I voted yes....but felt like I'd been kicked in the ba's the day

[noahrab]

Yes I said it was "optional" then qualified it by saying in theory it was. But if you want to be pedantic (see I used your favourite word there) I assume you know what it means.

The Eurozone for Dummies and people called Paddy

The fact is Scotland couldn't join the Euro even if it wanted do. There is a thing called the The Eurozone Convergence Criteria.

The Eurozone Convergence Criteria (aka the Maastricht Criteria, as they were defined by the Maastricht Treaty in 1994) state five conditions that a country must fulfil before it is allowed entry into the Eurozone. These are:

1. Price stability – the country’s Consumer Price Inflation (HICP) rate must not be more than 1.5% above the rate of the three best performing Eurozone member states.

2. Sound public finances – the government’s deficit must not be higher than 3% of GDP.

3. Sustainable public finances – the government’s debt must not be higher than 60% of GDP.

4. Durability of convergence – the country’s long-term interest rate must not be more than 2% above the rate of the three best performing Eurozone member states in terms of price stability.

5. Exchange rate stability – the country’s existing currency must have been part of ERM II (Exchange Rate Mechanism II) for at least 2 years without severe tensions.

Now, let’s just think about how many of those conditions Scotland would fulfil on day one of independence because unless we met all five in full on Day 1 of independence, Errm Phuck all.

Whether Scotland could meet any of the first four as a brand new independent country is open to debate, quite simply because we’ll have a lack of history outside the UK to prove it.

An Indy Scotland would be commited to taking on their part of the UKs massive debt .unless we told the conniving Britnats to feck off which legally we could do. But we're better than that Ken So we’ve taken on a proportionate share of the debt, we’re instantly buggered on 3 and possibly 2. following so far Paddy ?



But the last of the five – essentially the last step before any country can join the Eurozone – is membership of ERM II for a minimum of two years. Now, unless the current UK government has a complete reversal in policy towards the Euro pretty much right now, Scotland cannot possibly be said to have been in ERM II for two years on independence day, because right up until then Scotland’s currency will have been Sterling, and so won’t have been in ERM II for two minutes, never mind two years.

There’s simply no way the EU would bend this rule either, as Sweden’s continued policy of failing this rule on purpose to give a de facto Euro opt-out shows. So just as Scotland cannot be forced to join the Euro, we are also prevented from joining it voluntarily – just like Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland and Romania, all of whom want to join the Euro, but can’t because they don’t fulfil the five criteria (Sweden don’t want to, and the Czechs can’t seem to decide).

There is, of course, one other requirement which is not in the Maastricht Criteria, because to be bound by the Maastricht Criteria you must have one fundamental quality first – being a member of the EU

So every person who talks of Scotland “joining the Euro” is implicitly confirming that they believe Scotland would be a full member of the EU on day one of independence. No EU membership, no Eurozone entry. (Unless you think Scotland is a micro-state like Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican City.)

There is one way Scotland could use the Euro without meeting the Maastricht Criteria. It’s the same way Montenegro are able to use the Euro, despite not being in the EU and not meeting the criteria. That is to use the Euro without permission, in the same way Scotland can use Sterling if it wants to, because the Euro is a fully convertible currency. (Of course, that’s not joining the Euro, that’s using the Euro.)

But if this was the option that journalists were referring to, then why limit our options to the Euro? Why not include the Danish, Norwegian or Swedish Kroner? The Swiss Franc? The Canadian Dollar, even? More to the point, if Scotland goes down the road of using a fully convertible currency without permission, then it’d be absurd and pointless to use anything but Sterling.

So bearing all that in mind, is there any chance that everyone could shut up until they have at least the vaguest beginnings of a clue what the hell they’re talking about?

Anyway this is and always been a red herring and part of project fear its really not as big an issue as the Britnats like to make it.

Withoot reading what you've just cut and pasted from some biased pysh like wingsoversomerset or some other propaganda site, it isn't 'optional' or 'in theory' but a matter of fact that you have to use the euro.

When that happens is another debate but it's a condition of joining.

Just admit you were wrong...again.

I have no problem with you wanting independence but please deal in facts as it makes you look desperate for it at any price, as opposed to those that want to know the price.

[stewarty27]

the very money we have in our pockets......not a big issue?......I shake my head.

so where are we now:

- the euro is a no go
- the sterling zone with the rest o the uk is also a no go (see link in first post)

- maybe we could go wi the scottish pound and find out its nae actually worth a sh1t.

Very pessimistic outlook Zep. The whole thing has changed since Brexit .The pound's value has dropped greatly since then and will prob never recover to what it was. The point I was making was its not the type of currency you have in your pocket its what its worth. I have listened to the Stiglitz interview and he did NOT say it was a mistake he said " it MAY have been a mistake" big difference !

