OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

"1) The electorate were not presented with the facts...they were presented with lies and half truths.
2) The electorate are not sufficiently capable and were not sufficiently well informed to be able to reach a decision of this complexity.
3) The referendum took place in late June, this is a time when many people take their holidays in order to gain the joint benefits of decent weather and out of school holiday prices. With this in mind it was always likely that some people wouldn’t be able to vote without taking the necessary steps before they went on holiday.
4) Since the Referendum, which many complacently thought would be a ‘shoe in’ for ‘Remain’, the amount of anxiety and pessimism within the business/finance communities has been unprecedentedly high and these feelings need now to be taken notice of.
5) Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’.
6) Twenty odd months on, despite regularly being told...’Brexit means Brexit’ there is still no one in this country who can thruthfully say they know what ‘sort’ of Brexit we are heading for so how the hell could we vote for it twenty plus months ago?"

OK this is just bait in the trap isnt it. Firstly I agree with Andy - I voted remain but accepted the decision as I had (and still have) severe reservations about where the EU is heading vis a vis USE and the undemocratic way it is set up.

But to take the points one by one:

The electorate were not presented with the facts...they were presented with lies and half truths. This observation, with which I agree, applies equally to both sides of the debate and the accusation can no more be thrown at remainers as it can stayers. The losers simply are claiming that the winners told bigger lies and half truths. I do not believe that to be true.

The electorate are not sufficiently capable and were not sufficiently well informed to be able to reach a decision of this complexity. I agree and the who;le concept of a referendum was fatally flawed, ill defined and misunderstood. But why is this any worse for one side than the other?


The referendum took place in late June, this is a time when many people take their holidays.... this really is clutching at straws. In point of fact those that have the freedom to take holidays in June are most likely those without children and thus likely to be older. If one looks at the voting demographics it is the older people that were more proc leaving, so this would have hurt the leave vote more than the remain vote


Since the Referendum, which many complacently thought would be a ‘shoe in’ for ‘Remain’, the amount of anxiety and pessimism within the business/finance communities has been unprecedentedly high and these feelings need now to be taken notice of. Agreed that the remainers were complacent but that is not anyone's fault apart from remain suporters who couldn't be arsed to vote. You cannot have regard for that. As I recall a "wise" man on here once said that we (DCFC) Needed more complacency in order to succeed. But you cannot get a recount on the basis that "I didn't think my vote would matter" Those feelings do NOT now need to be taken into account. The game is over, you cannot backtrack.

Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’. Adi has addressed this above; the democratic right to vote was enabled for anyone of current voting age. Those that chose not to vote did so of their own free will and there is no right to presume that the one third who ducked out would have been representative of one faction or the other. Those who chose not to vote surrendered their right to representation - and note historically the young end of the spectrum are those that tend not to vote in elections, but in this case that trend was overturned. Thus a good argument could be raised that the disinterested were narrowly in favour of leave. If people will not speak, then the voice that is heard excludes them at their own cost.


Twenty odd months on, despite regularly being told...’Brexit means Brexit’ there is still no one in this country who can thruthfully say they know what ‘sort’ of Brexit we are heading for so how the hell could we vote for it twenty plus months ago? And your point is? We did vote, we may have got it right, we may have got it wrong (I sense you favour the latter perspective) but the fact remains we did. I dont remember you complaining about having to vote at the time - but I may be wrong.


Sorry these continuing gripes do sound like the bitter and twisted ramblings of someone who lost a game. I would expect it following Bobby Zamora's goal - we wuz robbed - but this is not quite the same.

[Romanis]

All these Brexit mess, we should turned to Communism long ago, who knows we might have been as rich and powerful as China today!



In jest gentlemen, in jest.


Oh boy, now you've got Roger all excited.
You guys are really IN IT NOW

[mistaram]

No reds under the beds last week when May took the begging bowl to China just imaging the Daily Mail if had been Corbyn

[ramAnag]

"1) The electorate were not presented with the facts...they were presented with lies and half truths.
2) The electorate are not sufficiently capable and were not sufficiently well informed to be able to reach a decision of this complexity.
3) The referendum took place in late June, this is a time when many people take their holidays in order to gain the joint benefits of decent weather and out of school holiday prices. With this in mind it was always likely that some people wouldn’t be able to vote without taking the necessary steps before they went on holiday.
4) Since the Referendum, which many complacently thought would be a ‘shoe in’ for ‘Remain’, the amount of anxiety and pessimism within the business/finance communities has been unprecedentedly high and these feelings need now to be taken notice of.
5) Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’.
6) Twenty odd months on, despite regularly being told...’Brexit means Brexit’ there is still no one in this country who can thruthfully say they know what ‘sort’ of Brexit we are heading for so how the hell could we vote for it twenty plus months ago?"

