OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Blimey Andy...it was only a joke. I think his reaction to MA’s point (5495) would be more illuminating.

Can’t be that nice if he likes Rush...done Derby untold harm that bloke...allegedly.

Is the concept of Zakat so very different from any other form of giving to charity and is it unique amongst religions?
Sure I worked with a bloke once who was involved with one form of Christianity or other which suggested we should all aim to give away at least 5% of our earnings to charity.

I thought we did give away 5% already via the tax system funding overseas aid, the benefits system etc

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Geoff Parkstone;39326874]I thought we did give away 5% already via the tax system funding overseas aid, the benefits system etc[/QUOT
Maybe we do...Parky.

I think he was meaning, directly to charities of one’s choice. Personally I have a number of monthly standing orders set up to a variety of causes including Cancer UK, Macmillan Cancer Care, a Leprosy support group who’s name I forget, Whale and Dolphin Conservation, Shelter, Crisis at Christmas, British Heart Foundation, Derbyshire Wildlife Trust and WaterAid. I’m certain many other people do much the same and neither they nor I need to be told to by any religious group, but otherwise Zakat seems harmless enough doesn’t it and as mista pointed out, it is largely voluntary.

Idealistically speaking...if all the money ‘wasted’ on aspects of Brexit, weaponry, MP’s expenses, and numerous other ‘establishment’ giveaways had been spent on research into Cancer etc it would probably have been largely cured by now...but then that’s my naive former ****age self speaking. Now of course, as a hard bitten and cynical adult, I know so much better.

[Geoff Parkstone]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39326890]

I thought we did give away 5% already via the tax system funding overseas aid, the benefits system etc[/QUOT
Maybe we do...Parky.

I think he was meaning, directly to charities of one’s choice. Personally I have a number of monthly standing orders set up to a variety of causes including Cancer UK, Macmillan Cancer Care, a Leprosy support group who’s name I forget, Whale and Dolphin Conservation, Shelter, Crisis at Christmas, British Heart Foundation, Derbyshire Wildlife Trust and WaterAid. I’m certain many other people do much the same and neither they nor I need to be told to by any religious group, but otherwise Zakat seems harmless enough doesn’t it and as mista pointed out, it is largely voluntary.

Idealistically speaking...if all the money ‘wasted’ on aspects of Brexit, weaponry, MP’s expenses, and numerous other ‘establishment’ giveaways had been spent on research into Cancer etc it would probably have been largely cured by now...but then that’s my naive former ****age self speaking. Now of course, as a hard bitten and cynical adult, I know so much better.

But, and here is my Malthusian side coming out, do we want to cure cancer? Disease is a natural way to curb population growth, as are wars.

I think your wish to cure cancer shows the capitalist side of you. Capitalism needs constant growth / demand for it to work, and without that growth the whole rather Ponzi like nature of the global economy struggles and ultimately will collapse. Trouble is that if we do have growth at the levels required to sustain capitalism, we destroy the environment more and more in the process of meeting that demand. In a word we are ****ed either way.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Oh yes, if you look far enough up thread you will see that it was me who first introduced zakat into the discussion, and spoke well of it

[ramAnag]

Oh yes, if you look far enough up thread you will see that it was me who first introduced zakat into the discussion, and spoke well of it

Actually you only said ‘it must hold broad appeal to those of a left leaning persuasion’...is that the same as you speaking well of it?

Do we really want to cure cancer? Of course...and all such diseases I would have thought.

Do we want to extend life to the extent that it is something to endure rather than enjoy...I would argue not and there lies a question which religion has imposed itself on rather unsatisfactorily.

As for the matter of War...as a means of population control...is it unrealistic to suggest that that should be a matter of increasing concern just now given the nature of our current World leaders.

Three big questions which probably come second only to how we get on against Leeds tonight.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Actually you only said ‘it must hold broad appeal to those of a left leaning persuasion’...is that the same as you speaking well of it?

Its as close as you'll get to n endorsement in my book!!

At a micro level, yes we do want to cure diseases such as cancer, my Dad died from cancer, I have one of the "dread diseases" myself and so at a personal level, we do. But taking that to the global stage, do we want to continually extend life expectancy and hence population and create more pressures on food, education, healthcare, pensions, social services etc: I'd say its questionable at least.

To be incredibly cynical, we need to find a cure but not share it with the heavily overpopulated countries such as China or India since, at least in the latter, the only way to abate overbreeding is to reduce life expectancy. A balance has to be found and soon. Trouble with this of course is that these two countries are the ones most likely to find the cure - always assuming that the Americans haven't already found the cures, but have not announced them as it would harm the pharmaceutical industry dramatically if anyone were to find cures to "the uncurable".

