OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I tend to agree with you there RA, the England and Union flags have been hijacked by what might be broadly described as undesirables. But is that any reason not to remain proud of your country and its rich heritage: forget the symbols, look at the achievements? Britain had its finest hour on the world stage (although not all would agree that the age of empire was not without moral questionability!) when a united nation from 1701 and 1922: since when we have become increasingly sidelined, especially post 1945, by the the new empires of USA and USSR and latterly the Chinese financial empire.

Its just a matter of evolution, we as a nation are no longer that important on the world stage, same with the French, historically powerhouses but now sidelined and replaced. Rather like the Greeks by the Romans etc. Its the way of things, civilisations come and go in significance.

I'm not quite sure what point I am trying to make here other than to say that the hijacking of a symbol should not prevent the respect for the history behind it. Too many people still think we are of international significance still, wrongly in my view, apart from being one of the nuclear powers; equally some people (you included sometimes) seem to be an apologist for the country at every opportunity.

Our history is littered with good (exploration, inventors, scientists etc) and bad (slave trade, mineral exploitation etc). We seem to have become apologists for the latter without getting any credit for the former. We are not responsible for the actions of our past countrymen, any more than today's Italians are responsible for the slavery during the Roman imperial era, the slaughter of people during "the games" and so on.

I'm still rambling, so I'll stop here :-)

I can’t think of a single occasion when I’ve been an ‘apologist for this country’, Parky.

There are times when I’m proud of our achievements and times when I’m ashamed of the behaviour of my ‘countrymen’ but I imagine that’s a relatively universal condition amongst thinking people of all nationalities.

[swaledale]

Whilst on the nationalistic front. The Jocks are a very proud folk and people take great delight in their kilts/bagpipes/tartan heritage.
So much so, that the SNP is dominant in Scotland.

Funny how anything England flag related is viewed as racist and right wing by many, including our own.
Perhaps not everyone is aware of SNP history and would folks be so fine with them in power?

Before you strat on the Scoys, you might want to consider the views and inded actions by some of the English establishment, some of them pretty high placed (and I'm not mentioning the Royals here but there is a story there as well) who were well disposed towards fascism and Hitler and would have welcomed him with open arms and opnely supported fascism in this country in the 30's.

You might also cast your research back in history and find that respected figures in english politics were more than happy to associate with less than reputable countries and foreign politicians where there was political advantage to be gained.

Indeed if the Brexit you crave is to be a success, then those who support it politically seem more than happy to forge trade deals (not necessarily advantageous to the UK politically or strategically in the long term) with countries who have totalitarian regimes, dodgy human rights records, dodgy environmental standards or are corrupt, fond of imprisoning and killing their own citizens, crack down on political opposition and free speech and so on, but apparently being an independent sovereign country will mean that we will ignore all these factors when we are enslaved to the likes of China, the USA, India and the Gulf States.

Double standards it seems when you fail to contextualize history but then thats par for the course for a neo fascist like yourself.

[swaledale]

I tend to agree with you there RA, the England and Union flags have been hijacked by what might be broadly described as undesirables. But is that any reason not to remain proud of your country and its rich heritage: forget the symbols, look at the achievements? Britain had its finest hour on the world stage (although not all would agree that the age of empire was not without moral questionability!) when a united nation from 1701 and 1922: since when we have become increasingly sidelined, especially post 1945, by the the new empires of USA and USSR and latterly the Chinese financial empire.

Its just a matter of evolution, we as a nation are no longer that important on the world stage, same with the French, historically powerhouses but now sidelined and replaced. Rather like the Greeks by the Romans etc. Its the way of things, civilisations come and go in significance.

I'm not quite sure what point I am trying to make here other than to say that the hijacking of a symbol should not prevent the respect for the history behind it. Too many people still think we are of international significance still, wrongly in my view, apart from being one of the nuclear powers; equally some people (you included sometimes) seem to be an apologist for the country at every opportunity.

Our history is littered with good (exploration, inventors, scientists etc) and bad (slave trade, mineral exploitation etc). We seem to have become apologists for the latter without getting any credit for the former. We are not responsible for the actions of our past countrymen, any more than today's Italians are responsible for the slavery during the Roman imperial era, the slaughter of people during "the games" and so on.