OK this is just bait in the trap isnt it. Firstly I agree with Andy - I voted remain but accepted the decision as I had (and still have) severe reservations about where the EU is heading vis a vis USE and the undemocratic way it is set up.

But to take the points one by one:

The electorate were not presented with the facts...they were presented with lies and half truths. This observation, with which I agree, applies equally to both sides of the debate and the accusation can no more be thrown at remainers as it can stayers. The losers simply are claiming that the winners told bigger lies and half truths. I do not believe that to be true.

The electorate are not sufficiently capable and were not sufficiently well informed to be able to reach a decision of this complexity. I agree and the who;le concept of a referendum was fatally flawed, ill defined and misunderstood. But why is this any worse for one side than the other?


The referendum took place in late June, this is a time when many people take their holidays.... this really is clutching at straws. In point of fact those that have the freedom to take holidays in June are most likely those without children and thus likely to be older. If one looks at the voting demographics it is the older people that were more proc leaving, so this would have hurt the leave vote more than the remain vote


Since the Referendum, which many complacently thought would be a ‘shoe in’ for ‘Remain’, the amount of anxiety and pessimism within the business/finance communities has been unprecedentedly high and these feelings need now to be taken notice of. Agreed that the remainers were complacent but that is not anyone's fault apart from remain suporters who couldn't be arsed to vote. You cannot have regard for that. As I recall a "wise" man on here once said that we (DCFC) Needed more complacency in order to succeed. But you cannot get a recount on the basis that "I didn't think my vote would matter" Those feelings do NOT now need to be taken into account. The game is over, you cannot backtrack.

Much has been said about democracy and the voice of the people. I always believed that ‘democracy’ somehow equates to ‘majority rule’...the percentage of people who voted for Brexit is a very long way from ‘majority rule’ or the ‘voice of the people’. Adi has addressed this above; the democratic right to vote was enabled for anyone of current voting age. Those that chose not to vote did so of their own free will and there is no right to presume that the one third who ducked out would have been representative of one faction or the other. Those who chose not to vote surrendered their right to representation - and note historically the young end of the spectrum are those that tend not to vote in elections, but in this case that trend was overturned. Thus a good argument could be raised that the disinterested were narrowly in favour of leave. If people will not speak, then the voice that is heard excludes them at their own cost.


Twenty odd months on, despite regularly being told...’Brexit means Brexit’ there is still no one in this country who can thruthfully say they know what ‘sort’ of Brexit we are heading for so how the hell could we vote for it twenty plus months ago? And your point is? We did vote, we may have got it right, we may have got it wrong (I sense you favour the latter perspective) but the fact remains we did. I dont remember you complaining about having to vote at the time - but I may be wrong.


Sorry these continuing gripes do sound like the bitter and twisted ramblings of someone who lost a game. I would expect it following Bobby Zamora's goal - we wuz robbed - but this is not quite the same.

Ha...I knew Jetwash wouldn’t be able to resist! Love it when a plan comes together. Welcome back old horse.

In response...
1. I have never claimed that lies were the prerogative of one side only...although the biggest one was plastered down the side of a bus.
2. See above...it isn’t worse for one side than the other but it does devalue the whole concept of referenda.
3. Not clutching at straws...one reason why the vast majority of General Elections don’t take place in the summer and surely referenda, by definition, should be seeking the biggest - most democratic - response possible.
4. I’m not seeking a ‘recount’. I’m seeking an opportunity for people to be properly informed and aware of how much this matters, both sadly lacking in June 2016.
5. You make a fair point, but (see 3 above) if we have to have referenda and they are to have the democratic value suggested then they surely need to achieve a majority of over 50%.
6. Mypoint is...’Brexit means Brexit’ is meaningless...it’s the language of the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party. We had a referendum not knowing what we were voting for. We still don’t know what is involved so how can an informed democratic decision possibly have been reached and, tbf, I was always thoroughly opposed to there being a referendum.
7. Nothing like Zamora’s goal at all. They scored, we didn’t...everyone knows the aim of the game...end of. Disappointing, temporarily upsetting but neither unfair nor of any great lasting consequence. With the referendum...the consequences are seemingly endless, it’s serious and, imo, compounding one mistake with another is always to be avoided.
Welcome back chap.

