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Thread: OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

  1. #4851
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistaram View Post
    Forget the cricket get the score that matters Bristol Cty 1 Derby County 2 Derbys goals Bennett and Anya Proper re we serve side Michell McDonald Mitchel- Lawson ,Knight all played Dowell came on for last 25mins Martin once again played well no Waghorn Marriott Lawrence Evans, Keogh Bogle Davies Malone Roos Lowe Huddleston Shinnie Thorne
    Basically, the players that didn't play in the rain abandoned game the day before. I haven't taken the time to check the strengths of the 2 Bristol sides and, therefore, draw no conclusions from either "game".

    Happy for Anya. Is he back, properly? Also chuffed for my "love child", Mason Bennett. What a cracker that was. 25 yards out and giving the keeper no chance whatsoever.

    A positive start to pre season but we have to remember that it is only a start and no more than that.

  2. #4852
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    [QUOTE=swaledale;39269688]
    Quote Originally Posted by mistaram View Post

    The Electoral Commission said it had grounds to suspect that some of the £8m with which he funded the unofficial Leave.EU campaign came from an offshore company.

    The regulator says a “number of criminal offences” may have been committed; the National Crime Agency is on the trail. A graver allegation is being considered: whether Mr Banks was not the source of the funding for the Leave.EU campaign.
    What about the Govt sponsored Remain propaganda delivered to millions of households? Did the cost of that go against the Remain budget?

  3. #4853
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    MP's are obliged to take account of the whole of their electorate, given that just over 48% voted to remain, by not accepting a hard Brexit, which would be disastrous, they are taking into account those that voted to remain and seek a Brexit that is less damaging to the country as a whole, thats what MP's are supposed to do, lets face it if MP's just acted on the basis of what constituents wanted, then the country would be in an even worse state.

    I know to those who are shall we say less able to understand the nuance of real life, that populist politicians with simple answers are appealing, lets face it an awful lot of Germans voted for Hitler, when he promised simple answers, but then found out what his real agenda was - its touching that you seem to think Farage with mysterious funding from dubious sources and backed by powerful right wing figures who certainly don't give a damn about the "average person" is the man doing what you want, talk about a Turkey voting for Xmas!
    The first para is an interesting point and one that many MPs have to deal with. Not easy to resolve morally for them.
    However this halfway house situation is a mess. How many have put the 48% ahead of the 52%? Should they equally blindly ignore the 52%? We have a democracy and the majority voted to leave. Trying to find this middle ground where both leavers and remainers are happy, has proved to be impossible. Surely we now revert back to the simple question on the ballot paper. Leave or stay.

    The second para is a mess.

  4. #4854
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    "The first para is an interesting point and one that many MPs have to deal with. Not easy to resolve morally for them."

    I am not sure that the words MPs and morally can coexist in one sentence without the existence of a negative.

    "We have a democracy and the majority voted to leave."

    Ah now of course you realise that a majority did not vote for Brexit, so the MPs have no obligation to implement the needs of the Brexit camp. Oh God, I must have caught RA-itis over the weekend

  5. #4855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    "The first para is an interesting point and one that many MPs have to deal with. Not easy to resolve morally for them."

    I am not sure that the words MPs and morally can coexist in one sentence without the existence of a negative.

    "We have a democracy and the majority voted to leave."

    Ah now of course you realise that a majority did not vote for Brexit, so the MPs have no obligation to implement the needs of the Brexit camp. Oh God, I must have caught RA-itis over the weekend
    You Mr P are a trouble maker
    Don't get him started.

  6. #4856
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryRam View Post
    The first para is an interesting point and one that many MPs have to deal with. Not easy to resolve morally for them.
    However this halfway house situation is a mess. How many have put the 48% ahead of the 52%? Should they equally blindly ignore the 52%? We have a democracy and the majority voted to leave. Trying to find this middle ground where both leavers and remainers are happy, has proved to be impossible. Surely we now revert back to the simple question on the ballot paper. Leave or stay.

    The second para is a mess.
    You have a point, BUT, nowhere did it say a Hard Brexit, not even the Leave side said we should leave without a deal, they said it would be easy to get the deal we wanted, plus lots of other lies as well. As for the Remain Propaganda, mm you mean an accurate portrayal of what leaving the EU would mean for the UK - yes somewhat overblown, but the negative effects are already being felt and we haven't left yet!

