OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39067222]

There are snakes and weasels in every party on both sides, it's the way of life. Everyone wants to feather their own nest and it'll never change! It's all about what's in it for me.
Are we any different?

Who are ‘we’ MoP? Of course there are ‘snakes and weasels’ throughout the Houses of Parliament, they’re politicians after all, but even you surely have to admit that that the current lot of extreme Brexiteers...Rees Mogg, Johnson, Fox, McVey etc...are proving to be not only utterly bonkers but similarly disloyal.

Regardless of one’s party politics it is now obvious that this country has been well and truly screwed by Tories from Cameron to Johnson and Gove to Rees Mogg putting Party and ego before the well being of the nation.

As I've said before, there are no clean hands

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-court-told


I think your party allegiance is colouring your view

[Andy_Faber]

this is a crisis born and bred within the extremes of the Tory Party.

I beg to differ. The root cause of the crisis is the decision the 90s labour administration made to decline the then-available opportunity to put a brake on immigration from the newly signed up EU countries. Without the impact of that on voter sentiment I strongly believe Remain would have won and this thread would be 4250 comments shorter. I'm saying this as an observer, not someone with an agenda on this subject

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Andy_Faber;39067532]

As I've said before, there are no clean hands

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-court-told


I think your party allegiance is colouring your view

Except that a) I don’t have a Party allegiance. b) the article has nothing at all to do with Brexit or the behaviour of MP’s in relation to the current crisis. c) I have never suggested that Labour politicians are all paragons of virtue.

[swaledale]

I beg to differ. The root cause of the crisis is the decision the 90s labour administration made to decline the then-available opportunity to put a brake on immigration from the newly signed up EU countries. Without the impact of that on voter sentiment I strongly believe Remain would have won and this thread would be 4250 comments shorter. I'm saying this as an observer, not someone with an agenda on this subject

Thats far too simple a theory, and werent you arguing a while back that immigration wasn't the sole reason?

Sure there are those inwardly looking, narrow minded individuals who view immigration as negative thing, there are those who thought it would stop non eu migrants - Trickys rants incherent though they were focussed on that when he wasn't trying to prove conspiracy theories - there are many who want to turn the clock back to the 1950's when Brotain had the last vestigaes of an empire and thought of itself (foolishly) as a world power and many apparently sentient people who thought that £350 million to the NHS sounded like a good idea, and then there were those ****ed off by being treated shabbily by successive governments - ironically often in areas where eu migration was not significant - north east, humberside, the forgotten tons of East Anglia like Yarmouth, Clacton etc.- who voted leave because to give what they saw as the establishment a kicking - ironic when Farage, Rees-Mogg and Johnson are the very embodiment of the establishment.

Despite all this a narrow majority of the 37% voted for leave hardly convincing.

I heard it summed up very succinctly the other day - Leavers voted Remain and Remainers voted Leave - i.e. those that were prepared to move in search of better job and life opportunities voted remain - those who haven't strayed more than a stones throw from where they were born voted Leave.

Yet this country is made up of immigrants, if you take one of those DNA ancestry tests you may find your not as "english" as you believe.

Anyway we will remain in the customs union and virtually in if not actually in the single market, anything else is economic suicide and simply wont happen.

[swaledale]

I decided to take no notice of any partisan outlets regarding the ‘deal’ (which meant no Laura kuenssberg tonight thank God) and it looks to me like the general feeling is that this is an OK deal.

It just goes to show people never appreciate what they have until they don't have it - most countries would love to have a broadcaster such as the BBC, indeed in many places across the world its viewed as the only reliable news service - given that it strives to offer a balanced view even when its patently ludicrous - viz. having climate change deniers on when discussing said subject.

The BBC is not perfect, what organisation run by human beings is, but to call it partisan smacks of a Daily Mail readers mentality - though I notice with a change of editor that has rather done a reverse ferret on Brexit lately!

Maybe its because it does

[ramAnag]

It just goes to show people never appreciate what they have until they don't have it - most countries would love to have a broadcaster such as the BBC, indeed in many places across the world its viewed as the only reliable news service - given that it strives to offer a balanced view even when its patently ludicrous - viz. having climate change deniers on when discussing said subject.

The BBC is not perfect, what organisation run by human beings is, but to call it partisan smacks of a Daily Mail readers mentality - though I notice with a change of editor that has rather done a reverse ferret on Brexit lately!

Maybe its because it does

Agree with virtually every word of those two posts Swale.