[Ram59]

Ha...I knew Jetwash wouldn’t be able to resist! Love it when a plan comes together. Welcome back old horse.

In response...
1. I have never claimed that lies were the prerogative of one side only...although the biggest one was plastered down the side of a bus.
2. See above...it isn’t worse for one side than the other but it does devalue the whole concept of referenda.
3. Not clutching at straws...one reason why the vast majority of General Elections don’t take place in the summer and surely referenda, by definition, should be seeking the biggest - most democratic - response possible.
4. I’m not seeking a ‘recount’. I’m seeking an opportunity for people to be properly informed and aware of how much this matters, both sadly lacking in June 2016.
5. You make a fair point, but (see 3 above) if we have to have referenda and they are to have the democratic value suggested then they surely need to achieve a majority of over 50%.
6. Mypoint is...’Brexit means Brexit’ is meaningless...it’s the language of the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party. We had a referendum not knowing what we were voting for. We still don’t know what is involved so how can an informed democratic decision possibly have been reached and, tbf, I was always thoroughly opposed to there being a referendum.
7. Nothing like Zamora’s goal at all. They scored, we didn’t...everyone knows the aim of the game...end of. Disappointing, temporarily upsetting but neither unfair nor of any great lasting consequence. With the referendum...the consequences are seemingly endless, it’s serious and, imo, compounding one mistake with another is always to be avoided.
Welcome back chap.

You should try and justify some of your claims or facts. Let's start with your paranoia about the bus, I bet you've not been on a bus since! The 'lie' on the side of a bus clamed to give us and extra £3 per week each over the actual figure, to be spent on the NHS some years ahead. On the other side Osbourne threatened us taxpayers with an IMMEDIATE average tax rise of £15 per week out of our pockets plus an IMMEDIATE rise in VAT. How can the former be a bigger lie?

Secondly, virtually all elections are held in May and on my calendar that is only 1 month away from June.

We had a referendum not knowing what we voted for, when joining the EEC, do you want that revoked as well?

Are there any straws left to grasp at?

This is getting rather tiresome.

[ramAnag]

You should try and justify some of your claims or facts. Let's start with your paranoia about the bus, I bet you've not been on a bus since! The 'lie' on the side of a bus clamed to give us and extra £3 per week each over the actual figure, to be spent on the NHS some years ahead. On the other side Osbourne threatened us taxpayers with an IMMEDIATE average tax rise of £15 per week out of our pockets plus an IMMEDIATE rise in VAT. How can the former be a bigger lie?

Secondly, virtually all elections are held in May and on my calendar that is only 1 month away from June.

We had a referendum not knowing what we voted for, when joining the EEC, do you want that revoked as well?

Are there any straws left to grasp at?

This is getting rather tiresome.

The implied promise on the side of the bus was that leaving the EU would provide the NHS with an extra £350m per week. There was a near stampede to distance themselves from it once the result was known.

I think all future elections are to be held on the first Thursday of May...not exactly the height of the holiday season.

I think we knew in the original referendum that we were joining the other countries of Europe in an Economic Community.

I don’t know...have you got any more?

You’re right.

[Trickytreesreds]

The implied promise on the side of the bus was that leaving the EU would provide the NHS with an extra £350m per week. There was a near stampede to distance themselves from it once the result was known.

I think all future elections are to be held on the first Thursday of May...not exactly the height of the holiday season.

I think we knew in the original referendum that we were joining the other countries of Europe in an Economic Community.

I don’t know...have you got any more?

You’re right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFAo78DGdSU

[Manofpride]

Welcome back Tricky, Nice honest clip but there are plenty on here won't agree because the vote went against them! They'll be saying there was no such thing as the holocaust next! They believe what they want to believe!

[Trickytreesreds]

Welcome back Tricky, Nice honest clip but there are plenty on here won't agree because the vote went against them! They'll be saying there was no such thing as the holocaust next! They believe what they want to believe!

Cheers MOP. After being given a 10% chance of survival, 6 weeks in intensive care, including a week in a coma. I'm just glad to be doing some thing normal again.
Suddenly Brexit, seems laughable to me and the way some folks are getting upset.

[ramAnag]

Cheers MOP. After being given a 10% chance of survival, 6 weeks in intensive care, including a week in a coma. I'm just glad to be doing some thing normal again.
Suddenly Brexit, seems laughable to me and the way some folks are getting upset.

Well I’m glad you’re recovering Tricky...but I’ll pass on the clip thanks.