OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Happy new year Lord Adonis

[swaledale]

I’ll forgive you your Freudian slip there, and point out the weakness in your argument. It’s well known through modern history that folk become more ‘conservative’, less tolerant and more cautious of the uncertain as they get older so tomorrow’s ‘aging racist conservative nationalists’ are already amongst us, masquerading momentarily as today’s young sold-a-dream idealists. Not saying that such progression through time is a good or bad thing, but it is a fact. Where do you think all the Leave voters came from? Well a good proportion (maybe God save us,37%) were Remainers as bright eyed twenty somethings in the 1975 referendum

Ah yes Eurosceptic well spotted.

Its true that people get they tend get more conservative as they get older, though obviously this is a generalisation and peoples experiences do tend to shape their later lives the more people travel and understand that isolation is counter productive, then the more they understand what a mistake Brexit is.

So whilst the generation that follows will be more conservative, they will also be less conservative than the current one.

There is of course one flaw in your argument, the result of the referendum was very close,, just over 52% of those that voted, were in favour and that out of 37% of those who could vote.

Now its a fair assumption that more of the older population voted and that more of those who wanted Brexit voted, so that does indicate that there are in fact a large number of the older generation who aren't conservative eurosceptics. In fact if only more of the younger generation (the one's you inaccurately describe as "sold-a-dream") had voted, then the result would more than likely been a solid remain!

So Looking at the facts, I'd say that there is no weakness in my argument, at least not along the lines you have described.

By the way I would say that free movement in europe, being able to work, study or live anywhere within the EU was not a dream, but reality for many! As were the many economic benefits that they and of course the rest of the UK enjoyed, still I'm sure the left behind who voted will enjoy working in the fields picking vegetables, working in cafes and hotels and bars, in care homes and in factories as they live the Brexit dream!

[swaledale]

It's not worth wasting your time arguing with the bore, continually ranting and raving like he/she does. Some people have nothing better to do with their lives. I just look at the length of yet another tirade, laugh and move on to the next rational post.

Ah you talk about rational, yet you ignore the pure facts I have posted? How is pointing out the extent of the lies, broken promises and falsehoods which were Brexiteers have said, ranting? I have refrained (until you post like a ****) from insults or name calling, just posted actual facts.

Its a little pathetic, a bit like Trump supporters believing he "won" the election! In the fact of utter stupidity, I would say I am resisting the urge to laugh and calmly pointing out a few truths. I do realise that these facts are uncomfortable, but thats your problem not mine.

As always with those who support Brexit, ignore the reality, believe in some clearly false premise and pretend everything is wonderful!

I've still yet to see from you or indeed any other supporter of Brexit, one single positive of leaving the EU, I mean an actual real factual positive, not some airy fairy concept, which even you or they don't actually believe.

[swaledale]

here some more Tory Brexit promises to watch out for and see if they are kept!

the Tory "Out" campaigners promise: "Fuel bills will be lower for everyone."

Currently, VAT of five per cent adds over £60 to domestic dual-fuel bills.


It says: "We believe working people will be better off if we leave the EU.

"The NHS will be stronger, class sizes smaller, and taxes lower.

"We’ll have more money to spend on our priorities, wages will be higher and fuel bills will be lower.

"Leaving the EU is a great opportunity for us to take back control of our borders, our economy and our democracy."

The Tories introduced VAT on energy bills in 1993, six months after "Black Wednesday" when Britain crashed out of the European ERM currency union.

[Ram59]

You nearly got me there Swale, 3 medium length posts instead of 1 long one. lol.

[MadAmster]

Overview of changes regarding UK to NL travel and goods.

Travel and accommodation in the UK for Dutch people
Passport required if traveling to UK from 1 October 2021
From 1 October 2021, you can only travel to the UK with a passport. An identity card (ID card) is then no longer valid. If you live in the UK on or before December 31, 2020, you can use your ID card until the end of 2025.

Find out which travel document you need for traveling to the UK .
See which countries belong to the United Kingdom (UK) .

No visa required for short stays in UK
From 2021, you do not need a visa for a short stay (maximum 6 months) in the UK.

Border checks may take longer from 2021
From 2021, your trip to the UK may take longer as you can be checked by customs upon arrival in the UK. If you travel back to the Netherlands from the UK, customs can check your baggage in the Netherlands. Find out about border controls when traveling back and forth to the UK .

Bringing pets to and from the UK
Are you traveling from the UK to the Netherlands with your pet from 1 January 2021? Then different rules apply.
Read more about bringing pets from NL to the UK .

No international driving license required for short stays in UK
From 2021, you can drive with a valid Dutch driving license (English) for a short stay in the UK . An international driver's license is not required. The British government has announced this.
Health insurance
EHIC valid in any case if your stay continues in 2021
Are you in the UK for a short stay by 31 December 2020 at the latest? Then you are still insured for emergency care during your entire stay on the basis of your EHIC. This also applies if your stay continues in 2021. This exception will end if you travel to another country after the transition period.

From 2021: EHIC may no longer be valid, but entitled to urgent healthcare
The UK and the EU have agreements on access to healthcare for short stays. If you are going to the UK for a short time, for example as a tourist, you are entitled to emergency healthcare there. The government is now examining how these agreements will be further elaborated. Once more is known about this, it will also be known whether you can continue to use your EHIC in the UK. From 2021 you can in any case take out travel insurance including medical costs to ensure more health insurance.