The "mistake" the Yes side made was thinking there would be some kind of goodwill on the Unionist side and they would be logical about it. But they used it as a weapon !!! Yes thought that the Tories would act in a logical and reasonable manner.The shared currency proposal gave UKOK an opportunity to damage the Yes campaign by declining the SNP proposal,a proposal that Westminster couldn’t block in reality . A lesson learned, next time do not set out your stall assuming any cooperation with UKOK. That was what Stiglitz meant.
There is absolutely NO reason Scotland could not have its own currency probably the "Scottish Pound would be best. Why would the Scottish pound be... actually worth a sh1t. it would be a bona fide tradable currency like any other in the world. The only potential difference in currency valuations would occur if Scotland launched its own currency and the most likely outcome is that Scotland currency would be worth more than the rest of UK’s so we would have to devalue / peg our currency to sterling so that exchange rates didn’t make scottish goods and services to expensive for the R UK to buy.

[stewarty27]

Withoot reading what you've just cut and pasted from some biased pysh like wingsoversomerset or some other propaganda site, it isn't 'optional' or 'in theory' but a matter of fact that you have to use the euro.

When that happens is another debate but it's a condition of joining.

Just admit you were wrong...again.

I have no problem with you wanting independence but please deal in facts as it makes you look desperate for it at any price, as opposed to those that want to know the price.

Your issue dodging again Noah. What i posted was researched from alternative sources and they are facts. Facts taken from the EUs OWN Eurozone document, Sadly you won't find theses facts on the Unionist MSM as they don't suit their agenda. If its mandatory (is that what your saying ?) answer me this why didn't the UK ever join the Euro or Denmark or Sweden for that matter ?

[Taintedice]

A Scottish pound has to be tied to the English pound, which then leaves it vulnerable to events in England, such as Engxit which saw the £ drop dramatically. If it's a standalone currency, the barrowboys and spivs in London masquerading as currency traders will do everything to destabilise it, at the behest of a bitter English government who will see their own sterling zone plunge. Hope the SNP have a strategy.

[Taintedice]

I have no problem with you wanting independence but please deal in facts as it makes you look desperate for it at any price, as opposed to those that want to know the price.

you should email that to the SNP headquarters as if they really want a second referendum they need to explain how everything will work instead of the nonsense fat eck came away with i.e. it'll be alright on the night. Which it won't.

[Taintedice]

Your issue dodging again Noah. What i posted was researched from alternative sources and they are facts. Facts taken from the EUs OWN Eurozone document, Sadly you won't find theses facts on the Unionist MSM as they don't suit their agenda. If its mandatory (is that what your saying ?) answer me this why didn't the UK ever join the Euro or Denmark or Sweden for that matter ?

are you saying the EU can't change their conditions of entry to suit themselves? Malta joined in 2004 and now has the Euro, I was not aware of that myself until I asked for some Maltese lira . Doubt they were given a choice.

[stewarty27]

are you saying the EU can't change their conditions of entry to suit themselves? Malta joined in 2004 and now has the Euro, I was not aware of that myself until I asked for some Maltese lira . Doubt they were given a choice.

As far as I know Malta wanted to join the Euro as do most of the eurozone members. I'm not advocating an Indy Scotland use the euro I favour our own currency. But in saying that the Euro suits a lot of countries a lot of the time its the best option for them. In this country UK we have been tainted (no pun there ) to the Euro the xenophobia of the Tories and the likes of the daily mail/express has made use of the euro toxic more for "land of hope and glory reasons rather than pragmatic one's. For me if the price of Independence was using the Euro fine. But before Noah jumps in I'd much rather prefer our own currency.

[noahrab]

Your issue dodging again Noah. What i posted was researched from alternative sources and they are facts. Facts taken from the EUs OWN Eurozone document, Sadly you won't find theses facts on the Unionist MSM as they don't suit their agenda. If its mandatory (is that what your saying ?) answer me this why didn't the UK ever join the Euro or Denmark or Sweden for that matter ?

Sweden signed up knowing they have to join the euro sometime.

Denmark and the U.K. had an opt out...which doesn't happen anymore.

If you researched from reliable sources you would know that.

[noahrab]

you should email that to the SNP headquarters as if they really want a second referendum they need to explain how everything will work instead of the nonsense fat eck came away with i.e. it'll be alright on the night. Which it won't.

Nail, head, hammer.

Those who want independence at any cost are the ones who have closed minds. Those open to independence but want to know the cost are called traitors, britnats blah blah blah.

Wee stuartie has said if having the euro was the price for independence he would happily accept it.

Wonder what would be too high a price to pay

[stewarty27]

This is all academic anyway an Independent Scotland which I believe will happen sooner than later will be in uncharted territory it may well be Scotland would retain its EU membership with terms and conditions already in place.. some EU officials have already said this may be possible. would we retain any of the UK's exemptions? That would have to be negotiated with the 26 member states of the EU

I suspect if and when this situation arises it will be down to the Scottish people to decide via Referendum. If the result is yes then its yes ..If its No the EU will respect that as they have done in Sweden. The EU Commission have publicly accepted that the decision will be made by Sweden. If the people of Sweden continue to say no, then Sweden will not be joining the euro.

Wonder no more Noah if the price of Scotland being Independent was Scotland and its people being worse off that would be too high a price to pay.

However I firmly believe and based on the information I have garnered over the years Scotland has the people the resources the know how and the right to be Independent. I also believe Scotland would be a more equal and fairer society its for those reasons I fight for Independence.