I'm still rambling, so I'll stop here :-)

A good post, it is the natural cycle that power and influence grow and wane and the fact is that the UK and indeed the USA are in decline and other countries such as China, India and the Gulf States are becoming more powerful, thats not to say we are insignificant, but harking back to wehn britannia rules the waves is neither helpful nor realistic, on our own we will be easy pickings as against being part of the Eu where weaahve more combined economic clout and more influence.

I don't agree that we are apologists for history, I don't see how recognising that past actions (such as the Irish potatoe famine) is wrong, whilst hindsight is always easy and it is pointless trying to apply todays standards of behaviour and morals to past era's, there is nothing wrong in having a little humility and acknowledging that there are parts of history that we aren't proud of.

We still do plenty of jingoistic flag waving and there is a significant amount of arrogant assumption that we are entitled to be a world power, which we are not either economically or militarily, politically we punch above our weight or we did until brexit consumed in its pointless and expensive sideshow.

After all the Uk's standing in the world is largely based on our sense of fair play and the fact that as a relatively tiny nation we Brits have had a significant influence on the world through our actions and inventions.

[ramAnag]

A good post, it is the natural cycle that power and influence grow and wane and the fact is that the UK and indeed the USA are in decline and other countries such as China, India and the Gulf States are becoming more powerful, thats not to say we are insignificant, but harking back to wehn britannia rules the waves is neither helpful nor realistic, on our own we will be easy pickings as against being part of the Eu where weaahve more combined economic clout and more influence.

I don't agree that we are apologists for history, I don't see how recognising that past actions (such as the Irish potatoe famine) is wrong, whilst hindsight is always easy and it is pointless trying to apply todays standards of behaviour and morals to past era's, there is nothing wrong in having a little humility and acknowledging that there are parts of history that we aren't proud of.

We still do plenty of jingoistic flag waving and there is a significant amount of arrogant assumption that we are entitled to be a world power, which we are not either economically or militarily, politically we punch above our weight or we did until brexit consumed in its pointless and expensive sideshow.

After all the Uk's standing in the world is largely based on our sense of fair play and the fact that as a relatively tiny nation we Brits have had a significant influence on the world through our actions and inventions.

Every once in a while someone ‘nails it’ on here. The last three paragraphs above are, imo, a perfect example of that.

Well put Swale, if only the more fervent Brexiteers would recognise such truth and sense and stop driving us towards an ever more isolated and uncertain future.

[MadAmster]

Interesting comment Swale, The UK isn't a world power, economically. They keep saying it's the 5th largest economy in the world. If that's not some kind of power, it doesn't bode well for the 200 odd countries not in the top 4........

[swaledale]

Interesting comment Swale, The UK isn't a world power, economically. They keep saying it's the 5th largest economy in the world. If that's not some kind of power, it doesn't bode well for the 200 odd countries not in the top 4........

As with all things statistical, you need to look at the context, the USA, China and India alone have more economic power than the rest of the world - if the US and China economies go sour, the whole world feels it, if the Uk's economy goes tits up, noone would notice or indeed give a damn!

[Trickytreesreds]

Before you strat on the Scoys, you might want to consider the views and inded actions by some of the English establishment, some of them pretty high placed (and I'm not mentioning the Royals here but there is a story there as well) who were well disposed towards fascism and Hitler and would have welcomed him with open arms and opnely supported fascism in this country in the 30's.

You might also cast your research back in history and find that respected figures in english politics were more than happy to associate with less than reputable countries and foreign politicians where there was political advantage to be gained.

Indeed if the Brexit you crave is to be a success, then those who support it politically seem more than happy to forge trade deals (not necessarily advantageous to the UK politically or strategically in the long term) with countries who have totalitarian regimes, dodgy human rights records, dodgy environmental standards or are corrupt, fond of imprisoning and killing their own citizens, crack down on political opposition and free speech and so on, but apparently being an independent sovereign country will mean that we will ignore all these factors when we are enslaved to the likes of China, the USA, India and the Gulf States.

Double standards it seems when you fail to contextualize history but then thats par for the course for a neo fascist like yourself.

Think you need to look up neo fascistyou patronising plank.

