OT: Scottish Independence/Referendum

[ramAnag]

You really do chose to read the parts that suit you sometimes Ram59. How can you argue that I don't grasp 'the basic concept that you have to generate money to spend it' when I've already written, 'I fully accept that we need entrepreneurs, businessmen and taxes to pay for such facilities'? Why do you query if I go into masses of debt to give my family what they want when I've already recognised the need to 'live within one's means'?
My problem is that those very same entrepreneurs, small business owners - maybe you are one of them - often seem to resent that money has to be spent on providing services for society. A typical example...a small business owner of my acquaintance - a mechanic by any other name - often used to try and wind me up by asking when I was going to get a 'proper job' i.e. a job that produced rather than cost money. It's an idiotic premise but one which is all too common.

'Ramble'...Andy? How rude . I don't think Swale would ever suggest 'all old folks are racist'. Some, of course undoubtedly are...and there is also perhaps a tendency amongst the genuinely old to hark back to the 'good old days' of a different era which includes a covert level of relatively harmless racism e.g. OTR's recent harking back on another thread to 'eleven players whose names he could pronounce'. Harmless, funny but a hint of racism too.
I don't doubt for a moment what you say about the better resourced independent sector and the having 'room to breathe' factor, but I think we have to recognise that exactly the same differences exist within the state sector too i.e. the pressures that exist on both pupils and teachers in schools like Merrill and Sinfin are unlikely to be replicated in QEGS or Ecclesbourne.

[Andy_Faber]

'Ramble'...Andy? How rude . I don't think Swale would ever suggest 'all old folks are racist'. Some, of course undoubtedly are...and there is also perhaps a tendency amongst the genuinely old to hark back to the 'good old days' of a different era which includes a covert level of relatively harmless racism e.g. OTR's recent harking back on another thread to 'eleven players whose names he could pronounce'. Harmless, funny but a hint of racism too.
I don't doubt for a moment what you say about the better resourced independent sector and the having 'room to breathe' factor, but I think we have to recognise that exactly the same differences exist within the state sector too i.e. the pressures that exist on both pupils and teachers in schools like Merrill and Sinfin are unlikely to be replicated in QEGS or Ecclesbourne.

Using a word either you or RR invented a few weeks ago, IMO its no better being a casual xenophile than a casual xenophobe, there are too many of both

No argument that there is good and bad in independent and state sectors and despite playing the part of a 'guffawing weekend at Giles and Trish's Merc driving ****' for 15 years (I have been told) (the Merc bit is now true, judge the **** bit for yourself) I have remained in touch enough to realise that the best of state is probably better than the worst of independent but IMO like for like they are a different world.

[ramAnag]

Using a word either you or RR invented a few weeks ago, IMO its no better being a casual xenophile than a casual xenophobe, there are too many of both

No argument that there is good and bad in independent and state sectors and despite playing the part of a 'guffawing weekend at Giles and Trish's Merc driving ****' for 15 years (I have been told) (the Merc bit is now true, judge the **** bit for yourself) I have remained in touch enough to realise that the best of state is probably better than the worst of independent but IMO like for like they are a different world.

Sounds more like Roger than me...not guilty your honour.

[swaledale]

You don't appear to have grasped the basic concept that you have to generate money to spend it. If you became pm tomorrow, I suppose you would build a 100 new hospitals ,5000 new schools, treble all pensions, nationalise all transport and make it free to use and not worry about where the money is coming from. But everyone who used those services would say, 'what a great man, look how he's improved those services'

A truly good pm would be able to pay for what he spends. Labour inherited a great economic situation in 97 and was able to continue it for a few years until it started over spending 5 or 6 years before the financial crash.

Tell me, do you go into masses of debt to give your family everything they want, even though you haven't got any idea how you're going to pay it off?

Your making the akk to common mistake of equating a personal or household budget and whats a sensible way to run it to a countries budget and how that works or indeed how finance works with companies.

The statement that Labour busted the economy and ran up debt 5 or 6 years before the financial crash is not true its perfectly reasonable to borrow (especially at low interest rates) to fund capital investment, countries and indeed companies do it all the time and repay from income it suits the Tories to spout this nonsense as if Labour was like a spendthrift family yet do exactly the same - indeed if they are to be believed are prepared to risk economic decline in the pursuit of a hard Brexit because apparently immigration is more important to the people who voted leave than economic prosperity!! Not sure they will think that when reality strikes but hey ho.

The austerity measures were too hard and just an excuse to make the poor (including many who voted leave) and those with no influence pay the cost. The alternative to increase taxes for at least the higher earners and actually crack down on tax avoidance and evasion may just have been fairer, but it seems bashing "scroungers" or the so called undeserving " poor is more popular.

Investment in capital infrastructure would be more sensible and create real jobs across the country a fact that even Trump grasps, it also boosts the economy through the supply chain and guess what the country has railways, roads, sewers, power stations and sewers that will be fit for decades to come and so again improve the country's economy.

Unfortunately governments are short termists and whilst Labour in the 90's did try they also made mistakes, the Public private finance initiatives (PFI) being a case in point and now crippling the NHS and education sectors (they were a Tory invention to take cost off the public balance sheet).

[swaledale]

You may not agree, but IMO 'a generation that feels threatened by foreigners' is a coded way of saying 'all old folks are racists', a massive slur on a big portion of the population and in the past (but thank God no longer) a great way of taking the higher ground in a discussion

You have some interesting perspectives on schooling, and your tactics to give your children a good education are valid, and something a lot of my friends did. You did make the point further up this ramble though, that you saw and benefitted from the favourable impact of investment in schools by a Labour administration and how that has deteriorated - well IMO that extrapolates though to the massively better-funded (and unfairly so maybe, I personally question the validity of their charitable status) and therefore better-resourced independant sector. Taking a quote from a teacher-friend of mine, she says the difference between the two sectors is that there is 'room to breathe' in the independant sector.