Interesting too Andy that yesterday the leader of the CBI went out of her way to query the wisdom of the immigration implications of May’s plans.
Unless I misunderstood she seemed to be expressing real concern about the damaging impact a shortage of labour might have on such areas as the building trade and the NHS.
Don’t really see how you can blame Labour’s policy of two decades ago. The root of the Brexit fiasco lies with the likes of Duncan Smith, Paterson, Johnson, Fox, Rees Mogg, UKIP and Gove....and just look at who’s still stirring up trouble! Sincerely hope there’ll be no Gove in long term future Gove-rnment.

[AdiSalisbury]

So... after 189 pages of debate, love-ins and bickering, has anyone changed their mind yet? And who, as originally asked, do you want as prime minister throughout this transition period?

For me, my decision is one I am more certain of than at first. Going forward, I can chew this transition deal for the interim, but there needs to be more focus on the point of leaving in full, and I don't think May is strong enough to deliver anything but an extension of what's already in place, so a stronger negotiator is needed to deliver. Either Labour need to offer up a better option than the present giant douche, or the Tory's need to replace May. So in my opinion, we need a proper turd sandwich to ensure we leave without having the EU economic shackles in place.

[Geoff Parkstone]

That seems a fair observation Adi.

Whoever leads the country through the primary stages of leaving is committing comparative political suicide since, as we have now seen the extremes of her party and indeed parliament would form an unholy alliance that would bring such a leader down unless they had a huge majority. Which she didn't have. So May is history no matter what happens. The sacrificial lamb who ironically did not want the process in the first place.

Corbyn? Like many politicians I suspect he is far more effective in opposition where he can whinge and moan without fear of having to put his neck on the line and actually do something constructive. As can be seen right now he is an opportunist trying to force an election in the midst of national chaos - selfish at the expense of the country. Could he win? Maybe, especially is the Tory right back him as the best person to achieve the most extreme form of Brexit that they seek.

New candidates within the parties are hard to see. since all will be tainted by a Brexit slant one way or the other. that is going to hang over their careers for years to come. As I postulated earlier in thread, the best realistic way forward is apolitical with a centrist leaning. Both extremes of either party seem to want a hard leave (or at least harder than whats on offer now) and are prepared to trample the economy into the gutter to achieve it. National unity / coalition governments were commonplace in the first half of the 20th century in times of economic meltdown or war, this current scenario may carry similar risk and an agreement to suspend political feuding for(say) 3 years in national interest has a great deal of attraction. But who leads it? **** knows

[ramAnag]

So... after 189 pages of debate, love-ins and bickering, has anyone changed their mind yet? And who, as originally asked, do you want as prime minister throughout this transition period?

For me, my decision is one I am more certain of than at first. Going forward, I can chew this transition deal for the interim, but there needs to be more focus on the point of leaving in full, and I don't think May is strong enough to deliver anything but an extension of what's already in place, so a stronger negotiator is needed to deliver. Either Labour need to offer up a better option than the present giant douche, or the Tory's need to replace May. So in my opinion, we need a proper turd sandwich to ensure we leave without having the EU economic shackles in place.

Andy changes his mind more often than his pants and they’re riddled with holes from all his fence sitting anyway.
GP has even changed his identity and although I still think we’re all much better off ‘in’...my new greatest fear is the ‘no deal’ hard Brexit. If that’s what you mean by a ‘proper turd sandwich’ I seriously disagree about it being something ‘we need’.

Oh sorry...May if it means avoiding ‘no deal’...longer term Keir Starmer or Vince Cable with all extreme Brexiteers banished to a remote volcanic island which is about to erupt please.

[Andy_Faber]

Agree with virtually every word of those two posts Swale.

Interesting too Andy that yesterday the leader of the CBI went out of her way to query the wisdom of the immigration implications of May’s plans.
Unless I misunderstood she seemed to be expressing real concern about the damaging impact a shortage of labour might have on such areas as the building trade and the NHS.
Don’t really see how you can blame Labour’s policy of two decades ago. The root of the Brexit fiasco lies with the likes of Duncan Smith, Paterson, Johnson, Fox, Rees Mogg, UKIP and Gove....and just look at who’s still stirring up trouble! Sincerely hope there’ll be no Gove in long term future Gove-rnment.

I'm all for the international movement of labour, and the news reporting on it was interesting yesterday

I don't agree about the root of the Brexit fiasco though, those politicians are just stirring the pot - without the earlier policy of open doors to eastern europeans there would have been no pot to stir, because Leave voters would not have been so fired up on immigration and many would have voted Remain (or not voted)