OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

The EU has been in existence since 1992. How has it kept the peace for 70 odd years?

I find that line of thinking very disrespectful to NATO, the true reason for the lack of War in Europe.

As for the US of E, those who must be obeyed denied for decades that a US of E was the ultimate goal. It was from the minute the "Common Market" of 6 countries was created. It's not what I want.

Suspect that Swale is referring to the EU/EEC/Common Market as both a political and an economic union and I don’t think he mentioned ‘70 odd years’, but it is a fact that major European conflict involving the leading European nations has been avoided for seventy four years now and the political/economic alliance as represented by the EU - under whatever name - has almost certainly contributed to that.

Don’t see how it’s at all ‘disrespectful’ to NATO, Amster...they’ve obviously had a role to play, no one denies that, but what goes on in Europe is more likely to be determined by the Europeans than North Americans, especially given that the USA is currently led by someone who gives every impression of being an increasingly insane sociopath.

I wouldn’t want to see a US of E, with an overall European Presidency either, but I don’t think that’s likely and there is much to be said for unity in Europe which we need to be part of rather than the not so splendid isolation of Little Britain.

Coincidentally my local MP...Patrick McLoughlin...’doorstepped’ me yesterday. Frankly I was staggered at the weakness of his argument. He was clearly trying to defend a situation which he didn’t believe in but the level of debate and understanding on here is way above anything he had to offer and only added credence to the notion that a donkey with a blue rosette would be elected in the Derbyshire Dales as I’m sure is the case, with both red and blue, elsewhere in the country. Democracy eh?

[mistaram]

Suspect that Swale is referring to the EU/EEC/Common Market as both a political and an economic union and I don’t think he mentioned ‘70 odd years’, but it is a fact that major European conflict involving the leading European nations has been avoided for seventy four years now and the political/economic alliance as represented by the EU - under whatever name - has almost certainly contributed to that.

Don’t see how it’s at all ‘disrespectful’ to NATO, Amster...they’ve obviously had a role to play, no one denies that, but what goes on in Europe is more likely to be determined by the Europeans than North Americans, especially given that the USA is currently led by someone who gives every impression of being an increasingly insane sociopath.

I wouldn’t want to see a US of E, with an overall European Presidency either, but I don’t think that’s likely and there is much to be said for unity in Europe which we need to be part of rather than the not so splendid isolation of Little Britain.

Coincidentally my local MP...Patrick McLoughlin...’doorstepped’ me yesterday. Frankly I was staggered at the weakness of his argument. He was clearly trying to defend a situation which he didn’t believe in but the level of debate and understanding on here is way above anything he had to offer and only added credence to the notion that a donkey with a blue rosette would be elected in the Derbyshire Dales as I’m sure is the case, with both red and blue, elsewhere in the country. Democracy eh?

RA you can name your local MP Bet you will struggle to name your local MEP lol

[MadAmster]

Suspect that Swale is referring to the EU/EEC/Common Market as both a political and an economic union and I don’t think he mentioned ‘70 odd years’, but it is a fact that major European conflict involving the leading European nations has been avoided for seventy four years now and the political/economic alliance as represented by the EU - under whatever name - has almost certainly contributed to that.

Don’t see how it’s at all ‘disrespectful’ to NATO, Amster...they’ve obviously had a role to play, no one denies that, but what goes on in Europe is more likely to be determined by the Europeans than North Americans, especially given that the USA is currently led by someone who gives every impression of being an increasingly insane sociopath.

I wouldn’t want to see a US of E, with an overall European Presidency either, but I don’t think that’s likely and there is much to be said for unity in Europe which we need to be part of rather than the not so splendid isolation of Little Britain.

Swale didn't mention 70 years as such but inferred that the EU in its many guises over the years has kept the peace. I disagree. I think it's NATO. I also think that if we hadn't had NATO, especially in the cold war years, including the UKs nuclear deterrent, then Russia would have had a go at conquering Europe.

I refer my learned friend to my previous paragraph in this reply. Fortunately, the current POTUS wasn't around in those days and I hope he is gone in 2020.

As for a full blown US of E with a President, one set of Laws, one taxation system, European army, navy air force etc etc etc, that was, is and shall remain the goal of the Eurocrats.

[ramAnag]

RA you can name your local MP Bet you will struggle to name your local MEP lol

No idea, mista...but I bet people will be more aware if those elections do go ahead this time.

It may be one aim and idea of the Eurocrats, Amster...but isn’t that all the more reason for remaining and helping shape the future of Europe rather than being on the periphery for ever more?

[MadAmster]

Only the Commission can put forward Bills to the EU Parliament and they are determined to go for more and more centralisation. The UK wasn't, isn't, and never will be, in a position to do the slightest thing about it.

[ramAnag]

Only the Commission can put forward Bills to the EU Parliament and they are determined to go for more and more centralisation. The UK wasn't, isn't, and never will be, in a position to do the slightest thing about it.

Disagree MA...the UK is one of the three wealthiest members of the EU. Our outbursts of arrogance and intransigence may at times make us unpopular but our views matter. We will only be able to ‘do the slightest thing’ - or a lot more - about the future direction of the EU by remaining as a leading part of it.

[swaledale]

The EU has been in existence since 1992. How has it kept the peace for 70 odd years?