    Its ironic as well, that May went for an election so she could guarantee Brexit with a working majority, BUT that didn't happen, given that there is apparently a will of the people for Brexit, you'd think they Tories who triggered it would have romped home.

    Then in the EU elections remain parties got 10% more votes than Brexit parties another indication that perhaps the majority don't want to drive off the cliff edge?

    Even more irony, but for the hard right hard Brexiteer MP's we would actually have left the EU by now and be negotiating the actual deal, to date all the discussion has been about the withdrawal agreement. SO its actually those MP's who support Brexit that have blocked it happening thus far, because of their adherence that it must be a hard Brexit.

    Leave the EU by all means but lets have a plan as to what we do other than becoming a vassel state of the US and China, how does that benefit the UK?

  7. #4857
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    You have a point, BUT, nowhere did it say a Hard Brexit, not even the Leave side said we should leave without a deal, they said it would be easy to get the deal we wanted, plus lots of other lies as well. As for the Remain Propaganda, mm you mean an accurate portrayal of what leaving the EU would mean for the UK - yes somewhat overblown, but the negative effects are already being felt and we haven't left yet!

    Its ironic as well, that May went for an election so she could guarantee Brexit with a working majority, BUT that didn't happen, given that there is apparently a will of the people for Brexit, you'd think they Tories who triggered it would have romped home.

    Then in the EU elections remain parties got 10% more votes than Brexit parties another indication that perhaps the majority don't want to drive off the cliff edge?

    Even more irony, but for the hard right hard Brexiteer MP's we would actually have left the EU by now and be negotiating the actual deal, to date all the discussion has been about the withdrawal agreement. SO its actually those MP's who support Brexit that have blocked it happening thus far, because of their adherence that it must be a hard Brexit.

    Leave the EU by all means but lets have a plan as to what we do other than becoming a vassel state of the US and China, how does that benefit the UK?
    Agreed, maybe leave without a deal was not clear. I think most Brexiteers would prefer some sort of trade deal with the EU. That is still possible but they have us over a barrel with the way we have to leave. I would like a trade deal with EU but it would be nice to be able to at least talk formally to others about trade deals.
    We could go on forever with lies on both sides.. Remain had it to win but arrogance lost it for them. Bit like May and the election.. It was the right thing to do, Labour in a mess, she should have absolutely cleaned up.. However arrogance again lost the day and it turned into a disaster for her and the Torres. I really believe the British public have finally woken up to these self serving politicians.. How many tomes have they spouted, ‘we are listening’ only to ignore again public opinion.. Okay by me.. Perhaps just perhaps we might get some decent ones next time. All bar a few a dead men walking at the moment.

    The whole EU debate has been hijacked by the trade issue, what happened to all the other issues that people voted on? Controlling boarders (this does not mean no immigration), the EU super state that is not democratic and is on an expansion programme that scares me more than staying.. Turkey? No I hear you say, will never happen, we have a veto.. Pressure is applied and govts trade off issues. The European army!! All of a sudden that is on the agenda. It all creeps up on us, just like everything else EU wise. I seem to remember voting to join the EEC, not what we have today.
    Europe has never had the greatest history of stability has it.. Some of it very recent history.. How long before all this pile of poo falls apart and we are fighting each other? We are just too different, simple fact. We have never got on. Powered keg.
    Last edited by AngryRam; 16-07-2019 at 07:32 PM.

  8. #4858
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryRam View Post
    Agreed, maybe leave without a deal was not clear. I think most Brexiteers would prefer some sort of trade deal with the EU. That is still possible but they have us over a barrel with the way we have to leave. I would like a trade deal with EU but it would be nice to be able to at least talk formally to others about trade deals.
    We could go on forever with lies on both sides.. Remain had it to win but arrogance lost it for them. Bit like May and the election.. It was the right thing to do, Labour in a mess, she should have absolutely cleaned up.. However arrogance again lost the day and it turned into a disaster for her and the Torres. I really believe the British public have finally woken up to these self serving politicians.. How many tomes have they spouted, ‘we are listening’ only to ignore again public opinion.. Okay by me.. Perhaps just perhaps we might get some decent ones next time. All bar a few a dead men walking at the moment.

