OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry MoP but I do get tired of Brexiteers moaning about how all this is a threat to our democracy.
Democracy is defined as being a state or organisation which is governed by the wishes of the majority of its members.
Brexit has never had the support of a majority of the electorate...that is a straightforward fact.
Is Democracy worth preserving if the electorate is voting on evidence provided by liars and electoral rule breakers who abuse democracy?
If Democracy is so central to the Brexiteer cause...why do they object so strongly to a second and infinitely better informed referendum? Surely that would be a greater exercise in democracy and in any case, we live in a Parliamentary Democracy so why not just let Parliament decide?

Not this again!

No greater liar than George Osbourne and his 'Emergency Budget', the word on the wireless today from across the political spectrum appears to be that the whole political class needs overhauling, its just one big plague pit.

I will give a nod however to Labour's Lisa Nandy who appears unlike the rest to be able to offer some kind of balance to the argument, not sure if you've seen her amongst all the self serving masses

[ramAnag]

Not this again!

No greater liar than George Osbourne and his 'Emergency Budget', the word on the wireless today from across the political spectrum appears to be that the whole political class needs overhauling, its just one big plague pit.

I will give a nod however to Labour's Lisa Nandy who appears unlike the rest to be able to offer some kind of balance to the argument, not sure if you've seen her amongst all the self serving masses

Well yes, ‘this again!’ I didn’t bring it up but until the questions are answered - they never are - it’ll continue to raise its tiresome head.
Do wholeheartedly agree about the need for complete political overhaul though.

[Andy_Faber]

Well yes, ‘this again!’ I didn’t bring it up but until the questions are answered - they never are - it’ll continue to raise its tiresome head.
Do wholeheartedly agree about the need for complete political overhaul though.

Our shower couldn't decide between a bap, a cob and a roll at the mo. Set against that I have a friend in Italy who is bemoaning the fact that for the first time in decades their parliament ARE making some decisions!

[AdiSalisbury]

This isn't an attack or aimed RA, but what I am bored of hearing from those who think they are better informed, take your pick as to your favourite.

Standard boring remoaner response toolkit...

You were lied to.
It was only advisory.
You didn't have a plan.
Someone who has no influence over your vote, broke some rule, making your vote invalid.
It wasn't really a majority.
Those who didn't vote, wanted to remain.
Blah blah blah, I know **** all and don't even have any idea what the EU is or anything about economics, but I'm going to belittle your intelligence, because I'm brainwashed by my own propaganda.

[Andy_Faber]

This isn't an attack or aimed RA, but what I am bored of hearing from those who think they are better informed, take your pick as to your favourite.

Standard boring remoaner response toolkit...

You were lied to.
It was only advisory.
You didn't have a plan.
Someone who has no influence over your vote, broke some rule, making your vote invalid.
It wasn't really a majority.
Those who didn't vote, wanted to remain.
Blah blah blah, I know **** all and don't even have any idea what the EU is or anything about economics, but I'm going to belittle your intelligence, because I'm brainwashed by my own propaganda.

I think in retrospect, Remainers should have been given two votes each in recognition of their greater insight, we wouldn't have this issue then

[ramAnag]

This isn't an attack or aimed RA, but what I am bored of hearing from those who think they are better informed, take your pick as to your favourite.

Standard boring remoaner response toolkit...

You were lied to.
It was only advisory.
You didn't have a plan.
Someone who has no influence over your vote, broke some rule, making your vote invalid.
It wasn't really a majority.
Those who didn't vote, wanted to remain.
Blah blah blah, I know **** all and don't even have any idea what the EU is or anything about economics, but I'm going to belittle your intelligence, because I'm brainwashed by my own propaganda.

Not much arguing with the first five though is there?
For what it’s worth I don’t for one minute think I know more than you MoP...I do however believe that a very significant number of ‘Leavers’ were totally misled...not least by a man - Farage - who has done very nicely at ‘feathering his own nest’ out of both the EU and Brexit.