Permit required for taking protected plants and animals
Other rules for the import and export of protected animals and plants
Do you want to import or export protected animals or plants from or to the UK? The rules have changed from 1 January 2021. This also applies to items made of protected species, such as clothing. The protected species are on the so - called CITES list .


Documents required for import and export of protected animals and plants
From 2021, you will often need (other) documents than those you needed for them. Request this in time. Some animals and plants are prohibited from importing or exporting from or to countries outside the EU. From January 2021, these bans will also apply to the UK.


Calls and internet in the UK may be more expensive from 2021
Calls and internet in the UK may be more expensive from January 1, 2021 . Telecom companies can charge higher rates for roaming. Check your provider's rates shortly before your trip to the UK.

Online purchases from UK web shop: possible pay import duties
You may be required to pay VAT and import duties from 1 January 2021 if you make an online purchase from a UK web shop. This depends on the purchase value. You must pay VAT in the Netherlands for products that cost € 22 or more. You also have to pay import duties if the purchase value is higher than
€ 150.


Different rules for bringing food and flowers from the UK
From January 2021, the rules for bringing food or other agricultural products from the UK back to the Netherlands will change. The options for taking food products with you are much more limited than before. This is true for:

meat;
dairy;
vegetables;
Fruit.


Bring less liquor and cigarettes from the UK
From 1 January 2021, you will be allowed to bring fewer cigarettes, drinks or other excise goods from the UK.

Those ar the rules for us cloggies.

[MadAmster]

Just a few specifics......

Duty free. Citizens travelling back to the EU from the UK have a greater tax free allowance than people travelling to the UK from the EU.

Buying online. If I buy online from a UK seller, I pay no VAT on goods with a value of €22 or less. Over €22 I pay 21% VAT on the combined cost of the item and the postage costs. I pay no import duty on goods worth €150 or less.
If I sell to a UK buyer, the buyer now pays VAT on everything, cost price plus postage. Not sure on import duty.

I will still buy 45s I want from UK sellers but the chance of selling to a UK buyer has greatly diminished due to the extra tax/duty costs.

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh no, Owens upset and coming to get us,

Hark at her.................

Even the Guardian had enough of this muppet lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFol...el=ExArmyPaz49

[Andy_Faber]

Just a few specifics......

Duty free. Citizens travelling back to the EU from the UK have a greater tax free allowance than people travelling to the UK from the EU.

Buying online. If I buy online from a UK seller, I pay no VAT on goods with a value of €22 or less. Over €22 I pay 21% VAT on the combined cost of the item and the postage costs. I pay no import duty on goods worth €150 or less.
If I sell to a UK buyer, the buyer now pays VAT on everything, cost price plus postage. Not sure on import duty.

I will still buy 45s I want from UK sellers but the chance of selling to a UK buyer has greatly diminished due to the extra tax/duty costs.

agree on that (the numbers), having been discussing with a rock'n'roll collector/trader. However, the EU issue is dwarfed by the taxes/duties recently applicable to purchases from USA which have, to quote my pal, 'gone supersonic'

[Andy_Faber]

Ah yes Eurosceptic well spotted.

Its true that people get they tend get more conservative as they get older, though obviously this is a generalisation and peoples experiences do tend to shape their later lives the more people travel and understand that isolation is counter productive, then the more they understand what a mistake Brexit is.

So whilst the generation that follows will be more conservative, they will also be less conservative than the current one.

There is of course one flaw in your argument, the result of the referendum was very close,, just over 52% of those that voted, were in favour and that out of 37% of those who could vote.

Now its a fair assumption that more of the older population voted and that more of those who wanted Brexit voted, so that does indicate that there are in fact a large number of the older generation who aren't conservative eurosceptics. In fact if only more of the younger generation (the one's you inaccurately describe as "sold-a-dream") had voted, then the result would more than likely been a solid remain!

So Looking at the facts, I'd say that there is no weakness in my argument, at least not along the lines you have described.

By the way I would say that free movement in europe, being able to work, study or live anywhere within the EU was not a dream, but reality for many! As were the many economic benefits that they and of course the rest of the UK enjoyed, still I'm sure the left behind who voted will enjoy working in the fields picking vegetables, working in cafes and hotels and bars, in care homes and in factories as they live the Brexit dream!

thanks for a reasoned, insult free response for a change (although I do see you've reverted to type elsewhere)

Yes there are weaknesses in your argument, the main one (see your second para) being that you assume the population will continue along what for the past few decades appeared superficially to be a more tolerant, inclusive path. My observation is that a lot of folk have either become less tolerant in recent years, or they never were tolerant and have been emboldened by the emergence of others like them mainly on social media. Its an observation not a rallying call.

In one respect, you are spot-on, if more of the 'sold a dreams' had actually voted Remain instead of, for instance, chosen to go to Glastonbury, waved a placard saying 'Vote Remain' and then NOT voted, we wouldn't be in this mess. Now, please tell me, who's being thicker, someone who voted Leave or someone with the power to stop them who didn't exercise that power? I think we've finally found your thick people Swale