Well you still haven't answered my questions which were serious because I didnt have a clue what you were on about. No Andy a generation that feels threatened by foreigners (ironically many of whom seem to lament the fall of the empire when it was us going over to foreign countries, taking their land and resources and telling them what to do) was not implied xenophobia, but a comment on those who would wish to stop change, turn the clock back, halt progress and return to imagined halycon days - a xenophobe is someone like Tricky who from his posts has a hatred of anyone who isn't English - a hatred of foreigners is xenophobia, a fear or a dislike due to unfamilairity is not the same.

You've answered my query re private versus state schools as has Anag, I do understand why someone who lived in a so called deprived area might do it, but many people I know avoid perfectly good state schools and nearly bankrupt themselves for no good reason that I can discern, their choice certainly (and I agree with you on the charitable status) I spent the money i saved from sending my kids to state schools taking them all over the world on proper travels which both broadened their horizons and gave them a perspective on how fortunate we are compared to others.

[Andy_Faber]

Well you still haven't answered my questions which were serious because I didnt have a clue what you were on about. No Andy a generation that feels threatened by foreigners (ironically many of whom seem to lament the fall of the empire when it was us going over to foreign countries, taking their land and resources and telling them what to do) was not implied xenophobia, but a comment on those who would wish to stop change, turn the clock back, halt progress and return to imagined halycon days - a xenophobe is someone like Tricky who from his posts has a hatred of anyone who isn't English - a hatred of foreigners is xenophobia, a fear or a dislike due to unfamilairity is not the same.

You've answered my query re private versus state schools as has Anag, I do understand why someone who lived in a so called deprived area might do it, but many people I know avoid perfectly good state schools and nearly bankrupt themselves for no good reason that I can discern, their choice certainly (and I agree with you on the charitable status) I spent the money i saved from sending my kids to state schools taking them all over the world on proper travels which both broadened their horizons and gave them a perspective on how fortunate we are compared to others.

I'm not sure stopping or wanting to stop change is a crime. And wanting to stop the change associated with a rapidly accelerating non-indigenous population is one I can identify with.

Regarding 'people I know avoid perfectly good state schools and nearly bankrupt themselves for no good reason that I can discern', I'm not going to get in a spat on the subject but I'd suggest that you can't discern what you haven't experienced/witnessed. Good for you for investing in your children as you did, but I wasn't trying to make a personal point, and what you say sort of proves my point that YOU had to do it, such life experiences are ingrained in independently schooled pupils

[ramAnag]

I'm not sure stopping or wanting to stop change is a crime. And wanting to stop the change associated with a rapidly accelerating non-indigenous population is one I can identify with.

Regarding 'people I know avoid perfectly good state schools and nearly bankrupt themselves for no good reason that I can discern', I'm not going to get in a spat on the subject but I'd suggest that you can't discern what you haven't experienced/witnessed. Good for you for investing in your children as you did, but I wasn't trying to make a personal point, and what you say sort of proves my point that YOU had to do it, such life experiences are ingrained in independently schooled pupils

Have to query that last point AF. I'm completely with and share Swale's experience on the point he makes about being able to afford to provide his kids with better experiences precisely because they went to a good state school and he didn't have to make the financial 'sacrifices' you refer to. All that is just a matter of choice, but - and I do have some experience of the independent sector - I don't understand what you mean by...'such life experiences are ingrained in independently schooled pupils'. How?

[roger_ramjet]

Sounds more like Roger than me...not guilty your honour.

Nor me....maybe it was that man of letters R4J

[Ram59]

Your making the akk to common mistake of equating a personal or household budget and whats a sensible way to run it to a countries budget and how that works or indeed how finance works with companies.

The statement that Labour busted the economy and ran up debt 5 or 6 years before the financial crash is not true its perfectly reasonable to borrow (especially at low interest rates) to fund capital investment, countries and indeed companies do it all the time and repay from income it suits the Tories to spout this nonsense as if Labour was like a spendthrift family yet do exactly the same - indeed if they are to be believed are prepared to risk economic decline in the pursuit of a hard Brexit because apparently immigration is more important to the people who voted leave than economic prosperity!! Not sure they will think that when reality strikes but hey ho.

The austerity measures were too hard and just an excuse to make the poor (including many who voted leave) and those with no influence pay the cost. The alternative to increase taxes for at least the higher earners and actually crack down on tax avoidance and evasion may just have been fairer, but it seems bashing "scroungers" or the so called undeserving " poor is more popular.

Investment in capital infrastructure would be more sensible and create real jobs across the country a fact that even Trump grasps, it also boosts the economy through the supply chain and guess what the country has railways, roads, sewers, power stations and sewers that will be fit for decades to come and so again improve the country's economy.

Unfortunately governments are short termists and whilst Labour in the 90's did try they also made mistakes, the Public private finance initiatives (PFI) being a case in point and now crippling the NHS and education sectors (they were a Tory invention to take cost off the public balance sheet).

I'm all in favour of borrowing to improve income. Labour were good at the borrowing part, but rubbish at improving the income. If they had been a company, they would have gone bankrupt.

[Andy_Faber]

Nor me....maybe it was that man of letters R4J

I think I'm starting to invent my own reality. Now where's that application form to become an MP?