    The whole EU debate has been hijacked by the trade issue, what happened to all the other issues that people voted on? Controlling boarders (this does not mean no immigration), the EU super state that is not democratic and is on an expansion programme that scares me more than staying.. Turkey? No I hear you say, will never happen, we have a veto.. Pressure is applied and govts trade off issues. The European army!! All of a sudden that is on the agenda. It all creeps up on us, just like everything else EU wise. I seem to remember voting to join the EEC, not what we have today.
    Europe has never had the greatest history of stability has it.. Some of it very recent history.. How long before all this pile of poo falls apart and we are fighting each other? We are just too different, simple fact. We have never got on. Powered keg.
    We have control of borders, the fact we choose not to is another point - the number of non EU illegal migrants and the fact that **** all is done about them demonstrates that point only too well - plus leaving the Eu doesn't negate the requirement we have for labour.

    We are a major player in the EU at the moment with a powerful veto, on matters such as the euro, joining any EU army etc. Turkey won't happen in the foreseeable future, BUT yes maybe in 10 to 20 years it may, so what? Whats the issue if it meets the requirements?

    In point of fact the EEC was a political union, heath stated this openly, it was designed to secure stability in european post WW2 and in fact hasn't done a bad job for over 50 years.

    We are not that different at all, in fact we are probably closer to the Germans in many ways, not least ancestry of some, thats just "little englander" island mentality talking, failing to recognise that toigether the european countries are stronger, both politically and economically - your fearing the wrong people, its the Chinese, India and Russia that you should be fearing, economically and politically they are gaining the upperhand, yet apparently you would rather be in hoc to them than closely related people in europe?

    As for how the EU will develop, well these things are cyclical, the balance of power changes, peoples views change and surely its better to be part of the EU and have influence with our most important economic and political allies than to be on the outside.

    Lastly take a long hard look at those who promote brexit, what are their interests? Not yours not mine, they are wealthy enough to be unaffected by the economic chaos that will ensure - what was it Rees-Mogg said, it may take 50 years to repair the damage of brexit? Of course it wont be him that suffers, he has already moved the HQ of his hedge fund to Dublin!

    Is the Eu perfect? No, but I'd prefer wars to be political rather than actual and politicians are politicians the world over, but any human endeavour is flawed, thats just how it is.

  9. #4859
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    We have control of borders, the fact we choose not to is another point - the number of non EU illegal migrants and the fact that **** all is done about them demonstrates that point only too well - plus leaving the Eu doesn't negate the requirement we have for labour.

    We are a major player in the EU at the moment with a powerful veto, on matters such as the euro, joining any EU army etc. Turkey won't happen in the foreseeable future, BUT yes maybe in 10 to 20 years it may, so what? Whats the issue if it meets the requirements?

    In point of fact the EEC was a political union, heath stated this openly, it was designed to secure stability in european post WW2 and in fact hasn't done a bad job for over 50 years.

    We are not that different at all, in fact we are probably closer to the Germans in many ways, not least ancestry of some, thats just "little englander" island mentality talking, failing to recognise that toigether the european countries are stronger, both politically and economically - your fearing the wrong people, its the Chinese, India and Russia that you should be fearing, economically and politically they are gaining the upperhand, yet apparently you would rather be in hoc to them than closely related people in europe?

    As for how the EU will develop, well these things are cyclical, the balance of power changes, peoples views change and surely its better to be part of the EU and have influence with our most important economic and political allies than to be on the outside.

    Lastly take a long hard look at those who promote brexit, what are their interests? Not yours not mine, they are wealthy enough to be unaffected by the economic chaos that will ensure - what was it Rees-Mogg said, it may take 50 years to repair the damage of brexit? Of course it wont be him that suffers, he has already moved the HQ of his hedge fund to Dublin!

