone who wishes to do us harm when neither we nor anyone else knows that? How do we differentiate between them?

AS for the workshy, health tourists, what proportion of immigrants from the EU comprise those? The vast majority are here for legitimate reasons, work, do not claim any benefits and pay through their taxes for the services they receive. Again how do you differentiate at the point of entry the "deserving" immigrant from the "non deserving" immigrant?

A far greater problem are illegal immigrants, which in or out of the EU the government seems unable to do much about.

As for the issues that occurred in France and germany - most were residents, one was a failed asylum seeker - we ahve those in this country and that has nothing to do with being in the EU - thats the point I keep trying to make - I mean there is a reason why there are 2,000 people camped across the sea in calais, they aren't permitted to come into the UK.

I know you didn't say that all those refugees would want to come here explicitly, but you were intimating that or thats my interpretation - to me that is saying that the refugees will cause widespread problems, when again the vast majority don't and never will they are people whose lives have been torn apart from war seeking sanctuary. Leaving the Eu isn't going to resolve that problem for the UK.

Again I point out that the USA with its infamously strict border controls didn't stop 9/11 happening.