OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Swale, much as I’m far more likely to agree with you than Andy over Brexit, doesn’t that latest answer put you in competition with Johnson and Farage in the hypocrisy stakes?

I'm not sure we disagree much R, especially on the avoided culpability for the banking crisis, and I wish you could have popped in here yesterday, I had a pair of 'corporate types' come to see me who, with their sharp suits and their dead eyes, gave me the impression they would have slit my throat for a penny and turned away looking for the next deal before I'd hit the floor

We also agree on public services, ie they are under-resourced - but you think they are underfunded and I think they are overloaded

[ramAnag]

I'm not sure we disagree much R, especially on the avoided culpability for the banking crisis, and I wish you could have popped in here yesterday, I had a pair of 'corporate types' come to see me who, with their sharp suits and their dead eyes, gave me the impression they would have slit my throat for a penny and turned away looking for the next deal before I'd hit the floor

We also agree on public services, ie they are under-resourced - but you think they are underfunded and I think they are overloaded

Semantics Mr. F...surely if you agree they are ‘under resourced’ then they are only ‘overloaded’ precisely because they are ‘underfunded’.

[roger_ramjet]

I like Bukovsky's analogy and there is a great deal of evident truth in what he says on the conceptual similarities between what the EU and SU were trying to achieve. I particularly like the "expand or die" aspect. The EU is a Ponzi scheme. His thoughts very much echo my left shouldered devil about the creation of a European Single State. Ramanag's fears about the economy rather echo those of my right shouldered angel. Hence my continued uncertainty over the route we are going down: but whatever we have chosen, we must remain committed to it, not compromise it and end up with all the bad aspects and none of the good.

Neither angel nor devil are emphatically persuasive - Bukovsky's fears may be illusory and perhaps more EU states than us will reject the single state scenario and so it wont happen: but the EU decision making is still basically made by unelected officials and dominated by Germany and their acolytes.

On the other hand, I think economically we would be better off remaining, despite the optimism of "new markets" put forward by brexiteers. There is uncertainty as to whether we will be better off in or out economically. On balance I suspect remaining will give us more economic certainty and stability - and it will be hard to reverse the running down of our production of physical goods that years of cheap imports and, subsequently, focussed european based industry specialisation have helped create.

These are the two counterbalancing issues that I think are important to the in/out debate. Note I say debate - the actual referendum result was determined in the main by a different fear factor, the quasi racist "free movement of labour" issue which seems to have swayed many - or at least enough in an already tightly balanced contest.

It may simply be that the twin issues of economy vs democracry/nationalism were too complicated for the man in the street to understand - and were probably ill explained and subject to a variety of mistruths from either side. But he could understand the "damned poles/romanians/czechs etc" argument because he could recognise them and scapegoat them, perhaps for his own shortcomings.

So I believe the referendum created a decision based on the wrong reasons. it may prove to be the right decision, but noone can argue it was for the right reasons.

The risks - to leave and undergo a difficult few years adjusting to a new trade environment, to perhaps see a rebasing of the our currency, sovereign debt rating and balance of payments. Perhaps an overall downturn in the level of economic activity, but long term this can be adjusted to and ultimately remedied.

To stay and perhaps succumb to the unitary state, the euro, the european army etc. Sure we can try to influence the direction of the U policy, but we will fail. We can only make a stand against the tide by leaving - Cnut didnt really stop it, and we are naive to think we could despite the "magic bullet" of a veto.

I (and probably many of the rest of us "old pensioners") will probably not be around by the time we can evaluate the decision in the cool light of the day: but it we are ever going to leave, then we have to do it now before we get irretrievably assimilated to the Borg. Its a shame we didnt leave when the euro was introduced...

If only the Berlin wall hadn't come down

[Andy_Faber]

Semantics Mr. F...surely if you agree they are ‘under resourced’ then they are only ‘overloaded’ precisely because they are ‘underfunded’.

No I don't think its semantics at all, I return to putting it another way, you want to spend more on the same (and increasing) amount of demand, I want to spend the same (or less) on a reduced demand (and there is another route I would put before both, achieve more from every £ spent).

[Romanis]

How is that new job as a furniture removal man's assistant going then Swale? Is the humping training complete? Must be about ready to learn how to "phwoar" the female office staff soon?

������

A job's a job I say. Actually all these removal business is good money. Here they have it but the better money I gather is in home delivery. We have this service here - Redmart. People order stuff and you do the delivery as a contractor. I believe they provide a van too (maybe you have to pay to rent I suppose). It's about 5 bucks per delivery, looks cheapo but I gather you have something like 30-40 deliveries a day in 1 sector. So not bad, since you're looking like at say 150-200 a day less diesel and rental.

Maybe a job some of you might try if they have something similar in Blighty. Something I would consider when I'm ready to give up the grind of office work. If you're retiree or pensioner, also not bad job to do, me thinks. Keeps you active and a bit of your own dosh, earned by your effort.

[Andy_Faber]

A job's a job I say. Actually all these removal business is good money. Here they have it but the better money I gather is in home delivery. We have this service here - Redmart. People order stuff and you do the delivery as a contractor. I believe they provide a van too (maybe you have to pay to rent I suppose). It's about 5 bucks per delivery, looks cheapo but I gather you have something like 30-40 deliveries a day in 1 sector. So not bad, since you're looking like at say 150-200 a day less diesel and rental.

Maybe a job some of you might try if they have something similar in Blighty. Something I would consider when I'm ready to give up the grind of office work. If you're retiree or pensioner, also not bad job to do, me thinks. Keeps you active and a bit of your own dosh, earned by your effort.

getting in and out of a car/van 30-40 times a day, no ta!

[Romanis]

getting in and out of a car/van 30-40 times a day, no ta!