At present the issue of population control is, to my mind, second only to that of environmental damage in the list of problems that beset "mankind" - of course excluding the Leeds game, since followers of Leeds barely qualify for "mankind status". Compared to these, brexit is but a pimple on the arse of a very big polar bear trying to eat us - until of course polar bears are wiped out by the increased temperatures in the Arctic

[ramAnag]

Actually you only said ‘it must hold broad appeal to those of a left leaning persuasion’...is that the same as you speaking well of it?

Its as close as you'll get to n endorsement in my book!!

At a micro level, yes we do want to cure diseases such as cancer, my Dad died from cancer, I have one of the "dread diseases" myself and so at a personal level, we do. But taking that to the global stage, do we want to continually extend life expectancy and hence population and create more pressures on food, education, healthcare, pensions, social services etc: I'd say its questionable at least.

To be incredibly cynical, we need to find a cure but not share it with the heavily overpopulated countries such as China or India since, at least in the latter, the only way to abate overbreeding is to reduce life expectancy. A balance has to be found and soon. Trouble with this of course is that these two countries are the ones most likely to find the cure - always assuming that the Americans haven't already found the cures, but have not announced them as it would harm the pharmaceutical industry dramatically if anyone were to find cures to "the uncurable".

At present the issue of population control is, to my mind, second only to that of environmental damage in the list of problems that beset "mankind" - of course excluding the Leeds game, since followers of Leeds barely qualify for "mankind status". Compared to these, brexit is but a pimple on the arse of a very big polar bear trying to eat us - until of course polar bears are wiped out by the increased temperatures in the Arctic

I’ve always thought of you as a generally right leaning centrist with occasional ‘lefty’ impulses, GP so for you to be so apparently approving of something on the basis of it’s appeal to those who are ‘left leaning’ seems a little bit of a contradiction.

Either way you are nothing if not a thinking man and although the rest of your post is incredibly depressing it does, sadly, make some sense.

I think what I was getting at and where we probably agree is the difference between curing the ‘dread diseases’ and extending life expectancy almost for the sake of it.

As you know, I too have had recent brushes with the ‘big C’ albeit via those I love rather than first hand. My experience has been reassuring in that I have seen, first hand, the benefit of modern research in being able to treat and hopefully cure conditions which would, almost certainly, have been terminal to our parents generation.

For that reason and because I am close to a number of people who know infinitely more about such research than me, I do tend to believe that current research is going ahead which will lead to enormous breakthroughs in the treatment of a number of such conditions in the relatively near future.

Beyond that...what I disagree with - and here I suspect we are both totally at odds with religious bodies such as the more ‘militant’ wing of the Catholic Church - is the time, money, effort, resources and suffering spent on extending life when there is no attendant quality of life. In my opinion we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that allowing or even helping people to ‘go/pass away/shuffle off/die’ with dignity is the kindest and most humanely sensible course of action.

I completely agree with your suggestion that ‘population control’ is second only to environmental issues as regards issues that beset mankind. (Trump and others may be close too but Brexit doesn’t even feature).

I do find it sad though that you should even countenance the idea of not sharing medical breakthroughs with those such as the Indians and the Chinese. Other nations, even those most foreign to our way of life, are not the enemy and it is only by working together, whether that be on a worldwide or, back to the B-word again’, European stage that we can expect our planet to survive.

God that’s been depressing. Hope to God that Derby put us in a better mood tonight though seeing as I’m currently some way away I’ll be relying on reports from the likes of you to uplift my mood.

[Geoff Parkstone]

God that’s been depressing. Hope to God that Derby put us in a better mood tonight though seeing as I’m currently some way away I’ll be relying on reports from the likes of you to uplift my mood.

For someone who is not religious, you do seem to ask a lot of him!

To cheer you up, you can get 13-2 on Derby winning tomorrow

I still remain convinced that "Big Pharma" have found the solutions to several of these dread conditions, but reason that they can make more money out of selling "repeat prescriptions" than selling a "cure", so somewhere in a big warehouse in Area 51 is a cache of cures for cancer, diabetes, sickle cell, leukemia, ebola, leprosy etc

[ramAnag]

God that’s been depressing. Hope to God that Derby put us in a better mood tonight though seeing as I’m currently some way away I’ll be relying on reports from the likes of you to uplift my mood.

For someone who is not religious, you do seem to ask a lot of him!

To cheer you up, you can get 13-2 on Derby winning tomorrow

I still remain convinced that "Big Pharma" have found the solutions to several of these dread conditions, but reason that they can make more money out of selling "repeat prescriptions" than selling a "cure", so somewhere in a big warehouse in Area 51 is a cache of cures for cancer, diabetes, sickle cell, leukemia, ebola, leprosy etc

There you go...already feeling better...thought it was this evening.

He moves in mysterious ways!

You have a very jaundiced view of the world, GP...unfortunately you may be right!

[mistaram]

What is voluntary and what goes to the poor and needy and what is compulsory?

MA I was replying to Geoff about Zacat a voluntary donation Islamists make to help the poor and needy It is compulsory in countries like Syria ,bit like our VAT ha