I find that line of thinking very disrespectful to NATO, the true reason for the lack of War in Europe.

As for the US of E, those who must be obeyed denied for decades that a US of E was the ultimate goal. It was from the minute the "Common Market" of 6 countries was created. It's not what I want.

Ah fallen into the classic trap - NATO was formed to counter the threat from the eastern block, with the USSR as the main power. A threat that appeared after WW2.

The political and economic partnership between the original 6 with Germany and France the main partners was specifically aimed at preventing what happened after WW1 happening after WW2 - that there would be economic and political cooperation which would never again see countries in western europe go to war.

It might pay you to do some historical research!

With respect what you want is not necessarily what happens! And whose to say what you want is the best option anyway? I thought you wanted a clamp down on tax evasion by the rich? Thats what the Eu is proposing!

The facts of the matter are, power ha shifted within the world, the Uk is no longer in a position to be on equal terms with the big economies of the USA, China, India etc. The EU on the otherhand is able to have more muscle and we are/were in an advantageous position within the EU with our veto on the things we dont like - but you know its like any club, there always rules which members don't like but thats the nature of cooperation, as a member one can always change or influence these, but of course you can't always have exactly what you would like but then there are also huge benefits.

Personally the chances of a US of E are distinctly remote, these things ebb and wane according to who is in power.

AS for they who must be obeyed, do some research and you will find a lot of EU directives and rules were suggested by the UK, some good some not so good but also there is no country in the EU, except perhaps for germany who so loves implementing EU directives and rules as the UK - a case in point being control of migration, which the UK government could if it had wanted to controlled using various mechanisms open to it under the EU.

[MadAmster]

Ah fallen into the classic trap - NATO was formed to counter the threat from the eastern block, with the USSR as the main power. A threat that appeared after WW2.

The political and economic partnership between the original 6 with Germany and France the main partners was specifically aimed at preventing what happened after WW1 happening after WW2 - that there would be economic and political cooperation which would never again see countries in western europe go to war.

It might pay you to do some historical research!

With respect what you want is not necessarily what happens! And whose to say what you want is the best option anyway? I thought you wanted a clamp down on tax evasion by the rich? Thats what the Eu is proposing!

The facts of the matter are, power ha shifted within the world, the Uk is no longer in a position to be on equal terms with the big economies of the USA, China, India etc. The EU on the otherhand is able to have more muscle and we are/were in an advantageous position within the EU with our veto on the things we dont like - but you know its like any club, there always rules which members don't like but thats the nature of cooperation, as a member one can always change or influence these, but of course you can't always have exactly what you would like but then there are also huge benefits.

Personally the chances of a US of E are distinctly remote, these things ebb and wane according to who is in power.

AS for they who must be obeyed, do some research and you will find a lot of EU directives and rules were suggested by the UK, some good some not so good but also there is no country in the EU, except perhaps for germany who so loves implementing EU directives and rules as the UK - a case in point being control of migration, which the UK government could if it had wanted to controlled using various mechanisms open to it under the EU.

.. and there you have the weakest link in the EU chain. With the exceptions of Germany, the UK and the Netherlands they all say yes to evrything and then do what the hell they like.

Spain exceeds their fishing quota. No action taken

France exceeds the 3% overspend on GDP every year. They should get fines every year. They don't. When asked why Juncker said "because they are the French".

The old Eastern bloc countries won't (most of them) take African immigrants/refugees despite them having to under EU Law.

Greece, Italy and others lied about their economy in order to be allowed to join the Euro.

All in all it's not a club I feel I can trust in any way, shape or form.

[Andy_Faber]

..they all say yes to evrything and then do what the hell they like.

I can only speak for the countries I have connections to - I’m in Spain at the mo, in the community not on holiday. The habit of UK (and Germany, the Nordics and The Netherlands) to stick in broad terms to the rules is seen as a bit of laugh here, the people of the territory I’m in dont even respect central Spanish law if they can avoid it, forget EU law - their view seems to be that ‘the town hall’ (ie local government) must be obeyed and the further away the seat of govt the less it’s listened to. Their allegiance to EU is purely as a meal ticket - however I can’t help think that’s a reflection on the relatively remote territory I’m in, I’d guess the big cities would take a different view (same as uk as it goes)

[swaledale]

.. and there you have the weakest link in the EU chain. With the exceptions of Germany, the UK and the Netherlands they all say yes to evrything and then do what the hell they like.

Spain exceeds their fishing quota. No action taken

France exceeds the 3% overspend on GDP every year. They should get fines every year. They don't. When asked why Juncker said "because they are the French".

The old Eastern bloc countries won't (most of them) take African immigrants/refugees despite them having to under EU Law.

Greece, Italy and others lied about their economy in order to be allowed to join the Euro.

All in all it's not a club I feel I can trust in any way, shape or form.

Thats as may be but economically and politically we are still better off in it with influence than outside it and with any institution or organisation that is run by human beings there will be flaws, Brexiteers claim they want the Uk to have sovereignty, have control, yet when parliament exercises its power they moan its not to their liking!

The truth is that the EU is the only way of exercising some control over multi nationals and whatever the flaws its a lot more benign than the wealthy Brexit supporting elite who want a low tax low regulation low wage economy that makes millions for them and their cronies who don't give a flying **** about the "ordinary citizen".