    Is the Eu perfect? No, but I'd prefer wars to be political rather than actual and politicians are politicians the world over, but any human endeavour is flawed, thats just how it is.
    It isn’t hard to argue the EU as a concept as you have described above.. A trade coalition of those countries in Western Europe has some power. Why are they bringing in poorer nations that just detract from that? So we have a principle and a reality that is slightly different.. My issue is tomorrow not so much today. How does the EU work going forward? vetos are in place but rarely used. How do vetos work when less stable countries and economies join? Where does EU expansion end? The structure we have today has to end and once Germany and France see some of their power starting to erode and others start causing trouble, they will drive through change IMO.
    People need to start thinking about the EU in the short, medium and long term, not just as it is today.. It’s gone in the wrong direction and continues in that direction.. I hear a lot about the future of our kids.. Exactly, we have an opportunity now to reset and then kick on. We won’t get it again. Is it a risk? Yes but as you rightly said every endeavour is flawed.
    We have to stop this infighting in order to move on, we’ve gone too far now. The 17.4 million have been quiet but if we end up never leaving they will be more than vocal. The whole thing is ****ed now.
    Are we more like the Germans? Genetically yes.. What about the rest of Europe? Who do people fall out with most? Often people who are just like them... ***Note before anyone says anything, I am nothing like RA thank god***

    We are not a world power now and will never get back to those heights.. You are right, we are seeing the end of the US position there and China will probably be next.. It cyclical, even the bloody Greeks had a go.
    Last edited by AngryRam; 17-07-2019 at 06:10 AM.

  10. #4860
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryRam View Post
    It isn’t hard to argue the EU as a concept as you have described above.. A trade coalition of those countries in Western Europe has some power. Why are they bringing in poorer nations that just detract from that? So we have a principle and a reality that is slightly different.. My issue is tomorrow not so much today. How does the EU work going forward? vetos are in place but rarely used. How do vetos work when less stable countries and economies join? Where does EU expansion end? The structure we have today has to end and once Germany and France see some of their power starting to erode and others start causing trouble, they will drive through change IMO.
    People need to start thinking about the EU in the short, medium and long term, not just as it is today.. It’s gone in the wrong direction and continues in that direction.. I hear a lot about the future of our kids.. Exactly, we have an opportunity now to reset and then kick on. We won’t get it again. Is it a risk? Yes but as you rightly said every endeavour is flawed.
    We have to stop this infighting in order to move on, we’ve gone too far now. The 17.4 million have been quiet but if we end up never leaving they will be more than vocal. The whole thing is ****ed now.
    Are we more like the Germans? Genetically yes.. What about the rest of Europe? Who do people fall out with most? Often people who are just like them... ***Note before anyone says anything, I am nothing like RA thank god***

    We are not a world power now and will never get back to those heights.. You are right, we are seeing the end of the US position there and China will probably be next.. It cyclical, even the bloody Greeks had a go.
    I don't disagree with much of that, BUT I still think its better to be in the tent pissing out, rather than outside the tent pissing in!

    I don't buy the disagreement with whatever nationality is inevitable, human beings are not stereotypes, they are different and not defined by race or nationality, theres an awful lot of Brits I'd be happy to extradite elsewhere in the world!

    Well those 17.4 million are kind of outnumbered by the 40 plus million and most are too apathetic to do anything, however, given the closeness of the vote and a lack of overwhelming mandate, then the solution has to be Brexit with as good a deal as we can get, those who want to cut the ties completely, firstly have to recognise that they have to compromise and secondly that economics trumps everything else, if the country is ****ed economically then noone wins (ell apart from the prominent wealthy Brexiteers who will clean up at everyone elses expense).

    Surely there must be some realism here? I don't get why people are happy to accept blind optimism I hear "it will work out it always does" and nothing to suggest that there is any reality about what the Uk post Brexit will be like - I'll give you a clue, even with a hard Brexit, it will be largely the same as now in that we will still comply with the vast majority of EU laws and regulations (we will have to to trade with our largest trading partner the EU), immigration will remain the same, we are at full employment and desperately short of labour in skilled and unskilled areas, its just we wont have a seat at the negotiating table, we wont have any influence but of course it will be worth it!

    Oh and for those who think trading under WTO rules is going to be fund, there are largely the same restrictions on state aid, subsidies etc, its just it will be the WTO in Geneva who will be calling the shots and not Brussels.

    Oh and did you know that the Government is making plans to destroy 5 million odd lamb carcasses in the vent of a no deal Brexit, because most is exported to the EU and we won't be able to do so without a trade deal! Meanwhile cheap food will flood in from the US and the rest of the world, unaffected by current standards on animal welfare, food hygiene and environmental regulations, whoopee I'll be so glad we get our sovereignty back!

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