[Geoff Parkstone]

RA can we just tidy up one thing. You do not accept the referendum outcome as less than a majority of those eligible to vote supported it. That much is clear.

You also say that in a parliamentary democracy why not let parliament decide. Now, given that Labour are coalescing as the party of remain, brexit will have to be achieved by the tories pulling together.

So parliamentary majority will attain brexit, ie the tories plus a bit od DUP. yet those parties received less than 50% of the popular vote. In fact I'd venture that no parliamentary majority hasreflected the view of a majority of the electorate in my lifetime.

So why is it alright for a minority elected government to make a binding decision, but not a minority voted referendum to inform that decision?

[mistaram]

Sorry MoP but I do get tired of Brexiteers moaning about how all this is a threat to our democracy.
Democracy is defined as being a state or organisation which is governed by the wishes of the majority of its members.
Brexit has never had the support of a majority of the electorate...that is a straightforward fact.
Is Democracy worth preserving if the electorate is voting on evidence provided by liars and electoral rule breakers who abuse democracy?
If Democracy is so central to the Brexiteer cause...why do they object so strongly to a second and infinitely better informed referendum? Surely that would be a greater exercise in democracy and in any case, we live in a Parliamentary Democracy so why not just let Parliament decide?

RA But surprised you think we still live in a democrasy In fact I think the referendum is the only thing that has ever been the remotest thing democratic in my lifetime A general Election is a complete joke it's always fought over the same 38 marginal seats Where's the democracy when you can live in a constituency all your life and never be represented by the party you support They brought in elections for Mayors to make it more democratic you vote for him/her Then they choose a cabinet to make all the decisions that you're not allowed to vote for The most important people in government are ministers they make most of the decisions do we get a say Remember in 2010 the first thing Cameron did was later the term of office from 4yrs to 5yrs did we get a say We vote in our local MP they can't really represent your opinions because anything controversial and they whipped into voting how they are told that
Churchil said Democracy is the most valued and also the Vaguest of political terms in the modern world. How right he was that's why I don't vote

[Manofpride]

I'm sticking with No deal is better than a bad deal, and what we have is a bad deal! We should leave without a deal and give the winning voters what they were promised. Out on the 29th no matter what!

[ramAnag]

RA can we just tidy up one thing. You do not accept the referendum outcome as less than a majority of those eligible to vote supported it. That much is clear.

You also say that in a parliamentary democracy why not let parliament decide. Now, given that Labour are coalescing as the party of remain, brexit will have to be achieved by the tories pulling together.

So parliamentary majority will attain brexit, ie the tories plus a bit od DUP. yet those parties received less than 50% of the popular vote. In fact I'd venture that no parliamentary majority hasreflected the view of a majority of the electorate in my lifetime.

So why is it alright for a minority elected government to make a binding decision, but not a minority voted referendum to inform that decision?

Geoff...you’re almost right. I do not accept the referendum result for the reason you give, but I also do not accept the referendum result because the lies that were told invalidate the whole notion of the integrity of democracy imo.

We do live in a Parliamentary democracy, and I accept it’s failings as outlined by mista. I too have little faith in many politicians but I do believe they know infinitely more than Joe Public when it comes to such specialist economic issues as EU membership.

Wanting Parliament to decide this issue is not something that needs to be done along Party lines and never, imo, has been.
Indeed if, rather than ever having the ridiculous Referendum, Parliament had simply set time aside - just a fraction of that subsequently wasted - for a thorough debate on the subject with expert input from those such as business people, bankers, financiers, health officials etc and then had a free vote on the subject the whole matter could probably have been done and dusted within a fortnight.

That way we are not talking about the decision of a ‘minority government’...which it actually wasn’t anyway at the time the Referendum was called, that has only been the case since May’s half baked General Election which led directly to the DUP having a totally disproportionate say in UK politics...but the decision of Parliament itself, the sovereignty of which I though was what the Brexiteers claimed a large part of this to be about.

P.S. Fortunately that horse has bolted, MoP and a ‘no deal’ Brexit was never what the 37% voted for...the concept hadn’t even been mentioned back in 2016.