OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

People voted Remain because:

Their Facebook friend said so.

They think that they would be deported because their Grandad came from abroad.

They think that Europe and EU are the same thing.

They think that it is an anti-racism vote.

They think that trade with EU members would stop.

They think that, despite globalisation, we will be "isolated".

They think that anyone voting leave are "little Englanders"

They think that the EU has better employment rights that they'd lose.

...I could go on.

It's easy to pick out ignorant reasons for people to vote how they did, but democracy gives everyone that right. You can't just imply ignorance on one side, it is both sides.

Too subtle if you are trying to draw a response from The Kraken

[ramAnag]

People voted Remain because:

Their Facebook friend said so.

They think that they would be deported because their Grandad came from abroad.

They think that Europe and EU are the same thing.

They think that it is an anti-racism vote.

They think that trade with EU members would stop.

They think that, despite globalisation, we will be "isolated".

They think that anyone voting leave are "little Englanders"

They think that the EU has better employment rights that they'd lose.

...I could go on.

It's easy to pick out ignorant reasons for people to vote how they did, but democracy gives everyone that right. You can't just imply ignorance on one side, it is both sides.

Of course there is ignorance on both sides Adi, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that only the Brexit side of the argument is going to actively damage our country.
The only thing that makes May’s ‘deal’ look acceptable is that it is immeasurably better than the the prospect of a ‘no-deal’, extreme Brexit which just about everyone - idiots and extremists apart - now agree would be catastrophic.
I don’t pretend to be any sort of expert, but I like to take into account the views of those who actually are, whether that be about politics or football. According to the likes of Bernard Jenkin and Rees-Mogg the Bank of England are involved in some sort of anti-Brexit conspiracy. Personally I think that’s bonkers nonsense and when the current Chancellor, the Governor of the BoE and numerous leading business figures all tell us that we’ll be better off without Brexit I for one am inclined to take notice.

My personal opinion, and that is all it is, is that a second Referendum is becoming increasingly inevitable. A ‘no deal’ Brexit will not get through Parliament (thank God) and it looks ever less likely that May’s deal will be accepted. That leaves one alternative - a second Referendum - which might just be why she is currently spending every waking hour trying to influence public opinion...after all, if this is to be decided by Parliament alone, why bother with the public?

[Manofpride]

Should there be another way of voting in the future? best of 3 or perhaps the best of 5 or 9.

[ramAnag]

Should there be another way of voting in the future? best of 3 or perhaps the best of 5 or 9.

How about, via ‘informed decision’ rather than for a ‘land of milk and honey’ portrayed by a pack of lies?
Come on MoP...even you must recognise that however flawed the EU is - and I accept it is - we are on the brink of the greatest act of national self harm in living history.

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA said "A ‘no deal’ Brexit will not get through Parliament (thank God)"

Unless I am much mistaken a "no deal Brexit" will not have to go through parliament, it would simply be the inevitable outcome if the deal on the table or any other subsequent version thereof is not agreed by the drop dead date. We have given notice that we wish to leave, if we cannot agree the basis, that does not mean we won't leave, we will simply leave with no agreement when the date passes.

Parliament may try its level best to ensure some sort of deal is cobbled together, but right now,parliament as a collective bunch of self obsessed political opportunists seem quite capable of not agreeing anything. From the vantage point of an outsider it must be like watching a Japanese warrior committing ritual hari kiri. It is oft said that you cannot trust the ignorant masses to make such an important decision, but equally you cannot trust politicians to put national decisions ahead of naked self interest.

The most strange thing of all is that, should the opposition or the governing party chose to deny any deal so as to force an election to gain either a majority in parliament or a majority in their own party, the mess will still be there to clear up and they will be stuck with doing it - which they are all equally ill equipped to do. So they may be power grabbing grubby *******s, but what when they get that power: they are no better able to sort the problem out than the incumbents. It seems largely insoluble

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we should abandon the leave strategy, not because I do not have strong reservations about the direction Brussels is heading in, but because we have a deal noone likes, we have a huge problem leaving with no deal and the EU can sit there and smile leaving us between Scylla and Charybdis. Two equally unacceptable options to a "swing minority" that can destroy the best intentions of anyone.

But for those still keen on Brexit, I heard some fun statistics yesterday. EU migration is falling (no surprise) BUT non EU migration is rising. Eastern Europeans are being replaced by "brown faces": what is it they call it - "The law of unintended consequences"? T^he racist "swing minority" need to take a look at what they have achieved by trying to "get those foreigners out of our jobs". it looks like one minority got us into this mess, and another minority are digging the grave

[mistaram]

I see they are already talking of letting 16year olds in the inevitable second referendum. Talk about making sure remains win

[Geoff Parkstone]

I wonder, should this now reach a seemingly inevitable stalemate, how much money we have pissed away on this entire exercise - as its a popular measure, how many hospitals could have been built with it. The EU now have us by the balls and will continue to up the pressure of squeeze knowing that we cannot organise a piss up in a brewery.

[ramAnag]

I see they are already talking of letting 16year olds in the inevitable second referendum. Talk about making sure remains win

Reckon if you’re considered old enough to fight for your country you’re old enough to vote for the people who send you to war, mista.
My preference for voting would be 17...that’s the age they can join up in the U.S. although curiously they can’t drink alcohol till 21 and being old enough to drive varies from 14-17 in different states I think.
Anyway it’s their future that Brexit is likely to screw up...so why not?

[AdiSalisbury]

In 5 years time we'll all look back and wonder what the fuss was all about, then the now 16 year olds can vote all they want.

[Andy_Faber]

I wonder, should this now reach a seemingly inevitable stalemate, how much money we have pissed away on this entire exercise - as its a popular measure, how many hospitals could have been built with it. The EU now have us by the balls and will continue to up the pressure of squeeze knowing that we cannot organise a piss up in a brewery.

I get the feeling that, regardless of any piss up/brewery issues, we have also been too polite in our negotiations. As you know (mainly because Ramanag keeps reminding everyone) I'm a remainer who was/is committed to making the best possible effort to get a good Leave deal once that had been decided, but I was expecting some steel to be shown, in public as well as behind closed doors. I think the UK side have completely underestimated the solidarity shown by the EU members, and once Divide And Conquer became clearly an unworkable approach, we seemed to pretty much give up