Neo-fascism - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-fascism
Neo-fascism. Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, populism, authoritarianism, nativism and opposition to immigration, as well as opposition to liberal democracy, parliamentarianism, Marxism, Communism and socialism. Allegations that a group is neo-fascist may be hotly contested, especially if the term is used as a political epithet.

Key words being
immigration- where have I ever said ban immigrants? I want a fair immigration system based on points, for who is acceptable. This would apply to everyone and not a freebie to anyone with an EU passport.
Democracy? Well that's a laugh is't it. Have a vote, doesn't mean anything. Not until it suits us anyway fascist lol
Authoritarian/anti parliamentarian? Really? Compared to the EU? LOL that one is a giggle.
Well I'm no marxist or communist, but anti socialist? No, not really it has it's places if kept in check.

You really are a ***** at times Swale.

My parents were a coal miner and a post lady. I myself was a miner for a time, before changing careers.
What exactly is your liberal stock? Do you live in a nice lovely place in the country like Ramanag?

[ramAnag]

Think you need to look up neo fascistyou patronising plank.

Neo-fascism - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-fascism
Neo-fascism. Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, populism, authoritarianism, nativism and opposition to immigration, as well as opposition to liberal democracy, parliamentarianism, Marxism, Communism and socialism. Allegations that a group is neo-fascist may be hotly contested, especially if the term is used as a political epithet.

Key words being
immigration- where have I ever said ban immigrants? I want a fair immigration system based on points, for who is acceptable. This would apply to everyone and not a freebie to anyone with an EU passport.
Democracy? Well that's a laugh is't it. Have a vote, doesn't mean anything. Not until it suits us anyway fascist lol
Authoritarian/anti parliamentarian? Really? Compared to the EU? LOL that one is a giggle.
Well I'm no marxist or communist, but anti socialist? No, not really it has it's places if kept in check.

You really are a ***** at times Swale.

My parents were a coal miner and a post lady. I myself was a miner for a time, before changing careers.
What exactly is your liberal stock? Do you live in a nice lovely place in the country like Ramanag?

Hang on.
What exactly has where I live got to to with anything?
What do you know about where I live anyway...apart from the fact that it’s somewhere in the Derbyshire Dales?

Your ongoing name calling quarrel with Swale has got nothing to do with me.
You know nothing whatsoever about my background which - like yours - is completely irrelevant and if you object to Swale’s portrayal of you as an ill informed right wing bigot then stop acting like one by, amongst other things, regularly using sources from the more right wing media sources to back up your, usually spurious, claims.

[swaledale]

Think you need to look up neo fascistyou patronising plank.

Neo-fascism - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-fascism
Neo-fascism. Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, populism, authoritarianism, nativism and opposition to immigration, as well as opposition to liberal democracy, parliamentarianism, Marxism, Communism and socialism. Allegations that a group is neo-fascist may be hotly contested, especially if the term is used as a political epithet.

Key words being
immigration- where have I ever said ban immigrants? I want a fair immigration system based on points, for who is acceptable. This would apply to everyone and not a freebie to anyone with an EU passport.
Democracy? Well that's a laugh is't it. Have a vote, doesn't mean anything. Not until it suits us anyway fascist lol
Authoritarian/anti parliamentarian? Really? Compared to the EU? LOL that one is a giggle.
Well I'm no marxist or communist, but anti socialist? No, not really it has it's places if kept in check.

You really are a ***** at times Swale.

My parents were a coal miner and a post lady. I myself was a miner for a time, before changing careers.
What exactly is your liberal stock? Do you live in a nice lovely place in the country like Ramanag?

Ah so your complaining that what you wanted, sovereignty of parliament is not what you want unless it does what you want? Yes you had a vote, but you and numerous others like you hadn't got a clue what you voted for, bit like that numpty on question time - "I voted leave because the EU requires bananas to be straight"


Your previous posts on here have demonstrated very clearly your neofascist viewpoint, stick to commenting on stuff you know about.

[AngryRam]

Ah so your complaining that what you wanted, sovereignty of parliament is not what you want unless it does what you want? Yes you had a vote, but you and numerous others like you hadn't got a clue what you voted for, bit like that numpty on question time - "I voted leave because the EU requires bananas to be straight"


Your previous posts on here have demonstrated very clearly your neofascist viewpoint, stick to commenting on stuff you know about.

FFS. Does not warrant much else.