Good exercise mate. Plus I decided if I was ever going to do it, I'd hire a kid to do the delivering whilst I do the driving. Pay him like 50 bucks (yeah we use dollars here).
Plenty smart eh?

[roger_ramjet]

Hmmm, I am thinking you are about 15 years too late with that concept. Setting aside the Royal Mail options and those provided in house by the likes of Amazon, there are Fedex, DHL etc amongst the international majors and maybe another 10 or 12 decent sized companies who use a similar model. I would say, however that some absolutely suck when it comes to their utility. I will not name the company, but they sound like an Alpine Swiss "song", are so appallingly bad that I (and many others that I know) wil cancel orders for things once they realise that this company is the appointed delivery method.

Further down the food chain are the gig economy equivalents - bike/scooter etc couriers who shuttle around small stuff of rucksack size, and at the same time are a menace to pedestrians and indeed themselves.

We have also evolved a version which does not need delivery men at all - but simply drops off stuff at a local retailer for collection by the addressee. Argos for instance processes tons of stuff on this basis.

Your evolution looks slower, so jump the queue and get chateau Romanis designated as a collection point. You will get paid and can still sit on your arse at the same time! Win-win.

[Andy_Faber]

Hmmm, I am thinking you are about 15 years too late with that concept. Setting aside the Royal Mail options and those provided in house by the likes of Amazon, there are Fedex, DHL etc amongst the international majors and maybe another 10 or 12 decent sized companies who use a similar model. I would say, however that some absolutely suck when it comes to their utility. I will not name the company, but they sound like an Alpine Swiss "song", are so appallingly bad that I (and many others that I know) wil cancel orders for things once they realise that this company is the appointed delivery method.

Further down the food chain are the gig economy equivalents - bike/scooter etc couriers who shuttle around small stuff of rucksack size, and at the same time are a menace to pedestrians and indeed themselves.

We have also evolved a version which does not need delivery men at all - but simply drops off stuff at a local retailer for collection by the addressee. Argos for instance processes tons of stuff on this basis.

Your evolution looks slower, so jump the queue and get chateau Romanis designated as a collection point. You will get paid and can still sit on your arse at the same time! Win-win.

Not forgetting The Scouts Christmas Stamp and Deliver service, aka Dump 'Em In black Bags Down Gypsy Lane

[Trickytreesreds]

I like Bukovsky's analogy and there is a great deal of evident truth in what he says on the conceptual similarities between what the EU and SU were trying to achieve. I particularly like the "expand or die" aspect. The EU is a Ponzi scheme. His thoughts very much echo my left shouldered devil about the creation of a European Single State. Ramanag's fears about the economy rather echo those of my right shouldered angel. Hence my continued uncertainty over the route we are going down: but whatever we have chosen, we must remain committed to it, not compromise it and end up with all the bad aspects and none of the good.

Neither angel nor devil are emphatically persuasive - Bukovsky's fears may be illusory and perhaps more EU states than us will reject the single state scenario and so it wont happen: but the EU decision making is still basically made by unelected officials and dominated by Germany and their acolytes.

On the other hand, I think economically we would be better off remaining, despite the optimism of "new markets" put forward by brexiteers. There is uncertainty as to whether we will be better off in or out economically. On balance I suspect remaining will give us more economic certainty and stability - and it will be hard to reverse the running down of our production of physical goods that years of cheap imports and, subsequently, focussed european based industry specialisation have helped create.

These are the two counterbalancing issues that I think are important to the in/out debate. Note I say debate - the actual referendum result was determined in the main by a different fear factor, the quasi racist "free movement of labour" issue which seems to have swayed many - or at least enough in an already tightly balanced contest.

It may simply be that the twin issues of economy vs democracry/nationalism were too complicated for the man in the street to understand - and were probably ill explained and subject to a variety of mistruths from either side. But he could understand the "damned poles/romanians/czechs etc" argument because he could recognise them and scapegoat them, perhaps for his own shortcomings.

So I believe the referendum created a decision based on the wrong reasons. it may prove to be the right decision, but noone can argue it was for the right reasons.

The risks - to leave and undergo a difficult few years adjusting to a new trade environment, to perhaps see a rebasing of the our currency, sovereign debt rating and balance of payments. Perhaps an overall downturn in the level of economic activity, but long term this can be adjusted to and ultimately remedied.

To stay and perhaps succumb to the unitary state, the euro, the european army etc. Sure we can try to influence the direction of the U policy, but we will fail. We can only make a stand against the tide by leaving - Cnut didnt really stop it, and we are naive to think we could despite the "magic bullet" of a veto.

I (and probably many of the rest of us "old pensioners") will probably not be around by the time we can evaluate the decision in the cool light of the day: but it we are ever going to leave, then we have to do it now before we get irretrievably assimilated to the Borg. Its a shame we didnt leave when the euro was introduced...

If only the Berlin wall hadn't come down

Very reasonable reply RR.

My personal opinion on the EU, is that folks have either forgotten, or refuse to accept what happened over the last 45 years.
We was sold this "lemon", on the pretext of free trade and becoming "good buddies" with another 8 nations of similar economic back ground.

At no point was a political union/ army/flag/anthem/law court/currency mentioned, leading to a central political office.
What Bukovsky said, was seven years ago. It has become more truer and terrifying since his words and the drive to ever closer unification is in turbo mode now.
I accept we may now have to pay an economic price for a while to escape. But escape we must NOW, whilst we can.
But it isn't all about economics, as most moaners cling to.

We need to start again, it isn't a disaster. After WW2, Germany and Japan were on their arses, yet they rolled their sleeves up and got on with it.

52% Of the vote didn't want to be assimilated. We've our spat, lets get on with it.